s4 vs s5
s4 vs s5
other than 8.5 compression and egr vavles is there any differance between an s4 and s5 ??
is there really any performance, handaling, drivetrain differances ??
and is there really a prefrance i should look for ??
is there really any performance, handaling, drivetrain differances ??
and is there really a prefrance i should look for ??
s4 has slightly stiffer suspension,
S5 is heavier
S5 has a diffrent manifold design
wiring and ECU is diffrent
s4 LSD was clutch pack
s5 LSD was Viscous
their is of course the body and interior changes for s5
thats alot of the major stuff.
S5 is heavier
S5 has a diffrent manifold design
wiring and ECU is diffrent
s4 LSD was clutch pack
s5 LSD was Viscous
their is of course the body and interior changes for s5
thats alot of the major stuff.
From Mazdamark.com:
In 1989, halfway through its expected build life, the FC RX-7 saw a multitude of small refinements. Rotary engine technology had had continued its advance in the 3 years. The engines themselves used new lighter, higher compression rotors. The combustion recesses on the rotors were fully machined and chromed for heat control. With the machining, the compression ratios of each of the rotor's combustion chambers as well as rotor weight, could be more closely matched. The compression ratio for the normally aspirated models jumped to 9.7 and 9.0 for the turbo respectively (up from the 9.4 and 8.5). For both increased emission restrictions and better engine management the engine computer was speed was doubled.
On the normally aspirated (NA) engines the changes allowed the redline to be increased to 8000 RPM. A rotary valve was added between the intake tracks which started opening at 4500 RPM. This variable dynamic intake (VDI) valve enhanced the DEI (Dynamic Effect Intake) by altering the length of the fuel/air mixture path based on engine speed and load. The airflow meter was also changed from the flapper type to a linear type for reduced air resistance and more precise measurement. The oil metering pump was changed from a mechanical pump to an electronic model for more effective lubrication and reduced oil consumption. These engine modifications raised the output of the NA 13B to 160 HP @ 7000 RPM and 140 lb/ft of torque @ 4000 RPM. The power band was effectively widened, giving more usable power at lower RPMs.
The Turbo II received a new turbocharger. Mazda called it the "Completely Independent Twin Scroll". The impeller was fed directly at the exhaust port. The Mazda press release in 1989 said: “This permits the powerful exhaust pulse generated by the opening of the exhaust port to directly hit the turbine blades without interference from the exhaust from the other rotor." This newer design resulted in reduced turbo lag and increased torque. The new electronically controlled wastegate allowed higher boost pressures and quicker response. The modifications resulted in the peak torque smoothed through the 2000 to 5000 RPM band. The horsepower also climbed another 18 ponies to give the revised Turbo II a Mazda claimed total of 200 horse power @ 6500 RPM and 196 lb-ft of torque at 3500 RPM. The Turbo model also now came standard with anti-lock brakes.
The automatic transmission was now electronically controlled with a "hold" mode that allowed the transmission to be shifted manually in the lower three gears. The Convertible was now available with an optional automatic transmission. Plastic end links and ball joint mountings were used on the sway bars to reduce noise, harshness, and vibration. Vehicle speed sensitive power steering became standard on the Turbo II, but in the GTU models, a less accurate (and cheaper) engine speed sensitive power steering was used. The fuel tank was increased to 18.5 gallons across the line.
Inside the car, leather was used to cover the revised shift ****, steering wheel, and hand brake in all models except the GTU (base) model. The seats were re-contoured for better lateral support. The temperature, fuel, voltage, and oil pressure gauges were placed in round recesses rather than the pie wedges that were used previously and a minor revision was made to the instrument surround. The center console radio, shifter and Logicon (climate control) surrounds were slightly re-contoured with a new rubberized material and the Logicon itself getting updated icons for air direction. A new parcel shelf was added that hid items in the hatch area for GXL and Turbo versions. Controversial motorized seat belts became standard on the coupes in the USA and black became an interior color option with the gray interiors no longer available. The Limited Slip Differential found on the 1986-1988 GXL and 1988 GTU was dropped on the 1989 and 1990 model year versions to save weight and costs.
Exterior cosmetic changes included a newly contoured mid-body trim strip that now matched the car color. The front bumper was slightly reshaped with the nose cap restyled with the word MAZDA embossed rather than the decal found on the '86-'88 models. On the upper level models integrated 55 watt fog lights were placed above the brake vents in the front bumper. The radiator opening was reshaped. A new slightly larger rear spoiler similar to the one found of the Turbo II and GTU in '88 became standard on all coupes. A slightly more rounded version of the Turbo II Aero mirrors also became standard across all models. On the Turbo II a new front spoiler and integrated side skirts replaced the 88 models Aero kit. And finally new tail lights inspired by the Ford brand (that aquired a controlling intrest in Mazda in that year) finished off the exterior body changes.
