WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

Okay, I've searched, but i'm coming up pretty dry. I need to replace my Pulsation Dampner with a banjo bolt. (This is on a 86 N/A). I'm trying to figure out what size banjo bolt to replace it with.. Kevin Lander's site is down, and the only thing I could find in a post is 12mm x 1.25. Is that the proper size for the banjo bolt?

Just for the record, I don't need a debate on whether I want the PD or not, I'd love to get a new one, but I'm a REALLY poor college kid

MY second question is: Is there a nice write up someone can direct me to for the rat's nest/vacuum line hell removal? I am not running ANY emmissions equipment. No Airpump, no Cats, etc, etc, etc... I saw a really nice removal writeup for the Fbs, but I'd love to see one for our FCs.. If not, can someone point me to a nice removal thread?

Thanks guys!

~DaWonk

hondahater

iTrader: (2)

Man the rats nest removal looks really really complicated thats why I haven't done it yet however I would love to try if there where a nice write up on it. Also the banjo bolt is a great question that I haven't seen yet either. Sorry I can't answer your questions but very very good questions that deserve a bump

skydivr73

As far as I recall, there is a banjo bolt on the other side of the fuel rail already. If you get your hands on a spare rail, you can just remove that one and use it. Obviously you cannot just take the one off of your own fuel rail. IIRC that is all that everyone does with these. Start looking for spare fuel rails with the bolt on the back of it.

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

Skydivr73 - So that one is exchangeable? I'll have to go check the For sale section tomorrow... thanks!

DerangedHermit

Pulsation Dampener Banjo Bolt: M12 x 1.25

BlackRx7

I would not recommend this mod, the pulsation dampener was put it place by mazda for a reason, you can actually risk blowing your engine by doing this mod!!!!

eage8

iTrader: (9)

I just thought I'd save him the trouble

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

IF it does go down, it isnt for long. It's on some kinda high-tech backed up company server. ITs never been down for more than 10 minutes, to my knowledge. Just try again. The info IS on there.

I dont have a emissions removal writeup for the s4 NA, but just look at the s4 t2 and you can figure out the NA from that...its pretty much the same. ON the s4 NA, the only things you NEED to keep (other than OMP and it's vacuum lines) is the fuel pressure regulator and pressure sensor on strut tower...I tee these together and run them to the vacuum port on the intake manifold on the passengers side. Block off and cap off everything else, run new fuel lines, and you're done. Don't overlook the big vacuum hole on the 3" intake tube, that used to feed the BAC valve.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

I'd LOVE to see proof of this. Anyone who can say they blew their engine because they removed the PD, post here, or post somewhere, Im interested in hearing your story. UNtil then, I'll regard this as pure speculation. FOr the simple reason that I've been removing them for a while now on everything from stock NA's to modded t2's and never once had a problem that could be associated with that. I would trust a banjo bolt more than a NEW pd any day.

TO those who say that a fuel injection system NEEDS a pd, they're wrong. Plenty of cars don't utilize a PD in spite of being a high pressure system.

Impreza2RX7

Yeah, I would believe Kevin or Reted, I'm not using a PD on the system that I'm currently installing, but you know what? Even if your speculation was true, I'd rather blow and engine than have an engine fire, it'd be a hell of alot cheaper..

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

Deranged Hermit - Thank you for confirming that! I'll be looking for one locally today (wish me luck)...

eage8 - Thanks for standing in for me That's exactly what I would have done, too

Kevin - sweet man, thanks for the info, you're always on the spot I'm thinking of taking some pics during my removal process, to make a writeup/update an existing writeup.. want them if I take them?

impreza2rx7 - Definitely agreed there.

RETed

Now that's an interesting way to put it!

I hope I wouldn't have to choose either one, although I've already gone through ONE PD fire!

Here's my write-up on the banjo bolt replacement...
http://fc3spro.com/TECH/FAQ/pd.html

Yeah, the NA runs one of those banjo bolts on the other side, so we should all go stripping the S4 FC NA's for their fuel rails!


-Ted

hondahater

iTrader: (2)

after reading all of that I see that it is prone to go bad on the 86-88 model n/a's. Is it the same for tII's??? Thanks

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

hondahater - From readin the top line " 1986-1988 Zenki FC3S models seem to be more prone to these pulsation damper failures versus the newer 1989-1991 Kouki FC3S models.", and from what i've read on the boards, ANY 86-88 Rx-7 is prone to PD failure. I'm sure Ted will chime in if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I am.. I'm pretty sure all of them used the same PD.

hondahater

iTrader: (2)

hey this is from mazda trix if you fallow the link on the fc3s.org website

"These are very prone to leaking, especially in the 86-88 non-turbos (and we have had a few of the other types in the 86-95 range leaking). "

Maxthe7man

Why Don,t you just buy a better FPD instead...
Injection.com
And maybe Kevin can show us which cars don't use them...Even my 96 GM van has one, Gm got smart though and put them in the fuel tank so if they rupture they just leak into the tank...
They are not an optional accessory as alot of people like to think so..The FC uses the same PD as alot of other cars, the number interchanges with cars outside of the mazda label and those cars are not prone to engine fires, which makes me think that its the heat of the engine compartment of the FC along with greater injection pulsations in the fuel system of the fc due to the injection strategy and the greater amount of fuel injected, that leads to failure in the FC. However in my 200,000 km n/a its still got the original PD, with the screw still in it..
Without a PD, the rails are more prone to fuel leaks as the pressure pulses tend to hammer away at everything, on my old fuel setup that didn't have it, I had mystery fuel leaks, I could see signs of fuel leaking, but with the hood popped and the pressure cranked up on the fuel system to 80 psi , nothing would leak, with the car at idle and at 40 psi, no leaks.. But After a hard run with the duty cycles up in the 80's ,there would be signs of injector leaks at the O-rings, on all 4 injectors, all o-rings were new, before I knew anything out about fuel system harmonics, I thought it might be temperature related, but it was not, it was the pulses in the fuel rail pounding fuel by the o-rings, its funny now looking back at it, there was all sorts little things pointing towards the puslation problem, but it took an engine failure for me to pay enough attention to it, to see that it was a problem, when I researched the PD functions deeply enough, all the light bulbs went on to the little and large symptoms I had experienced...
Anyone messing with their fuel system should read this first:

