tannji

hello all....
I am a long-time datsun nut... been without one for a long while, but picked up a 240Z with sbc 350 in june. its fun.... but missing the feel of an engine that winds out above 4500rpm.
So my girlfriend mentions that she saw a Z for sale cheap... just needs a new rotor..... and I should go look at it... = ) Of course it wasnt a Z, but it was in pretty good shape, for an RX7. Apparently, the front rotor went, and the guy isnt feeling the love... I can get it for $200. No major defects, some peeling clearcoat near the headlamps, kinda dusty, and of course, needs a rebuild.
I need some input, opinion, advice, ect... Should I get it, what is it worth, What can I expect out of it, ect.
It is a 1990, NA, didnt notice the precise model other than that. I take it that it is a "S5", with the 13b... I think...? = ) I am used to talking about S30's with L28's, so I am not too certain on the mazda or wankel lingo yet. It is 5sp, looks pretty nice all around, nothing visually wrong, sunroof works fine, headlights do their thing, wipers work except for the intermittent, (thinking a switch) no visible rust in the normal areas.
I should get it and rebuild or replace the motor, except I know I wont be satisfied.... Suggest some options for me. Should I grab a "20b" for $3000? crate for $1700, turbo crate for $2500? What is the reality of reliability, how much does it depend on me for TLC, and how much is subject to the whims of the gods? Can I get appreciable power going the N/A route, or do I have to go turbo... and is there a reliable turbo solution available? Iwould prefer that it was the GTU body style... but where do I go for quality aftermarket body trimmings for a 90 RX7? (got pics?) If I do go with some extra ponies.... what are the known weak points existing in the car? Tranny, Diff, U-joints, Clutch.... What is this cars rep for handling, and does the suspension upgrade well?
To be honest, my major concern is reliability. I have built a few Z cars, and while rust was an issue, you couldnt fault the power plant, or drive train for that matter. I have owned several Z's south of 300k, with no major repairs on their record.
I am open to reading links to stuff, but as I am starting from scratch, I do not have enough base knowledge to separate fact from personal preference or bias...

Thanks in advance, and congrats on the cool forum.... there are so many crap places out there, its nice to see a real community once in a while....

tannji

krazykoncepts

well welcome to the club
you seem to know a fair bit about rx7's. ultimatly you will have to make the choice yourself. However for 200 you cant really go wrong. Assuming everything else is in good order and all you need is a rebuild. As for the power issue. Obviously if you go turbo you will have more power. Yet if you are going to rebuild the engine i suggest you streetport it while your at it. A streetported na with exhaust (header) will be pretty good power wise. yet then again dont count on alot of reliability.

Sesshoumaru

iTrader: (1)

you can tell me where it is

20b is quite an extensive swap. You can look around to get more info. For that u def need faith.

tannji

thanks guys.... any thing you can tell me about the 20b? has mazda ever made a reliable higher hp rotary? I think that thing runs about 300-320hp as it sits, and I could live with it, and would be tempted to undergo the hassles of the transplant if the end product was worth it. I wouldnt mind getting into a turbo, even if it meant picking up the engine internal skills I have avoided thus far. Just bought a new house, and am putting up a 3 car garage next spring.... most of the tools are cheap.. just need to start reading up on the tech, and hopefully hook up with a local wankel guru... = )

tannji

13bpower

Forget about the 20b swap. It would be cheaper to put ANY other engine in it. I do mean ANY.

13b turbo will give you as much power as you will need. The streetported N/A engine will have enough power for most. AND the fun of spinning the engine to 8000 rpms is a big plus.

steve

tannji

OK, cool.... now what does the car have in it now? LOL, as I said, I am not completely up to speed on the jargon yet, I have heard the car called the "S5"... but I am only assuming it currently has a 13b.. is that the stock motor for a second gen? What kind of horse are the ported N/A's pulling, and how reliable are those setups?

tannji

13bpower

Streetported non-turbo engines (13b/stock engine) with all the bolt ons could be pulling around 250 flywheel HP. Your s5 (89-91) in stock form would have 160 hp. It would be just as reliable as a stock engine. It's ability to pass a emissions test would be hindered greatly.

The swap to the 13bt (turbo engine) would cost alot more and/or take alot more time to complete. But you could have a 350 hp car that can pass emissions (with stock ports). or a 450 hp car that won't pass emissions.
steve

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

Some info for you.

The 86-88 cars are known as s4, 89-91 are s5. In each series, there are both turbo and nonturbo models, so there are actually 4 2gen models/engines. THe turbo cars use a large/HD drivetrain, the NA (nonturbo) cars use a lighter, weaker drivetrain. ALL turbos were 5sp in the US, but some NA's were automatic. Automatics suck major *** in these cars, btw.