The GTUs and Turbo II received new 16"x7" wheels which were radically lighter than the previous design and licensed from BBS, while new 15"x 6" 5 lug wheels became standard in the base models and the GXL. The convertible retained its ultra lightweight 11 lb 15"x 6.5" BBS wheels.
The former base model, the GX/SE was updated with 5 lug wheels, and was renamed the GTU. While the former GTU/Sport model became the GTUs with a aluminum hood (from the Convertible) and a new power steering ratio. Similar to the 1986-1987 Sport/GS the GTUs also had reduced insulation and 4 piston front brakes. Originally the the GTUs was to have a normally aspirated 3 rotor engine (the 20B), but pre-production fuel mileage and cooling issues forced Mazda to go another route. Instead Mazda attempted to shorten the 0-60 times with a new 4.3 rear end ratio and .762 top gear. The GTUs was intended to be a more simple and pure version of a the RX-7. A non turbo fast and race ready street car with Air Conditioning and a AM/FM radio the only options. Unfortunately the GTUs flopped in the prime US market with fewer than 2500 sold for its entire sub-model two year production run. North American Mazda dealers unable to understand the light weight, back to basics concept of the car; often had aftermarket glass sunroofs cut in as well as other options bolted on.
On the normally aspirated (NA) engines the changes allowed the redline to be increased to 8000 RPM. A rotary valve was added between the intake tracks which started opening at 4500 RPM. This variable dynamic intake (VDI) valve enhanced the DEI (Dynamic Effect Intake) by altering the length of the fuel/air mixture path based on engine speed and load. The airflow meter was also changed from the flapper type to a linear type for reduced air resistance and more precise measurement. The oil metering pump was changed from a mechanical pump to an electronic model for more effective lubrication and reduced oil consumption. These engine modifications raised the output of the NA 13B to 160 HP @ 7000 RPM and 140 lb/ft of torque @ 4000 RPM. The power band was effectively widened, giving more usable power at lower RPMs.
The Turbo II received a new turbocharger. Mazda called it the "Completely Independent Twin Scroll". The impeller was fed directly at the exhaust port. The Mazda press release in 1989 said: “This permits the powerful exhaust pulse generated by the opening of the exhaust port to directly hit the turbine blades without interference from the exhaust from the other rotor." This newer design resulted in reduced turbo lag and increased torque. The new electronically controlled wastegate allowed higher boost pressures and quicker response. The modifications resulted in the peak torque smoothed through the 2000 to 5000 RPM band. The horsepower also climbed another 18 ponies to give the revised Turbo II a Mazda claimed total of 200 horse power @ 6500 RPM and 196 lb-ft of torque at 3500 RPM. The Turbo model also now came standard with anti-lock brakes.
The automatic transmission was now electronically controlled with a "hold" mode that allowed the transmission to be shifted manually in the lower three gears. The Convertible was now available with an optional automatic transmission. Plastic end links and ball joint mountings were used on the sway bars to reduce noise, harshness, and vibration. Vehicle speed sensitive power steering became standard on the Turbo II, but in the GTU models, a less accurate (and cheaper) engine speed sensitive power steering was used. The fuel tank was increased to 18.5 gallons across the line.
Inside the car, leather was used to cover the revised shift ****, steering wheel, and hand brake in all models except the GTU (base) model. The seats were re-contoured for better lateral support. The temperature, fuel, voltage, and oil pressure gauges were placed in round recesses rather than the pie wedges that were used previously and a minor revision was made to the instrument surround. The center console radio, shifter and Logicon (climate control) surrounds were slightly re-contoured with a new rubberized material and the Logicon itself getting updated icons for air direction. A new parcel shelf was added that hid items in the hatch area for GXL and Turbo versions. Controversial motorized seat belts became standard on the coupes in the USA and black became an interior color option with the gray interiors no longer available. The Limited Slip Differential found on the 1986-1988 GXL and 1988 GTU was dropped on the 1989 and 1990 model year versions to save weight and costs.
