S4 Won't start
11-15-09, 09:48 AM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
S4 Won't start
Have gone putting my Rx7 S4 back to stock. A new stock engine bought and mounted. Now I have problems with the starting.
My harness was modified by the old owner of the new engine and there is two plugs missing. But I don't know what they are for. So my troubleshooting are wasted.
The fuelpump goes on when i turn to "start", and keep going til I turn ignition completely off. The starter relay klicks, but doesn't send any power to the starter. I have tested both the battery and the starter and it works fine. Have also exchanged the starter relay.
My question, is the problem the loss of the two plugs or is there any other problem? Is there any fuse for the starter or something? Haven't any documents about all the fuses and could find any here either.
Posting a picture of another harness with marked plugs that's missing.
Feeling helpless...
Thanks...
(sorry for my english, from sweden)
Regards Tegheim
My harness was modified by the old owner of the new engine and there is two plugs missing. But I don't know what they are for. So my troubleshooting are wasted.
The fuelpump goes on when i turn to "start", and keep going til I turn ignition completely off. The starter relay klicks, but doesn't send any power to the starter. I have tested both the battery and the starter and it works fine. Have also exchanged the starter relay.
My question, is the problem the loss of the two plugs or is there any other problem? Is there any fuse for the starter or something? Haven't any documents about all the fuses and could find any here either.
Posting a picture of another harness with marked plugs that's missing.
Feeling helpless...
Thanks...
(sorry for my english, from sweden)
Regards Tegheim
11-15-09, 11:03 PM
#3
those two big plugs are very important. that's where the ecu gets its power from, as well as the CAS and coil wiring.
they connect the driver side harness to the passenger side of the engine harness, essentially.
as for the starter...try jumping it with a screwdriver(from signal to pos post) if it turns then it's a problem with the signal wire, which is pretty common on these cars. i ran a new wire from the ignition switch to the starter and that fixed it.
they connect the driver side harness to the passenger side of the engine harness, essentially.
as for the starter...try jumping it with a screwdriver(from signal to pos post) if it turns then it's a problem with the signal wire, which is pretty common on these cars. i ran a new wire from the ignition switch to the starter and that fixed it.
11-15-09, 11:37 PM
#4
Senior Member
Thread Starter
those two big plugs are very important. that's where the ecu gets its power from, as well as the CAS and coil wiring.
they connect the driver side harness to the passenger side of the engine harness, essentially.
as for the starter...try jumping it with a screwdriver(from signal to pos post) if it turns then it's a problem with the signal wire, which is pretty common on these cars. i ran a new wire from the ignition switch to the starter and that fixed it.
they connect the driver side harness to the passenger side of the engine harness, essentially.
as for the starter...try jumping it with a screwdriver(from signal to pos post) if it turns then it's a problem with the signal wire, which is pretty common on these cars. i ran a new wire from the ignition switch to the starter and that fixed it.
I hopeyou got that they arre the plugs that is put i the kickpanel on the right side. All three ECU-plugs are connected.
As I said, I have testes both the battery and the starter. I works perfect. I have connected the solenoid trough a switch and then i spins just like i should.
The problem is the solenoid signal from starter-relay to starter, it's missing.
11-16-09, 12:22 AM
#5
ah yes, forgot about the 3rd plug. that was my mistake...the CAS and power and such come from that third plug, my previous statement is false.
that part of the harness wil be the same between turbo and non, except for the extra plug that goes to the knock control box on a turbo harness.
that part of the harness wil be the same between turbo and non, except for the extra plug that goes to the knock control box on a turbo harness.
11-16-09, 01:01 AM
#6
also...back to the problem at hand. the starter relay causes problems, that's why i bypassed it on my car.
once you get that taken care of...if the computer is getting voltage and the CAS is spinning, you should be getting spark/injector pulses. if this is happening your tach needle should be shaking while you crank it over.
if it still won't run check that fuel is flowing through the fuel rails in the right direction, or if it's a new motor it may need a bit of oil in the plug holes to help with initial compression.
once you get that taken care of...if the computer is getting voltage and the CAS is spinning, you should be getting spark/injector pulses. if this is happening your tach needle should be shaking while you crank it over.
if it still won't run check that fuel is flowing through the fuel rails in the right direction, or if it's a new motor it may need a bit of oil in the plug holes to help with initial compression.
