distr0

iTrader: (1)

I'm installing coilovers, and figured I'd remove and clean up the rear subframe and suspension components at the same time. Planned to install DTSS eliminators and new trailing arm and end link poly bushings too. Now I'm doing some reading and it seems like once you start changing ANYTHING in the rear, it quickly becomes quite a large project.

Is all of this correct?
1) when you lower the rear end, the rear tires camber out too much? (how much?)
2) you can 'fix' the camber with an adjustable subframe camber rod, but that's just twisting/binding against the subframe bushings, which isn't ideal. this can also cause uneven camber between sides since the link isn't centered.
3) the proper way to fix camber is to change/shorten the two short camber links between the subframe and trailing arm
4) doing #3 changes the pivot angle of the arms, causing binding of the outer bushings between the arms and subframe
5) because of #4, you now need to change those bushings to spherical bearings (so my brand new poly ones are useless).
6) at some point during all these changes, the toe may be thrown out, which is corrected by adjustable lateral links

This seems like a LOT of parts to buy to do things properly. Is it all necessary? Am I overthinking this?

distr0

iTrader: (1)

I'm looking at ordering:
https://store.partsshopmax.com/shop/...le/FCTACL.html
https://store.partsshopmax.com/shop/...le/FCSFCA.html
https://store.partsshopmax.com/shop/...ng/FCTAFB.html
https://store.partsshopmax.com/shop/...ing/FCTEB.html

but i might skip the spherical bearings for now and just hope it doesn't bind the bushing too badly. already way over budget for this

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

To make the FC rear suspension right you do need a few parts.

Do not put poly bushings in the trailing arms. It will bind. Delrin will bind too. Used OEM soft rubber or spherical.

Buy the spherical bearings for the rear trailing arms.

You can buy the PBM individual camber links, they do work, but the Ronin Speedworks camber links are lighter and shorter for a better camber angle. I'd get those. They make them in 3 lengths too so you have some adjustment if needed. Most just get the shortest ones though.

Do not buy the subframe camber link.
You do not need adjustable toe links.

If your stock toe links are in good shape, you can adjust the toe with the stock eccentric bolts.

Ronin camber links:

http://www.roninspeedworks.net/index...&product_id=90

distr0

iTrader: (1)

thanks for the info. I did see the Ronin ones but it would be nice to get everything from one place, and as far as I can tell, partsshopmax.com is the only place to do that. Not to mention that these ones are half the price. I'm in Canada, so I already get ruined with USD to CAD conversion and shipping/duty fees so one order is definitely ideal

I think my stock subframe camber link is pretty worn and needs replacement anyways. Any reason to NOT use the partsshopmax.com one in this case?

Trailing arms already have poly bushings from the previous owner. I was planning on installing brand new ones since I have them anyways. Sounds like that won't really work though, i'll likely just go spherical

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

The poly bushings will screw you. Just remove them now and save yourself a lot of headache.

Yes if your camber sub link is hammered, the Parts Shop Max ones are fine.

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

I ended up over here from a different thread, but to keep on track here I have a quick question.

What about using these to set camber at the knuckle, use stock camber links, and use poly bushings in the arms?

Whiteline KCA379

Would you end up being able to use the stock toe eccentrics and get it all in spec?

GeenIdee

For those interested, I do have a pair of brand new super now camber links.

Not as cheap as the ones above, but also not as expensive as buying them from the shop.

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

Do not try to fix the toe with parts designed to fix the camber.

I would not bother with those. They are non adjustable and seem like an over complicated way to solve the problem. Unless you need them because you run the car too low and need these on top of shorter camber links, I'd just get shorter camber links.


Just get shorter camber links, there is enough adjustment (slop) in the bolt holes alone to get the rear camber even with shorter links. I still have stock toe links and use the toe eccentrics to adjust my rear toe.

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

Bummer that I already have driven out my factory rear control arm bushings then. Looks like I'm either going spherical, or back to stock. I still have the car on stands, so I may just keep the stock camber links and see where I end up, then pull the trigger on shorter links.

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

Buy the PBM solid bushings. They are like $30.

https://store.partsshopmax.com/shop/...g/FCTARUB.html


OK hold on. To make sure we are on the same page, you are talking about bushing for the wrong location if you are talking about a spherical. If I understand you correctly, the bushing you referenced from whiteline is for the HUB to lower control arm, not the lower control arm bushing that goes to the subframe. BUY THE SPHERICALS for the lower control arm that goes to the subframe.

The whiteline bushing you referenced and PBM bushings I referenced go here (GOLD PBM bushing pictured):




The whiteline bushing has an offset hole to take out or add camber. The stock and PBM bushings are drilled on center.