Exterior cosmetic changes included a newly contoured mid-body trim strip that now matched the car color. The front bumper was slightly reshaped with the nose cap restyled with the word MAZDA embossed rather than the decal found on the '86-'88 models. On the upper level models integrated 55 watt fog lights were placed above the brake vents in the front bumper. The radiator opening was reshaped. A new slightly larger rear spoiler similar to the one found of the Turbo II and GTU in '88 became standard on all coupes. A slightly more rounded version of the Turbo II Aero mirrors also became standard across all models. On the Turbo II a new front spoiler and integrated side skirts replaced the 88 models Aero kit. And finally new tail lights inspired by the Ford brand (that aquired a controlling intrest in Mazda in that year) finished off the exterior body changes.
The GTUs and Turbo II received new 16"x7" wheels which were radically lighter than the previous design and licensed from BBS, while new 15"x 6" 5 lug wheels became standard in the base models and the GXL. The convertible retained its ultra lightweight 11 lb 15"x 6.5" BBS wheels.
The former base model, the GX/SE was updated with 5 lug wheels, and was renamed the GTU. While the former GTU/Sport model became the GTUs with a aluminum hood (from the Convertible) and a new power steering ratio. Similar to the 1986-1987 Sport/GS the GTUs also had reduced insulation and 4 piston front brakes. Originally the the GTUs was to have a normally aspirated 3 rotor engine (the 20B), but pre-production fuel mileage and cooling issues forced Mazda to go another route. Instead Mazda attempted to shorten the 0-60 times with a new 4.3 rear end ratio and .762 top gear. The GTUs was intended to be a more simple and pure version of a the RX-7. A non turbo fast and race ready street car with Air Conditioning and a AM/FM radio the only options. Unfortunately the GTUs flopped in the prime US market with fewer than 2500 sold for its entire sub-model two year production run. North American Mazda dealers unable to understand the light weight, back to basics concept of the car; often had aftermarket glass sunroofs cut in as well as other options bolted on.
Last edited by Icemark; Oct 13, 2006 at 10:58 PM.
no that cant be right aobut s5 behind heavier. they made s5 motors to be lighter but im not a motor wiz all i know (heard from lots of friends) is that s5 was made lighter then the s4 along with all the different interior and exterior designs
Originally Posted by 86rx7racer
no that cant be right aobut s5 behind heavier. they made s5 motors to be lighter but im not a motor wiz all i know (heard from lots of friends) is that s5 was made lighter then the s4 along with all the different interior and exterior designs
The only thing lighter on the motors was the rotors... and less than 1 lbs lighter
This is well documented in the factory sales books (found in the sticky threads at the top of this section) as well as every other publication from both Mazda and the automotive press.
This is why the 86-87.5 Sport was the fastest non turbo model with a 7.7 second 0-60 according to Car and driver. The 89-90 GTUs with its additional 14 HP and revised rear end still was a laggard 7.8 seconds in comparison... mostly due the extra 150 lbs.
Last edited by Icemark; Oct 13, 2006 at 11:03 PM.
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Originally Posted by gus5891
didnt the redline go up to 8 thousand rpms on the S5 as compaired to 7 thousand on an S4
Im possiably wanting to go to an S5 myself someday, where is that extra fat coming from? if i did, id want it atleast as light as an S5... I mean i can live without motorized seatbelts
How to Diet S5s?
How to Diet S5s?
so what would be better for the street aa s4 or s5
and i concur is that weight from like the leather seats and what not ??
and i concur is that weight from like the leather seats and what not ??
Last edited by turbo-111; Oct 13, 2006 at 11:26 PM.
Originally Posted by MrFC3S
Im possiably wanting to go to an S5 myself someday, where is that extra fat coming from? if i did, id want it atleast as light as an S5... I mean i can live without motorized seatbelts
How to Diet S5s?
How to Diet S5s?There is considerable more structure added due to the mouse belts and anti-submarine systems. Toss in the bigger gas tank and cost cuts made it even heavier.
Mazda cheaped out on the S5 models. For example the uberlichet German alloy jack was replaced on all but convertible models with a standard steel version, same thing with the alloy spare tire and countless other things. The only thing lighter on the S5 models than the S4 models besides the rotors and flywheel was the stabilizer bad end links... which Mazda cheaped out by using plastic endlinks on to save a couple of bucks on the S5 models (S4 models used Steel alloy versions).
Mazda put the FC on a diet for the S4 versions for fear of getting hit with the Gas-guzzler tax... when the feds rolled that back, most of the lightweight diet items got replaced with the standard weight items... Of course the passive restraint issue became manditory in 90 so the 89 model model had those extra supports and weight as well. Too bad the extra structure didn't make the car any more solid, but rather just prevented the belts from being ripped out during an accident (something that the S4 didn't have to deal with since it's belts were fixed).