11-16-09, 04:07 AM
#7
Senior Member
Thread Starter
No, sorry, maybe my mistake of explaning. The engine spins perfectly when I hook the starter solenoid with extern power. But not with key-turn.
The fuelpump work perfect when I turn the key.
Do you have any wiring diagram of the two plugs that should be connected behind the kickpanel on right side? Or if someone knows what they are for. These two are the one's missing. Just make clear that all three in the ECU is connected.
My english is not very good, so I hope we understand eachother.
The fuelpump work perfect when I turn the key.
Do you have any wiring diagram of the two plugs that should be connected behind the kickpanel on right side? Or if someone knows what they are for. These two are the one's missing. Just make clear that all three in the ECU is connected.
My english is not very good, so I hope we understand eachother.
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11-16-09, 07:38 AM
#8
Are you sure the harness you have in the picture is the same harness you are putting in the car? If I recall correctly, those plugs are the ECU plugs. If you didn't have them then you couldn't plug anything into the ECU.
Also, check the spade connector on the starter for +12V when you turn the key to start.
Also, check the spade connector on the starter for +12V when you turn the key to start.
11-16-09, 09:58 AM
#9
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Are you sure the harness you have in the picture is the same harness you are putting in the car? If I recall correctly, those plugs are the ECU plugs. If you didn't have them then you couldn't plug anything into the ECU.
Also, check the spade connector on the starter for +12V when you turn the key to start.
Also, check the spade connector on the starter for +12V when you turn the key to start.
What I wonder is what the REDmarked are for.
And back to the starter, I have told you all several times that the starter work perfectly fine if you force it with a external cable on the solenoid input (spade connector). And the problem is just what you are saying, there is NO power on the spade connector when i turn the key, thats why I started this thread. Why don't you belive me there eihter?
Sorry, but I get very frustrated when you can't read all my info before you answer. Very thankful for your help, but please, read all my info and problem first. I may be from Sweden with bad english, but I'm not stupid...
11-16-09, 10:08 AM
#10
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Maybe should be absolutley clear that the actual harness on the picture is just that, a Picture that shows witch connectors I miss. That is NOT my harness on the picture.
11-16-09, 01:11 PM
#12
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Read the info in the link below and see if it pertains to your problem.
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...gnition+switch
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...gnition+switch
11-16-09, 02:00 PM
#14
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Have founded out what the connection I'm missing is called in the wiring diagram, but cant understand what it's for.
It's called FEM-01 ( Front to EMission Control -01) And I now only miss 6 cables in that connection.
I upload a picture of the connect-pin.
The ones that are INSIDE the RED circle I miss. All others are connected.
Someone smart who can help me find out what they are doing?
11-16-09, 04:32 PM
#15
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Maybe I'm in the wrong side of the car looking. Remembered now that when I ran my Autronic before, I never modified the start-cables. They have nothing to do with the ECU and so on. Not just for crank I mean.
How can I bypass the starter relay just for a test to see if that's the problem?
How can I bypass the starter relay just for a test to see if that's the problem?
11-16-09, 05:19 PM
#16
Maybe I'm in the wrong side of the car looking. Remembered now that when I ran my Autronic before, I never modified the start-cables. They have nothing to do with the ECU and so on. Not just for crank I mean.
How can I bypass the starter relay just for a test to see if that's the problem?
How can I bypass the starter relay just for a test to see if that's the problem?
"The Interlock switch (on a series four) is way up there at the very top of the clutch pedal. It has two wires going to it. Disconnect that plug and jumper both those wire together to bypass the interlock switch.
If the starter still does not work, then go to the Starter Cut Relay. It's near the Main Relay. Lets pretend you car has no Theft Protection. Then the relay will not be there, BUT there will be the connector that goes to that relay and IT will have a JUMPER PLUG inserted into it. This jumper plug is BLUE on a series four car and hard to miss. Pull that plug apart and set the jumper part to the side. Then take a piece of wire and jumper 12v from the battery to the black/white wire in the connector. The starter should spin, proving that length of wire is good to the starter (put the car out of gear first).
