Acesanugal

iTrader: (5)

So, all the things that you should do to any used car more than six years old then...

This is my point..
If you do to an FC what you should be doing to any other older car, you'll be fine.

Few people these days understand what proper and preventative maintenance is; they wait for things to fail, and that's the wrong way to go about it.

I've also got a 16 year old MKIV VW 1.8t that I bought for 600 unicorn farts with what most people would deem high mileage.. it, like pretty much every other car on the road, was neglected. I immediately put another 900 into it for things like all new brakes, timing belt, water pump, full tune up, various hoses, coolant and brake flushes, an axle, etc. 300 for tires.
All to bring it back up to spec.
It is a fantastically reliable little car that I could safely say would drive from Vermont to California without incident. Recently I had to replace the rear wheel bearings and a starter unexpectedly.. does this make it a bad first car choice too ?
**** happens. You do your best to guarantee something of a baseline when you buy an old car and then keep an eye on everything else as you go.. as you *should*.

The FC is just a car, and a very good one at that. The NA engine is extremely reliable so long as you know what you're looking for when you first buy into it. Past that, if you take care of it like you're supposed to, which really isn't that difficult or expensive, it is a reasonably safe bet it will treat you well in return.

Miatas have their own share of engine problems.
Older Civics and Accords are the same, so it's really not that much better. How many hondas have you seen driving around pluming massive amounts of smoke? Or leak all sorts of fluids from a variety of places ? What about the crazy electrical problems that plague older GM vehicles ? Or the unbelievably high failure rate of older Ford automatic transmissions ?
Don't even get me started on any one of the big three german auto manufacturers..

An old car is an old car. They all require the same thing. There is nothing terribly special about the mechanical or electrical components of the FC, or any of its hoses, bushings, or belts.

The way I see it, an old car with a piston engine just has more things in it to fail.. valvetrain components, bearings, timing belts, timing chain guides, etc.. where as the rotary really only has some seals that could fail (and will, someday, like anything else). But you know what ? That's okay. Theres a good chance that a kid that age with few financial responsibilities could save the money for an engine rebuild kit if he or she was serious about wanting to get into this intelligently. And yes, that is after having put the money into the rest of the car to make it reliable and safe. It might mean that he or she can't afford frivolous things like nice wheels, exhaust, or coilovers.. but those aren't that important where standard replacements do fine now is it ?

God, for a group of enthusiasts y'all sure do spin vicious evil landscapes of ownership to someone who does not otherwise know better yet. I must say, I'm a little disappointed.

An old car will cost you money. Period. Pick one you like, and stick with it.

To the original poster... I encourage you to jump in. If just looking at or driving one of these cars excites you, definitely go for it. There is an unbelievable resource of information on this site, nopistons, and rotary car club. Couple those with the readily available factory service manual and you will have no problem finding every single bit of information that you might need when it comes to learning how to work on these cars or determining what might be wrong with yours. If you like, send me a private message with any questions you may have.

theDevilX

Its completely overkill to rip a 6 year old car to pieces to change everything unless its been abused constantly for those 6 years.
I've never owned a car younger that 8 years old and to be honest the only unreliable one I've owned has been a Fiat (2 head gasket failures despite cooling system being in tip top order), but I should have known that before I bought it as they aren't exactly known for reliability. Heck my MR2 Turbo was reliable after a coolant change and some vaccum lines and that was 1992. The RX7 definitely needs more tinkering to run right than that did, possibly because its from 1 generation earlier.

Pretty much any 6 year old car you could buy is going to be reliable out the box, things have come a long way in 30 years. The engine management is way better, wiring of a higher quality, NVH in the car much lower, most new cars actually have decent brakes (which the RX7 does to be fair, but plenty of the other japanese cars from that era didn't), an alternator that can cope, etc etc.

I'm not hating on the RX7, I own one and I love it (despite the issues its giving me), but its a 30 year old car, its going to need a lot more work than a 6 year old car, that's 24 years old newer. Its not spinning a vicious and evil landscape (nice turn of phrase) to be realistic. I agree that if you go through meticulously and replace everything it needs then it would be a reliable DD, if he's an enthusiast who can have the car off the road while he restores and modernises it than great. Go for it.

BUT what if he needs his car every day for school / work etc, and can't have it off the road while he does all this, or simply can't afford to then its probably not for him.

I'm in the UK and rarely see all the stuff your talking about (smoking Hondas, old GM cars etc, we all drive manuals here anyway so automatics are almost unheard of), maybe our yearly car tests are stricter, I don't know. Older cars tend to rust away here anyway. There are less than 60 FC RX7s left on UK roads.

Acesanugal

iTrader: (5)

I live in New England, where a six year old car is very likely to need new suspension, hoses, brake calipers, etc if you are seeking to put the car right in such a way that it's dependable.