Last edited by Icemark; Oct 13, 2006 at 11:39 PM.
Originally Posted by Icemark
The passive restraints, reduced federal mileage restrictions, and cost reasons are why the weight jumps so bad.
There is considerable more structure added due to the mouse belts and anti-submarine systems. Toss in the bigger gas tank and cost cuts made it even heavier.
Mazda cheaped out on the S5 models. For example the uberlichet German alloy jack was replaced on all but convertible models with a standard steel version, same thing with the alloy spare tire and countless other things. The only thing lighter on the S5 models than the S4 models besides the rotors and flywheel was the stabilizer bad end links... which Mazda cheaped out by using plastic endlinks on to save a couple of bucks on the S5 models (S4 models used Steel alloy versions).
Mazda put the FC on a diet for the S4 versions for fear of getting hit with the Gas-guzzler tax... when the feds rolled that back, most of the lightweight diet items got replaced with the standard weight items... Of course the passive restraint issue became manditory in 90 so the 89 model model had those extra supports and weight as well. Too bad the extra structure didn't make the car any more solid, but rather just prevented the belts from being ripped out during an accident (something that the S4 didn't have to deal with since it's belts were fixed).
There is considerable more structure added due to the mouse belts and anti-submarine systems. Toss in the bigger gas tank and cost cuts made it even heavier.
Mazda cheaped out on the S5 models. For example the uberlichet German alloy jack was replaced on all but convertible models with a standard steel version, same thing with the alloy spare tire and countless other things. The only thing lighter on the S5 models than the S4 models besides the rotors and flywheel was the stabilizer bad end links... which Mazda cheaped out by using plastic endlinks on to save a couple of bucks on the S5 models (S4 models used Steel alloy versions).
Mazda put the FC on a diet for the S4 versions for fear of getting hit with the Gas-guzzler tax... when the feds rolled that back, most of the lightweight diet items got replaced with the standard weight items... Of course the passive restraint issue became manditory in 90 so the 89 model model had those extra supports and weight as well. Too bad the extra structure didn't make the car any more solid, but rather just prevented the belts from being ripped out during an accident (something that the S4 didn't have to deal with since it's belts were fixed).
ok so how do i fix the "bad end links" on the s5 ?? and is there any way to give it a diet ??
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,598
Likes: 10
From: Temple, Texas (Central)
I don't remember the figures off the top of my head, but the s5 gas tank holds about 2 more gallons than the s4 tank. I am pretty sure that you can use the s5 tank on the s4, but you have to use the mounting strap from the s5 to make it fit.
Originally Posted by turbo-111
ok so how do i fix the "bad end links" on the s5 ?? and is there any way to give it a diet ??
and as far as the diet... well you will never get a S5 as light as a S4, but you could probably shave off #100 by using some of the S4 lighter stuff and removing a bunch of the insulation.
Originally Posted by Sideways7
I don't remember the figures off the top of my head, but the s5 gas tank holds about 2 more gallons than the s4 tank. I am pretty sure that you can use the s5 tank on the s4, but you have to use the mounting strap from the s5 to make it fit.
Originally Posted by Icemark
There are aftermarket end links now that replace the plastic links... usually around $60 an axle.
and as far as the diet... well you will never get a S5 as light as a S4, but you could probably shave off #100 by using some of the S4 lighter stuff and removing a bunch of the insulation.
and as far as the diet... well you will never get a S5 as light as a S4, but you could probably shave off #100 by using some of the S4 lighter stuff and removing a bunch of the insulation.
like raceing seats and s4 seat belts, carbon fiber hood, lightweight steel flywheel and alumnume driveshaft ??
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
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From: Stinson Beach, Ca
s5's have stupid assed squirrel (automatic) belts
s5's are about 150-200lbs heavier model for model
s4's have better differentials
s5's have stronger irons on the engine that dont crack at the dowel pin
s5's are better electrically
s5's have rubberized dash surrounds and center radio surround that dont crack like the s4
s5's have nice black interior thats common, although ive learned to like my blue s4 interior. the red is just hideous though.
s5 intake manifolds on the n/a is better
s5's have better wheels. both lighter and better looking
s5 n/a's had higher redline
s5's are about 150-200lbs heavier model for model
s4's have better differentials
s5's have stronger irons on the engine that dont crack at the dowel pin
s5's are better electrically
s5's have rubberized dash surrounds and center radio surround that dont crack like the s4
s5's have nice black interior thats common, although ive learned to like my blue s4 interior. the red is just hideous though.