If the starter spins, then look at that Starter Cut Relay again. It has two Black/Green wires in it. ONE of them goes to the Interlock switch you just jumpered. Ohm out that wire from the Starter Cut Relay plug to the Interlock switch.
Now say your car has a Starter Cut Relay in the car, unlike the above scenario. Not good. the best thing you could do is remove the relay and toss it on the bench in the shed. Then get a short piece of wire and put two blade type connectors on each end. Put one end of the wire in the black/white socket on the Starter Cut Relay plug and put the other end into the socket for the Black/Green wire that goes to the starter solenoid. Now start the car.
You might be able to just pull the connector off the Theft Protection Unit under the passengers dash and accomplish the same thing. In that case leave the Starter Cut Relay in place and make no jumper wire.
All the above is for a series four car. I've no series five schematic, but I'm betting they work the same. "
11-16-09, 11:35 PM
#17
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Okey, understod the most of it.
One thing I don't get is the position of the StarterCutRelay. On my car it's up on the left side, between the coil, firewall and the brake-servo. In his explanation it sounds like it should be under the dash. I thougth it were there the Main Relay was put? Sorry for man confusion...
I will try this later. Now in sweden the clock is 06.35 in the morning, and we have to work
One thing I don't get is the position of the StarterCutRelay. On my car it's up on the left side, between the coil, firewall and the brake-servo. In his explanation it sounds like it should be under the dash. I thougth it were there the Main Relay was put? Sorry for man confusion...
I will try this later. Now in sweden the clock is 06.35 in the morning, and we have to work
11-17-09, 12:49 AM
#18
His explanation talks about "two " different relays, the interlock relay(located under dash) and the "starter cut relay" (located next to the main relay).
Understand?
Taken from previous text:
"The Interlock switch (on a series four) is way up there at the very top of the clutch pedal. It has two wires going to it.
If the starter still does not work, then go to the Starter Cut Relay. It's near the Main Relay.
Understand?
Taken from previous text:
"The Interlock switch (on a series four) is way up there at the very top of the clutch pedal. It has two wires going to it.
If the starter still does not work, then go to the Starter Cut Relay. It's near the Main Relay.
11-17-09, 02:19 AM
#19
Senior Member
Thread Starter
His explanation talks about "two " different relays, the interlock relay(located under dash) and the "starter cut relay" (located next to the main relay).
Understand?
Taken from previous text:
"The Interlock switch (on a series four) is way up there at the very top of the clutch pedal. It has two wires going to it.
If the starter still does not work, then go to the Starter Cut Relay. It's near the Main Relay.
Understand?
Taken from previous text:
"The Interlock switch (on a series four) is way up there at the very top of the clutch pedal. It has two wires going to it.
If the starter still does not work, then go to the Starter Cut Relay. It's near the Main Relay.
Any picture of the start-cut-relay maybe?
11-17-09, 04:06 AM
#20
Senior Member
Thread Starter
As said, starting to get worried that we talk about two different relays. Found a picture of an enginebay and post it to. Is this the starting relay?!
If not, where is it?! I don't know where the main-relay is located.
If not, where is it?! I don't know where the main-relay is located.
11-17-09, 07:53 AM
#21
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No, that's the MAIN RELAY.
Only cars that came with THEFT PROTECTION have the Starter Cut Relay. That applys to series four cars. I'm fairly sure series five are the same.
The ORANGE CONNECTORS on the EM harness carry power to the fuel injectors, cruise control, wipers, boost sensor, water temp sensor, the two small alternator wires on a non turbo, neutral switch wires, knock sensor wire on a turbo car, fuel pump resistor wire for turbo cars only and other stuff like that.
In your post number fourteen above, the four wires to the far right are just wiper wires. The next two inboard of those four are the alternator wires for a non turbo harness. Those two wires, B/W and W/B don't exist on a TURBO car. On a stock turbo car the alternator wires are in the ENGINE harness on the far left of the car.
Using a turbo EM harness on a Non turbo car results in these types of problems. FEM means this is a connector that mates the FRONT hanress to the EMISSIONS hanress on the engine i.e FEM-01 or FEM-02.