The six year jab was more to put an emphasis on newer vehicles not being impermeable. Just because it seems like everything is fine does not mean certain things don't actually need to be replaced to avoid having it suddenly fail.

When I lived down south I saw plenty of 15+ year old Hondas and Toyotas pluming smoke or having nasty sounds coming from them as they drive about.

Older GM and Fords tend to have more problems than people care to discuss.. and thats either because they're embarrassed to say that they paid too much for their used piece of crap, or because they want to be able to sell them and be rid of the issues.

The FC is much simpler in terms of vacuum hoses, fuel lines, electronics, etc.. so even though you have to replace pretty much all of them... its very inexpensive and quite easy even for a beginner when you take simplification into account.

insightful

inexpensive?

the TPS is $300, the window switches about the same, plastics are $50-100 a piece if you can find them, door handles are a hundred bucks or so, transmission rebuild is about a grand, an engine rebuild kit is $500-1000, and an S5 oil metering pump is about $2000(no, used OMPs don't last either, you could eliminate it and premix, for those who feel like adding more maintenance). those figures assume one can turn a wrench.

mostly the problem is good parts are getting harder and harder to find, like a headlight motor that might run you almost a hundred bucks plus shipping. the days of finding a few FCs in a wrecking yard and them still having something left on them is long gone. the last FC i saw in a yard looked like a stripped out garbage heap worth of worthless leftovers.

Acesanugal

iTrader: (5)

Used TPS can still be found well under a hundred bucks.

Lots of these cars still have mostly intact interiors, but little things like vents or door cups do tend to be cracked or missing. Not a huge deal. Wait until the right trim piece comes along at a decent price. Zero effect on reliability.

Door handles really aren't that fragile.. if they are poorly adjusted and you pull on them with unnecessary force, yes they can break. I have spares coming out my ears that I havent needed.

The recommendation was for an s4... which as I am sure you know is mechanical and does not readily fail. Regardless, even with a working metering oil pump, you should be premixing to some degree... or just delete it and go straight premix. Again, this does not affect the reliability of the car if you know these things. Nice try, though.

My experience with these headlamps is good. I have never had one fail and - unlike where you live, apparently - they're always available in the salvage yards.. I would think if they were going to be hard to find, it'd be in a winter climate where it gets darker earlier, the lights get used much more often, and occasionally have to deal with some clueless owner letting them ice up and have to force their way open when you turn the switch. I can honestly say I've never known one that failed.

Certain parts are indeed drying up and are harder to find.. bits of trim and interior, good s5 bumpers, aero mirrors, S5 tail lamps, etc..suoerficial bits. But, all of the important mechanical bits are still available in one form or another.


Some of what is being said is purely based on the experiences of those who were less fortunate than most, left deeply embittered because the salvage yards 'round where they live no longer have any good parts for FCs because they've been picked clean by others.

I've daily driven FCs for years.. anything necessary to keep it going when needed was no problem to source either from a parts store chain, the internet, or the salvage yard within a few days. Get off your soap boxes, they're starting to creak...

insightful

for example, a used TPS isn't a very good recommendation at this point in time. especially when used TPS are costing $50-75(with shipping costs) and can last as little as a week to not even working right out of the box because the seller can't use an ohmmeter properly. it's actually a great example of a delapidated poorly engineered part that is only available from 2 sources and cost an arm and a leg. actually all RX7 parts are that way, because almost no aftermarket suppliers offer any support for the market because mazda didn't have the foresight to use parts that came from other generic mass produced vehicles, instead they use one-offs.

again the main problem i have is that these cars can have bucket lists of issues, often times that require a skilled mechanic to methodically do the repairs in a specific order so as not to continue compounding the problem by adding more issues. many owners got lucky and had one main problem that they fixed right away, many other owners aren't so lucky and wind up ripping the peripherals off and come back with a whole list of new problems that they created while attempting to fix the first problem.

how often have we seen that scenario here? even by self proclaimed mechanics, far too often. now assume the person has absolutely no mechanical knowledge or experience and needs their car in order to get to work to keep their job and to continue paying their apartment rent in order to keep from becoming homeless and jobless. yes, that is a dramatic example, but it can and probably has happened. can it happen with other cars? most certainly, but the rotary engine is an oven and it likes to cook things under the hood so it definitely IS prone to more problems than any other typical 30 year old automobile given the same circumstances.

might be dramatic far end spectrum argument, but i'd rather warn people than to blindly lead them to a car that may potentially need thousands of dollars worth of work. a better car for someone is something more reliable and newer. at the car meets i used to go to 10+ years ago(remember the cars were only 15 years old at that time) there was always at least 1 car that would wind up DOA, needing a tow or was simply being problematic. drives to the huge car meets like sevestock would always result in a handful of cars never even making it there. mostly the problem is that these cars have all had multiple sets of hands on them over the years, some trying to modify things to make it better but often times the result being quite the opposite. even a stock looking car may have had someone messing with the throttle body settings that really shouldn't be touched and can be quite difficult to diagnose.

most cars also won't just fail to start one day for absolutely no apparent reason, with chunks of apex seal laying in the exhaust. *shrugs* another quite costly additional variable, unless you buy a mini cooper or ford V6/V8 and the timing chain tensioner fails... some problems can be avoided with care, but rotary engines are totally and completely unpredictable.