s5 intake manifolds on the n/a is better
s5's have better wheels. both lighter and better looking
s5 n/a's had higher redline
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,383
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From: Stinson Beach, Ca
oh yeah, i forgot about the s4 having heavier flywheels. around 4lbs each, i forget the specific weights but the s4 t2 has a 28lb birck of a flywheel
I replaced it w/ a 11lb aluminum
I replaced it w/ a 11lb aluminum
Originally Posted by Node
s5's are better electrically
s5's have rubberized dash surrounds and center radio surround that dont crack like the s4
s5's have nice black interior thats common,
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,598
Likes: 10
From: Temple, Texas (Central)
Several of the pluses node listed for the s5 can be swapped over without too much problem. I already have the s5 rubber surrounds, and s5 wheels are super easy to swap. You can swap on the s5 intake without too much problem. The engine stuff can be obtained by using an s5 core when rebuilding, and the flywheel is relatively simple to replace.
so your sayin when rebuildin just take the rotors out of the s5 engine an put then in the s4 engine you dont have to modify anything
if so are the rotors of an s5 lightweight enough that you can put a turbo on them or do you still need to go with lighter weight rotors than that
if so are the rotors of an s5 lightweight enough that you can put a turbo on them or do you still need to go with lighter weight rotors than that
Last edited by gus5891; Oct 14, 2006 at 12:26 AM.
S4's LSD was better when new, but I'd be willing to bet that NO original FC LSD is still functionning as such. They wear out. There is no difference in the non-LSD diffs.
I've read racers reporting that the S5 and S4 shells weigh the same, so if you are building a race car it doesn't matter, but on the street (maintining comfort, not getting radical on changing out parts) getting an S5 to weigh what an S4 does will be hard. If you want you can always swap out the auto belts for the manual ones, swap the steel jack, spare, hood and such for the aluminum ones to get the weight down.
I'm forever greatful that we didn't get the stupid automatic belts in Canada. I guess our government thought that we're smart enough to figure out how to use seatbelts by ourselves without the car helping.
One of the best reasons to get an S5 IMHO is that it's newer, so all else being equal, will have fewer km's so will be in better condition and more reliable because of it. In my experiance it's much easier to find a good, low km S5 than it is to find a comperable S4.
I've read racers reporting that the S5 and S4 shells weigh the same, so if you are building a race car it doesn't matter, but on the street (maintining comfort, not getting radical on changing out parts) getting an S5 to weigh what an S4 does will be hard. If you want you can always swap out the auto belts for the manual ones, swap the steel jack, spare, hood and such for the aluminum ones to get the weight down.
I'm forever greatful that we didn't get the stupid automatic belts in Canada. I guess our government thought that we're smart enough to figure out how to use seatbelts by ourselves without the car helping.
One of the best reasons to get an S5 IMHO is that it's newer, so all else being equal, will have fewer km's so will be in better condition and more reliable because of it. In my experiance it's much easier to find a good, low km S5 than it is to find a comperable S4.
Turning things around... how about giving the s4 some nice s5 stuff like:
the intake (VDI & airflow meter)
leather on the shift ****, steering wheel, hand brake
the seats
gauges & instruments
and the ever popular tail lights, of course
Are the first 4 things do-able? Would it be worth the effort?
the intake (VDI & airflow meter)
leather on the shift ****, steering wheel, hand brake
the seats
gauges & instruments
and the ever popular tail lights, of course
Are the first 4 things do-able? Would it be worth the effort?
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,598
Likes: 10
From: Temple, Texas (Central)
The intake is do-able. There is agood writeup on it.
The e-brake is possibly doeable. It would be easiet sto just swap the entire handle, if possible. The steering wheel can be taken off and switched over. The shift **** doesn't fit, though. The thread sizes are different.
The seats should be a direct fit.
I'm pretty sure the gauges wont fit, but they are the same.
The tail lights fit with minor modifications. There should be writeups for that as well.
As for using the s5 rotors, you have to use the entire rotating assembly - thats the rotors, and front and rear counterbalances.
The e-brake is possibly doeable. It would be easiet sto just swap the entire handle, if possible. The steering wheel can be taken off and switched over. The shift **** doesn't fit, though. The thread sizes are different.
The seats should be a direct fit.
I'm pretty sure the gauges wont fit, but they are the same.
The tail lights fit with minor modifications. There should be writeups for that as well.
As for using the s5 rotors, you have to use the entire rotating assembly - thats the rotors, and front and rear counterbalances.