Starter wires.............just pull the small trigger wire off the starter solenoid. Put the key to START and see if batt voltage shows up on the meter when the key is HELD to START. IF it does, then either the solenoid is bad or not enough current is going thru the start circuit to the starter solenoid. So with the car on jacks and out of gear, get a long screw driver and make contact b/t the small blade on the starter solenoid and the large cable on the solenoid with the shank of the screwdriver. The starter and engine should turn over proving the solenoid is good.
Seems your car has a lot of wiring that is not stock and some of the stock wiring is missing PLUS the use of turbo EM hanress used on a non turbo car. I kinda know why people use a turbo EM hanress on a non turbo car. Its usually because they are ignorant on how the wiring runs in the harnesses. The online wiring diagrams show the wiring differences in the electrical plugs b/t turbo and non turbo cars.
Only cars that came with THEFT PROTECTION have the Starter Cut Relay. That applys to series four cars. I'm fairly sure series five are the same.
The ORANGE CONNECTORS on the EM harness carry power to the fuel injectors, cruise control, wipers, boost sensor, water temp sensor, the two small alternator wires on a non turbo, neutral switch wires, knock sensor wire on a turbo car, fuel pump resistor wire for turbo cars only and other stuff like that.
In your post number fourteen above, the four wires to the far right are just wiper wires. The next two inboard of those four are the alternator wires for a non turbo harness. Those two wires, B/W and W/B don't exist on a TURBO car. On a stock turbo car the alternator wires are in the ENGINE harness on the far left of the car.
Using a turbo EM harness on a Non turbo car results in these types of problems. FEM means this is a connector that mates the FRONT hanress to the EMISSIONS hanress on the engine i.e FEM-01 or FEM-02.
Starter wires.............just pull the small trigger wire off the starter solenoid. Put the key to START and see if batt voltage shows up on the meter when the key is HELD to START. IF it does, then either the solenoid is bad or not enough current is going thru the start circuit to the starter solenoid. So with the car on jacks and out of gear, get a long screw driver and make contact b/t the small blade on the starter solenoid and the large cable on the solenoid with the shank of the screwdriver. The starter and engine should turn over proving the solenoid is good.
Seems your car has a lot of wiring that is not stock and some of the stock wiring is missing PLUS the use of turbo EM hanress used on a non turbo car. I kinda know why people use a turbo EM hanress on a non turbo car. Its usually because they are ignorant on how the wiring runs in the harnesses. The online wiring diagrams show the wiring differences in the electrical plugs b/t turbo and non turbo cars.
11-17-09, 10:03 AM
#22
Senior Member
Thread Starter
No, that's the MAIN RELAY.
Only cars that came with THEFT PROTECTION have the Starter Cut Relay. That applys to series four cars. I'm fairly sure series five are the same.
The ORANGE CONNECTORS on the EM harness carry power to the fuel injectors, cruise control, wipers, boost sensor, water temp sensor, the two small alternator wires on a non turbo, neutral switch wires, knock sensor wire on a turbo car, fuel pump resistor wire for turbo cars only and other stuff like that.
In your post number fourteen above, the four wires to the far right are just wiper wires. The next two inboard of those four are the alternator wires for a non turbo harness. Those two wires, B/W and W/B don't exist on a TURBO car. On a stock turbo car the alternator wires are in the ENGINE harness on the far left of the car.
Using a turbo EM harness on a Non turbo car results in these types of problems. FEM means this is a connector that mates the FRONT hanress to the EMISSIONS hanress on the engine i.e FEM-01 or FEM-02.
Starter wires.............just pull the small trigger wire off the starter solenoid. Put the key to START and see if batt voltage shows up on the meter when the key is HELD to START. IF it does, then either the solenoid is bad or not enough current is going thru the start circuit to the starter solenoid. So with the car on jacks and out of gear, get a long screw driver and make contact b/t the small blade on the starter solenoid and the large cable on the solenoid with the shank of the screwdriver. The starter and engine should turn over proving the solenoid is good.
Seems your car has a lot of wiring that is not stock and some of the stock wiring is missing PLUS the use of turbo EM hanress used on a non turbo car. I kinda know why people use a turbo EM hanress on a non turbo car. Its usually because they are ignorant on how the wiring runs in the harnesses. The online wiring diagrams show the wiring differences in the electrical plugs b/t turbo and non turbo cars.