The nonturbo engines make about 145-160hp at the crank, and turbo engines 185-200. THe nonturbo engines, in modified form, make power all the way to the revlimiter, either 8 or 9krpm depending on year. The experience of driving the NA motor is very nice, but most people serious about power go turbo up front. The reasonable streetable stock efi/computer limit on nonturbo cars is 200-210hp, while the same limit on the turbo engines with stock efi/computer is about 250-300 depending on supporting mods. IT should be noted that a rebuilt, modded NA motor is bulletproof and can sit on 9krpms all day long with no sweat, while a mildly modified turbo engine is always open to problems with fuel/boost/ignition. IF you just want to have fun and drive hard, go with a modded NA, but if you have to have real power and don;t mind working on the car, go turbo.

As for alternate engines, thatis a whole other topic, but basically it requires real money to do such swaps, and Im not sure the end result justifies the effort, but that is just my view.

Here is some info on a turbo swap (2nd gen engine only):

www.rotaryresurrection.com/turboconversion.htm

Finally, there are no longblock crate motors being sold anywhere that I am aware of. What you get for the prices you listed above is a shortblock with no accessories or manifolds. So, if you want to convert, that is not a real option for you.

FWIW, I recommend you go with a rebuilt, ported, no emissions, straight exhaust, open intake, nonturbo engine as a startout. Run that for a year or 2 while you modify the rest of the car to your tastes, then makethe (more informed) decision whether or not you need or want to convert. You can always recoup your investment in the engine rebuild by selling it at that time. I sold the NA engine from my convertible, rebuilt with 4k miles on it, for the same price I sell a rebuilt block brand new.

If you decide to go with a rebuild, let me know, check out the rest of the page at www.rotaryresurrection.com.

tannji

looks like I came to the right place.... and I will be checking out your site shortly = ). I appreciate the input... oddly enough, sounds pretty similar to the advice I would be giving a Z noobie, tho I get the feeling that the Z platform is a little less complicated outof the box. One last question...(yeah, right) Any comparison on handling between Z and RX7? With light upgrades, the Z was a great handling car, loads of fun, and predictable. Whats the low down on RX7? Does it handle as well, and cheaply upgradeable?
thanks again, guys.

tannji

Rxmfn7

iTrader: (4)

Ive always been a fan of the older 240s, its been downhill from there Ive even looked at a few, but cant find one that isnt rusted through..

Anyway, as far as handling goes. If you think the Z handles great (which it does, ive driven a few, from 240s, to late 80s 300ZXs.) then you are in for a treat when you drive the Rx-7 The rx-7 with stock suspension will outhandle your Z , and when modified its just great. I scare people the speed I can take turns and transitions in my rx-7, they are just one of the best handling cars out there, hands down.

hpram99

the rx7's do very well at handling, I would say this is one of mazda's strongpoints, as it's goal was to develop a light agile car. I found the stock setup on my '90 convertible (which is a lot heavier than any other model) has a pretty stiff setup with some nice beefy rollbars, the only weakpoint on it is the tires (cheapo's). It corners pretty damn flat.

slow87turbo

they handle verry well right out of the box. your best bet i have seen people doo is springs and struts. and new bushings all the way around. the one thing about the 7 is there is a built in "rear steer" it changes the caster/camber in a corner depending on load. if you are not used to this it can be verry tricky to learn out on the road. your best bet if you decide to keep this "quirk" is to go to a large empty parking lot and drive around in a tight circle you will feel it and know what i am talking about when it starts working. but good luck if you decide to come to the dark side. and good luck.


ej

Rotary Racer

Z Cars, 510’s, hell most all Datsun’s are sweet cars. Here is a thought do what a friend and I are doing and put a rotary in a Z car . Check it out this was our first test fit of one in his 240: http://hybridz.org/phpBB2/viewtopic....391&highlight=

- Dana

tannji

hey there.... Actually, I read Auxillary's post on HybridZ already, and his mention of the 20b on ebay was what sparked my interest in the 90 RX7 available to me locally.... I am still pondering obviously.... but am thinking I should either pass and throw the LT1 in my Z for the same money.... or grab a rebuild and drive this RX7 for a while to see how I like it.... and go from there. (lol, and we all have a good idea where that path leads, right?) I am having some severe second thoughts all the way around.... Love my Z... but it is auto... and TPI.... how much of my attachment is sentimental? = ) I have always wanted a mean little turbo tho... and havent ever owned one for an extended amount of time.
Anyone interested in a 71 240Z with TPI SBC, runs great, gets mid-20's mpg, good body? = )

tannji

rx-7s rock

Give the RX-7 a try, I know you'll love it. Personally I would go with a TII motor and tranny swap.

venomrx7

I like my N/a just as much as any turbo. Streetport, and Atkins seals, straight exhaust(no cats) and a few other things made the car great. I also have a Tokico suspension and rear steer eliminated and I couldnpt believe the improvement, but if you want to road race or anything leave the rear steer, I stopped mine so I could drift better.

tannji

OK, what exactly is the rear steer? Sounds like something I would dislike on sheer general principle alone, lol.