The spherical you want for the forward bushing that connects to the subframe is here (is this the one you pressed out already?).
https://store.partsshopmax.com/shop/...ng/FCTAFB.html

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, we are on different pages. I pressed out the forward control arm bushing that goes to the subframe. I left the upper hub bushing in place for now. My plan was to run stock camber links and just use the whiteling hub bushing to set the camber, since shorter camber links cause binding in the forward control arm bushing.

I am going to also install DTSS eliminator bushings as well. I already have solid subframe mount bushings installed. that go on the very ends of the frame and bolt to the body. I was going to just install the stock camber-sub arm to triangulate that part, since the frame will no longer be able to move around. I was going to get toe adjustment arms, but if they are unnecessary, I don't want to have to spend the money.

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

Buy the $100 PBM sphericals to replace what you pressed out.

You do not need toe links unless yours have slop in them.

With the sphericals in the control arm you can use any camber link you want and get the camber where you need it.

You will still set the rear toe with the stock eccentric with this setup.

You can use the stock subframe link with this setup. If you upgraded to an adjustable link, the only benefit would be that the link itself is solid. The stock one has a bit of compliance in it.

Bottom line, spend the money on the shorter camber links, spherical bushing for the rear trailing arm and DTSS bushings. With that at a minimum you'll be good to go with the solid subframe bushings. If you go with solid diff bushings you MUST do all solid bushings. That is solid rear diff bushings and the solid front mount bushing.

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

I'm not going solid on the diff. I don't care for gear howl. Everything else should be cake.
Thanks for the insight.

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

Perfect. No problem

DR_Knight

iTrader: (23)

Should just do everything. But that's me, literally. I have pbm everything on the rear with battle version lateral toe links, awr individual toe links. With the subframe raised and car lowered, the car feels more aggressive and nimble. With all spherical links, I can feel most of the movement is in the dampeners/springs and is more fluid motion. And haven't touched the rear setup since.

I used the whiteline camber adjustment on top of the hub though. It's good, but a pain to align both sides evenly.

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

Should, maybe, but I'm not planning on racing the car. Just making a well composed car to drive on the weekends. I may do some autocross, but I doubt that I would be competitive with the things I've already done and my budget.

It seems like every step into the car I get the "while I was in there" bug and end up going two steps too far ahead of my budget.

distr0

iTrader: (1)

this is my life

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

Everything I told you to do will yield 95% of the performance someone who bought "everything" and went full solid everywhere. If you were building a track car I'd tell you to do the solid diff bushings.

The rear camber components are something you simply have to spend money on if you want the car to handle correctly. This is a place where you want to do it once while you have the subframe out and be done. You want -1.2 to -1.5 degrees of negative camber in the back.

I have done "everything" to the rear end besides toe rods on my car, and drive my car on the track all the time with 275 race tires. For AutoX, or track days, or spirited driving, there is no need to raise the subframe like PBM does. It also jacks with your driveline angle, which I do t like.

The adjustable Mazdatrix/AWR camber links suck. Many of us have bent and broken them. The PBM links or even better the Ronin Speedworks camber links are a bulletproof solution. Ronin offers different lengths to get the camber where you need it. PBM is cheaper, but only available in one length.

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

Very good to know. I bought the PBM solid diff bushings and bored the center hole out to 20mm for use as subframe bushings. The height of the frame should be about where it was before with the old bushings. I personally didn't like the idea of the riser cups. I felt like the bushings should either be solid, or stock rubber.

Thanks so much for your replies.

Nosferatu

I'm refreshing the IRS as we speak also..I plan to just drive it on the street mostly so I was just going to go with the mazdacomp stuff and new stock front control arm bushings keeping the NVH not far off stock...do the front spherical bushings add much to the NVH(noise vibration harshness)?

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

No the sphericals in the rear control arms don't add much at all.

Nosferatu

would you recommend the pbm sphericals over stock ones considering the rest is still going to be rubber except for the dtss and that trailing arm rear upper one you have pictured above?

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

Yes. Especially if you have the car lowered and want to fix the camber.


You have got to figure the stock bushings have at least started to deteriorate. Plus they are pliable enough to not bind if you use camber links to adjust the camber, but then you are twisting a 30 year old rubber bushing. Unless you are racing in a class that dictates no bushing upgrades, I'd replace with OE rubber. If not, put in the spherical bearings there.

Nosferatu

anyone filled the stock subframe bushing with urethane? does it make any difference and/or impact NVR? they are expensive to replace with a dealer item....thanks

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

I just filled my stock differential bushings, but I have no idea about NVH because of all of the other changes. I would presume that the NVH would go up slightly, but most of us are running lowered cars with loud exhausts, so the difference is probably negligable.

Based on what largeorangefont and a few others have mentioned to me is that you want the subframe bushings to be solid delrin. The NVH will go up a bit, but I'm not sure by how much.