Only cars that came with THEFT PROTECTION have the Starter Cut Relay. That applys to series four cars. I'm fairly sure series five are the same.
The ORANGE CONNECTORS on the EM harness carry power to the fuel injectors, cruise control, wipers, boost sensor, water temp sensor, the two small alternator wires on a non turbo, neutral switch wires, knock sensor wire on a turbo car, fuel pump resistor wire for turbo cars only and other stuff like that.
In your post number fourteen above, the four wires to the far right are just wiper wires. The next two inboard of those four are the alternator wires for a non turbo harness. Those two wires, B/W and W/B don't exist on a TURBO car. On a stock turbo car the alternator wires are in the ENGINE harness on the far left of the car.
Using a turbo EM harness on a Non turbo car results in these types of problems. FEM means this is a connector that mates the FRONT hanress to the EMISSIONS hanress on the engine i.e FEM-01 or FEM-02.
Starter wires.............just pull the small trigger wire off the starter solenoid. Put the key to START and see if batt voltage shows up on the meter when the key is HELD to START. IF it does, then either the solenoid is bad or not enough current is going thru the start circuit to the starter solenoid. So with the car on jacks and out of gear, get a long screw driver and make contact b/t the small blade on the starter solenoid and the large cable on the solenoid with the shank of the screwdriver. The starter and engine should turn over proving the solenoid is good.
Seems your car has a lot of wiring that is not stock and some of the stock wiring is missing PLUS the use of turbo EM hanress used on a non turbo car. I kinda know why people use a turbo EM hanress on a non turbo car. Its usually because they are ignorant on how the wiring runs in the harnesses. The online wiring diagrams show the wiring differences in the electrical plugs b/t turbo and non turbo cars.
Then I don't have any more relays up there.
My car IS a S4 Turbo, sounded like you thought it wasn't.
I have tried the starter and the solenoid by put a brand new wire with power to the solenoid, it works fine. But there is no power in the Black/Green solenoid-cable no matter what I do.
My Alternator-cables comes from far left as you say. So that good.
Now I'm out of ideas... Feeling hopeless...
Also kind of hopeless that we still missunderstand eachother.
If there is so, that I DON'T have ANTI THEFT and STARTER-CUT, where should I search?
In Sweden the Rx7 S4-Turbo dosn't come with interlock-switch either.
Hope you understand me and my bad english...
11-17-09, 02:14 PM
#23
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I found the problem! The connectionplug that connects the solenoid-cable and the rest of the harness was broken inside. When I pulled it apart the pin fell away. Now it crank just fine.
Tomorrow I will put new petrol and new sparkplugs. Then we will se
Tomorrow I will put new petrol and new sparkplugs. Then we will se
11-19-09, 02:16 PM
#24
Senior Member
Thread Starter
New problem
Okey, it won't start...
I have good ignition, new sparkplugs (heat9), put better spark plug wires than before on (20KOhm old/ 5KOhm new). The spark is good and big.
I have god fuel-flow after the fuelfilter. And there comes fuel into the engine. That I see when the sparkplugs are removed. They gets a little wet, not unusual much doh.
The starter runs fine, good speed.
I have checked the CAS, it's ok.
I'm out of ideas, compression you think... haven't checked, but the engine is brand new with 3mm Apex. You should never say never, but seems unfortable.
What else?
There is only 6 cables on the FEM-01-connector (Front harness -> Emission control) that is'nt connected.
The 2 black/red, and the 4 greens.
Haven't found the use of them yet though...
HELP!
I have good ignition, new sparkplugs (heat9), put better spark plug wires than before on (20KOhm old/ 5KOhm new). The spark is good and big.
I have god fuel-flow after the fuelfilter. And there comes fuel into the engine. That I see when the sparkplugs are removed. They gets a little wet, not unusual much doh.
The starter runs fine, good speed.
I have checked the CAS, it's ok.
I'm out of ideas, compression you think... haven't checked, but the engine is brand new with 3mm Apex. You should never say never, but seems unfortable.
What else?
There is only 6 cables on the FEM-01-connector (Front harness -> Emission control) that is'nt connected.
The 2 black/red, and the 4 greens.
Haven't found the use of them yet though...
HELP!