Also, If I decide to go with N/A for now, and upgrade at a later date... what kind of scratch am I looking at for the turbo basics? I will probably turbo it, and then as I learn more and become mechanically familiar with the rotary, start planning an upgrade as a package... For those that have done a turbo the long way, what is your biggest regret, and something you would address properly the next time around? Anything I should know as I am rebuilding a T-shortblock? I am not loaded with cash, but have the ability to pick up non-essentials here and there without hurting the household budget. = ) Also, LSD's are rare and precious in the Z world.... and also not necessarily the cure for the common cold either. For A-to-B speed, they were nice, but affected handling in ways I wasnt always happy with. Whats the verdict on the RX7 side... and how hard are they to come by///$$$ ?
I am having a blast just learning all this and I dont even have a place to put the car, lol. I might have to sell the Z and a Scoobie just to have a decent parking spot for it. I stopped by to look at it again today, and it is pretty nice, maybe nicer than I remembered, and the guy is very motivated to sell, especially to someone who isnt looking for a beater or a racecar. (I didnt mention that my other car was a V8 hybrid, lol) Anyone know someone who would like a fast and well put-together 240Z? = )
tannji

venomrx7

Its not really rear steer like the new chevys but more of a control aid. It turns the rear wheels minimally and only when you would loose traction in any other car from pushing to fast through a turn. Its really cool and all but since I drift, the object is to loose traction not keep it.

And for turbo info go to www.snyper.net/RX-7/ and check out his. He has pics from start to finish and his conversion is awesome.

tannji

Thankyou.... will do so now...

tannji

WoW!! sweet, I started gettin a familiar itch halfway thru his site... and the vid was very cool. I have a major problem tho..... can I get the car to breathe nice without sounding like civic with a fart can? I mean.... such a cool car... but I cant stand the sound..... can anything be done to make it a little more manly..... or at least not suggest that I am a ricer who never outgrew New Kids on the Block? No disrespect to that guy, loved the car completely..... but the sound was like scratching a chalkboard for me.
tannji

tannji

OK, it was late last night for the last post.... hope I didnt insult anyone with that post on the exhaust note.... BUt I am still curious about what various people have experienced as far as obtaining a more "manly" sound.... = )

Also, I have decided to take the plunge and grab that 1990 RX7.... just havent told the Girlfriend yet.... might need some help with that as well, lol.
Any thoughts on the best manual to use to read up on the car? I have usually liked the newer Haines over the Chilton, but what else is considered good here? I am looking for someone to talk me out of rebuilding the motor myself.... how much will the actual parts run for a standard rebuild, and if I am willing to take it slow and study, is it still worth taking it to someone like RotaryResurrection for the assurance and warrantee? I have all winter... but I am certain I could come up with plenty of other projects to occupy myself while Mr. RotRes does right by my motor. not to mention my garage is an old, separate, non-insulated shack, lol.

tannji

venomrx7

Haynes!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have mine and love it, it has saved my rex a million times. And the vid you watched was without mufflers I think. Mine has freeflow exhaust and sounds pretty good (not rice) and a standard rebould isn't that expensive but I reccomend going all out a porting while your in there, you wouldn't believe the improvement. I am about to rebuild the motor from my parts car and I am going all out.

Glad to see another rotorhead (at least soon to be)
I'll give a list of cool sites to help you out in your research in a minute.

venomrx7

Rotary Engine Illustrated : tells you about the inner workings and cycles of the rotary engine. Check out the Animations and Rotary 101.
Club FC3S : another forum with a lot of helpful people that will answer any question you might have. They are another thing that has saved my car a million times.

These should get you started and I'll see what else I can come up with.

rusaccord

Where exactly in Iowa are you that $200 rx7s appear to you like that? Good luck with the Mazda.

tannji

LOL, I am in Davenport.... and my girlfriend told me there was a Z for sale that need a tranny... and it was nicer than mine, because it was newer and had nicer paint.... turns out it was the 90 RX7 GXL (?) and it had a bad rotor.... If she would have told me it was an RX7, I wouldnt even have looked.... I have always been a little rotary-curious tho.... The funny thing is... there seems to have always been a little rivalry between the Z owners and the RX7 owners... and I have always been very loyal to the Z brand..... but the single worst wuppin I ever recieved was at the hand of not one, but two (indentical) black RX7's, on the same day. I lived in Long Island, and saw a porche 911 turbo, with the "whale tale" they used to sport. I had just gotten my V8 Z on the road and haddnt been beat yet, so I was pretty confident. I jumped out to about a car and a half lead..... and then got blown away.... just like that. I could feel a buzz in my chest as the car went by.... Really fast. I caught up to the car later in the parking lot of a club.... and chatted.... turned out it was a tt... with a sweet 911 body kit, looked very authentic, especially as it was passing you on the road. up close, it looked a little off, but I couldnt put a finger one why, exactly. The owner congratulated me on the lead I pulled on him... (I thot that was a nice touch, made me feel a little better, lol) I about fell over when I found out it was indeed a rotary... had no clue till that point that a mazda had that kind of potential. Later that same night.... I got passed again by a "911 turbo" I laughed and waved at him at the next light, and it was somebody completely different!! Turns out it was the buddy of the first guy.... and he was looking for a "pretty slick 240Z, whose owner thinks is pretty fast".... got a little humble pie that night, lol. Havent personally seen a comparable RX7 since. I am trying not to think to much about it... dont really want to fall into that kind of money pit just quite yet.
tannji