Acesanugal

iTrader: (5)

Well then, by your logic the only people who should buy one of these cars are experienced mechanics with lots of money.. except that such individuals are drying up and spending their money and experience on other kinds of vehicles

Your view on repair structure is true of any car.

We all start somewhere.. the FC is a good car for someone seeking to learn and do it themselves, plain and simple.

I'm happy I started the journey with an FC, and have zero regrets. I love these things.

insightful

they are good cars for the mechanically inclined, i won't argue that. the whole argument i have been making is for those who aren't and can possibly barely afford to repair the larger problems that can and often do associate with these cars. as well, most items you can't go to the auto parts store down the street and find or have in stock, often times requiring days to weeks to get even simple things like spark plugs and wires.

my whole point is, it's just not the car for someone as sole transportation who needs reliability and or possibly a money saving vehicle.

more or less most of the FCs out there at this time are restoration projects, not cars i would point someone to who needs something that supports their life.

with that i don't think there's anything more i can say about it.

Acesanugal

iTrader: (5)

Lol I've never come across a situation where it took weeks to get plugs and wires. Two of my local advance auto even stock the plugs..o-o-o-O'reilly can have them next day, as well as alternators, starters, brake calipers, pads and rotors, parking brake cables, engine mounts, wheel bearings, etc etc. All very reasonably priced as well. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Good job of supporting the degradation of the community bud, excellent work!

It is still not anything like as bad as you're making it out to be, and you will not be able to convince me otherwise because I know better.

insightful

you continue to assume everyone has the best of luck and i assume everyone is going to have the worst, since none of my parts stores have anything and some parts need to come from a ways away, for used parts it's always a crap shoot. so perhaps i'm just a realist and you're the one being the disassociative *** calling me the pessimist who is hurting the community.

difference is, i realize its good to have someone to argue both good and bad sides, without the slander.

theDevilX

The parts situation here in the UK is so bad that apart from generic stuff like belts and windscreen wipers, I can't even source them online. Pretty much anyone over here who owns an FB or FC uses Rock Auto and has stuff shipped across. Which as you can imagine with international shipping, import duty and then 20% VAT added on top gets expensive. As part of my restomod I'm doing my best to swap everything possible for generic parts.

Acesangual, no one is saying they're bad cars, but they're very very old. Surely you can see that if someone needs their car every day and is 16 so probably can't afford to spend a fortune, there are more suitable vehicles to choose from.

To put it in perspective, my daily is a 9 year old diesel Ford Fiesta, its pretty slow (although it does handle well) but for a daily its ideal, its comfortable, got a great heater, built in stereo is good, head lights and reverse lights are better, has a bigger boot, gets over 3 times the mpg of the RX7 (important when fuel is £1.20 a litre), it cost less than the RX7 parts are available and half the price. I've done 8k miles since getting it in April and all I've had to do is an oil change and some new wiper blades.
Is it as special as the RX7? No way, its just a daily hack, but for the job of driving 50 miles to work reliably its way better than the FC.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

the FC is pre-1995, and basically any pre 1995 car isn't supported by the parts business, with a couple of exceptions.

for the FC as a first car question, i had an FC really early (i think it was my second?), and it was actually really good. my hesitation now though is just that the FC is so old, i'm not sure that any 30 year old car is a good idea as an 'only car daily driver'

i've had a lot of cars (couple dozen Rx7's, Rx8's, MG's, a wonderful Triumph Tr3, a few Mercedes, Lancia, and a Mustang*), plus about a decade of road racing, and i worked at a dealership too, so i tend to take the same approach as clokker. i go through the car like its going to be a stock class autocrosser, and take care of any problems.

the hardest part about the FC really is that every piece of the car was designed for the FC, like a Ferrari if Ferrari's were mass produced. the FC is also complex, it was the most advanced car you could buy in 1987, edged out in 1988 by the BMW 750il.

my go through the car thing is an evolving process, but i've had excellent reliability out of some real junk for very modest money.

so FC as a first car? if you're willing to go through its workings and make sure it all is working properly, then yes you will do fine, the FC is built like a tank. if not then you would want something newer/simpler.