http://www.aempower.com/faq.asp?fid=17&sid=&tid=2

Thats probably the best guidline on the internet, another good one is at Kinsler.com
Keep in mind a hi flow fuel system on a Honda is pretty much equivalent to the stock FC system in terms of flow..
When my stock PD starts to leak on my NA, I will anti up the 50 bucks for a new one from autovalue, its there for a reason..max

rx7roller02

you are only half right I think--it is also placement of our FPD that is a concern. think about it--your FPD leaks, and the fuel drips down right onto some of the hottest parts of the engine. If it were anywhere else in the engine bay the heat would not matter, would it? People have had the rubber fuel lines leak before and it has not caused a fire the same way, right? it is where the fuel goes when it leaks....

RETed

Wow, don't you just love it when someone can make such a deduction and be correct?

Why, would you think, all 4 fuel injectors could be leaking?
I guess it's impossible for the o-rings to be at fault.
I guess it's impossible for the fuel pressure to be too high.
I guess it's impossible for the fuel injector o-rings to be damaged due to improper installation.

Wouldn't it be next to impossible for the primary fuel injectors to be affected, since they are in an absurdly short fuel rail?
Nah, of course not, even though this is next to impossible according to all the references Max has posted.

Isn't it odd that at higher fuel rail pressures (assuming 1:1 rising rate FPR) due to boost cause more fuel leaking, when Max's references state that higher pressures minimize pulsations?

Isn't it funny that higher duty cycles would be the cause, even though getting closer to 100% is basically like no pulsations at all?
Isn't it odd that at idle, where there is such small duty cycles and the injector are shutting on then off so quick, that this doesn't happen?

Isn't it odd that so far Max is the only one that has diagnosed this problem down to no PD...


-Ted

RETed

Hmmm...now I know everything there is to installing nitrous on a Honda...


-Ted

RETed

Most Honda 4-cylinder motors, 190cc/min to 360cc/min, x4, sequential

FC NA, 460cc/min, primary x2, secondary x2, sequential / staged
FC turbo, 550cc/min, primary x2, secondary x2, sequential / staged

Yeah, I can see that's pretty equivalent...


-Ted

motto

I would not do this mod also. It damaged my fuel injectors not to mention start and stop problems. I replaced the banjo bolt with a new pulsation dampner and every thing is finally operating correctly...

Maxthe7man

From the guy who still can't tell us why all the OEMs use a pulsation dampener.....
Yes all that is impossible , because it was all checked..


New orings twice
all orings came out looking like new, I can rebuild a 16 cylinder refrigeration compressor with more orings than your local autoparts store carries, and I can't put a fuel rail on right, hmm don't think so...
I can run my fuel pressure up to 80 psi and have no leaks, the fuel pressure is lower when the car is on boost running than 80 psi..
I don't think higher pressures minimize pulsations, I have read that they do improve injector spray patterns, some of the sources do say that a larger fuel rail will dampen the pulsations.
Its not next to impossible at all for the primaries to be affected, all pressures and variations will be seen across the entire high side of the fuel system, thats why GM put the PD in the tank, as they know that any pulses will resonate and show up in the whole system, not just in one rail or one injector, although I have one injector finally that finally failed, the tell tale signs started to show on the whole fuel system..

Funny the last honda turbo installation I looked at was running 4x550's, nothing like a stock FC I guess, oh yeah the guy took the fuel pump and injectors from a stock Turbo II...Most Hi output honda people are looking buying the same stuff we do for replacment /upgrade parts , the same basic pump and regulator upgrades etc etc... The point of that though was not to be discouraged by reading a fuel setup that was writtine with alot of Honda content and product description, but by the science and the knwoledge within it, feel free Ted to disregard if you feel you know better than AEM, by the way, I found a strange device on a Honda fuel rail the other day, it was a pulsation dampener...Max

WonkoTheSane

iTrader: (2)

I've read the flame wars on both sides before... and I would love to just replace the part with a OEM one or even an equivalent like max posted, but I would appreciate if everyone who wants to argue the merits of this please re-read my quote from the first page (it's on there twice now):

School starts monday, and right there is at least 300 dollars in books plus at least 90 for a parking permit, etc, etc, etc... I don't have the money for a new PD. Period. And no, I'm not going to be buying one for a while, either, as I'm already going to be working+schooling ~14-16 hour days just to pull off school.

That being said.

Thank you ReTed for giving me the most information about running without it.
MaxThe7Man - I appreicate the link to the non-oem replacement ones, when I have money, i'll look into them instead of OEM. Thanks!

I really do value everyone else's opinions on what they expirienced without it, and why they think it's a bad idea to run without it, but that is outside of the scope of the original question.

It really does boil down to: The potental problems with putting the old (failing) one back in far outweigh the potential draw backs of running without it.



hondahater - That's pretty interesting.. I'm wondering about the TII S4s now, too..

SEATS

Here's a banjo info link, and if you need to check out other options check it out! http://fc3spro.com/TECH/FAQ/pd.html

Endofcomment

wonko I have a used PD working to my knowledge came off a care that the engine didn't run but I did have fuel pressure on it and it didn't leak or anything I also have a banjo bolt both for a small fee + shipping