*my FC ran circles around the Mustang, literally.

WayneBrady

iTrader: (4)

I say go for it. there'll be plenty of time to do the responible thing when your older. Also you cant become mazda modshop shade tree certified by owning hon dais

WondrousBread

The one I still drive daily is my first car. It has a low mileage rebuilt engine. In 12 months, aside from some irritating maintenance issues at the beginning (it sat for about 4 years before I bought it), all I have had to do is basic maintenance and one fuel pump replacement. That being said, weird issues will crop up often, and they will not always be easy to solve.

Side note, the fuel pump was original, and lasted 374000 km.

The question you're asking is a difficult one to answer because what defines "good first car" is kind of subjective. I consider it an excellent first car (provided you do your research before buying, and buy a well taken care of Rx7), in that it will teach you basic maintenance, and should last many years before a rebuild if well taken care of. It will also teach you improvisation, as you will often find yourself making creative solutions to unusual problems that most people don't think about (such as the interior plastics), and sometimes rigging up a temporary fix just so you can get to and from work the next day (I'm looking at you, Throttle Position Sensor).

If you want something that will be perfectly reliable, this isn't the car for you. But if you want something that will be reliable enough but still teach you things in the process, the Rx7 is an excellent choice.

nloder344

Thanks for all the responses, guys. I appreciate getting feedback from longtime FC owners about getting one as my first car. I'm sorry if I didn't list this in the original post, but the main reason why I want an RX-7 FC is that I want to have an 80's/90's Japanese sports coupe that is both fun to drive and somewhat reliable. I want to be able to repair cars on my own in the future and from what you guys told me the FC RX-7 is a great start. I got to test drive this 1990 Mazda RX-7 convertible last Friday night with my dad and it was one hell of an experience. When I test drove the car, it handled exceptionally well and I fit just fine (I'm 6'4, by the way).

Also, anything on insurance for an FC? I know car insurance for a teenager is ridiculously expensive, but I'm pretty sure it won't be that expensive because the RX-7 makes a modest amount of power from a really small engine.

Acesanugal

iTrader: (5)

Insurance shouldn't be too bad.. liability only is the smart choice.

WondrousBread

Insurance shouldn't be bad, even at our age. See if you can bundle it with your parents to save money.

As mentioned, don't worry about anything other than the 3rd party liability. On a car this old, the amount of money you would pay into comprehensive coverage would quickly exceed the value of just buying another one if something went wrong.

TonyD89

iTrader: (10)

Before dumping too much money in the car after you get it, save some money for a beater.

ColinShark

Yes.

I had an N/A FC as my first car, and I drove it for 12 years. They are a solid platform to learn on. A very well-rounded driver's car, and slow enough to keep you out of most trouble.

Go 4 it

DeaconBlue

iTrader: (31)

Very true. Plus it is has light and easy controls - clutch, brakes, shifter and steering.

insightful

in stock form, yeah. but how many cars are untouched these days?

Rotary Alkymist

I agree with insightful about everything. This is not a daily driver. If this is your only car it WILL let you down. Also, if you are as mechanically inclined as some people in this very thread you will be wasting all your money on the wrong parts and you will never get it running right lol.

My advice: if you do buy an rx7 , buy a corolla for those months of down time. You WILL have issues.... good luck only lasts so long. I'm not trying to discourage the purchase, just don't walk into it thinking the spending stops there LOL! Also don't be too surprised if you blow your engine in two months.

FührerTüner

iTrader: (5)

All of this ^^^^. Buy a honda or a toyota for your first car until you can afford owning an RX7.

brian_skotch

iTrader: (6)

I had an NA FC for my first car and it was awesome. That car never gave me any more trouble than what would be expected of a 24 year old car (at the time). Few small things but it was a great car to learn to work on and become a better driver. Not enough power to get you in trouble, but perfect for fun in the twisties. I then daily'd my turbo2 and that's when things got expensive. But that's a different story!

Oh and I remember insurance was pretty cheap because the car was so old.

Get the vert! You'll love it.

JCurry

iTrader: (6)

I had an Fc as my first car. Got the car for free for cleaning out a ladys garage. She had it sitting in her back yard, where it had been for about 6 years. I was 13 at the time. I worked on that car replacing normal things here and there, and eventually drove it all throughout high school. Never had many issues with it. Biggest thing I remember was a bad power steering leak I had. Replaced the line with one from a junk yard and all was well. I really dug into reading and researching things on the internet and mainly this forum when I first picked that car up, and gained a lot of knowledge and confidence by completing things on my own at that young age. Just make sure to buy a decent car to start with, and as long as your not lazy, and don't mind fixing or working on things yourself, I think the car would be fine for a starter. Plus you wont be like everyone else driving Hondas, and v6 Camaros.

Good Luck!