pushrod activated suspension idea
08-04-09, 06:18 PM
#30
Engine, Not Motor
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According to your other thread, your car is going to be a stainless steel tube frame carbon fibre widebody peripheral port turbo daily driver. So why even bother with modifying the stock suspension points?
Since you will be building a tube frame from scratch, you can pick up the suspension anywhere you want. Simply alter the length of the control arms and then you can mount the coilovers more inboard and at an angle. That way they will neatly tuck inside the wheels.
Or, just alter the wheel base. Go with a wider hub-to-hub distance. You'll end up with a wider stance and you'll be able to fit more rubber with room under the car to spare.
As BLUE TII mentioned, Area 51 had a setup like this on his FD. You may find pictures by searching VERY OLD Lounge posts as this was at least 9 years ago. Maybe they were even lost in the hack. Then again, pictures are going to be very little help past the actual layout.
Still an odd idea though because with a tube frame car you can design the suspension to avoid issues like this.
Edit...Also, why would you ever suggest buying a widebody kit? You made it abundantly clear in your other thread that you would make your carbon fibre widebody with a large pottery kiln and by just laying it together.
Since you will be building a tube frame from scratch, you can pick up the suspension anywhere you want. Simply alter the length of the control arms and then you can mount the coilovers more inboard and at an angle. That way they will neatly tuck inside the wheels.
Or, just alter the wheel base. Go with a wider hub-to-hub distance. You'll end up with a wider stance and you'll be able to fit more rubber with room under the car to spare.
As BLUE TII mentioned, Area 51 had a setup like this on his FD. You may find pictures by searching VERY OLD Lounge posts as this was at least 9 years ago. Maybe they were even lost in the hack. Then again, pictures are going to be very little help past the actual layout.
Still an odd idea though because with a tube frame car you can design the suspension to avoid issues like this.
Edit...Also, why would you ever suggest buying a widebody kit? You made it abundantly clear in your other thread that you would make your carbon fibre widebody with a large pottery kiln and by just laying it together.
08-04-09, 06:25 PM
#31
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god damn man that is really unnecessary..
do you get off from being an ******* to people? like does that get your dick hard?
obviously i am not making the carbon fiber widebody anymore.. it was an idea, just a freaking concept.
but its not necessary for you to rag on me as if im an idiot.. That 13bppt that you make fun of me building really is being built.. It IS going to be my daily driver..
do you get off from being an ******* to people? like does that get your dick hard?
obviously i am not making the carbon fiber widebody anymore.. it was an idea, just a freaking concept.
but its not necessary for you to rag on me as if im an idiot.. That 13bppt that you make fun of me building really is being built.. It IS going to be my daily driver..
08-04-09, 06:50 PM
#33
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Let's not let this thread get out of hand.
Trust me, I was not making fun of you. If I was making fun of you, then you'd know it.
In case you have not not noticed, I am never a dick to anyone on these forums or in real life. If you can find any post of mine that is anything past poking simple fun of someone (almost always with a smiley attached) then you win an Internet cookie and I'll give you $100 via Paypal. It is called "gentle ribbing" and is something people do. Perhaps you are a bit oversensitive due to the results of some of your past threads?
I've noticed that you are actually building the engine. That's kind of cool, but not impressive until it runs and makes power (and then holds together). I'm hoping that it works out well for you.
You registered two years ago. Feel free to search back to my posts, beginning in mid 1998 or so, for any in which I have insulted someone or been hostile towards them. I think some of the early posts may have been lost in the hack though.
Grow a thick skin when you make posts like this because you will need it. If I wanted to be a dick, I would have been replying to your other posts.
Trust me, I was not making fun of you. If I was making fun of you, then you'd know it.
In case you have not not noticed, I am never a dick to anyone on these forums or in real life. If you can find any post of mine that is anything past poking simple fun of someone (almost always with a smiley attached) then you win an Internet cookie and I'll give you $100 via Paypal. It is called "gentle ribbing" and is something people do. Perhaps you are a bit oversensitive due to the results of some of your past threads?
I've noticed that you are actually building the engine. That's kind of cool, but not impressive until it runs and makes power (and then holds together). I'm hoping that it works out well for you.
You registered two years ago. Feel free to search back to my posts, beginning in mid 1998 or so, for any in which I have insulted someone or been hostile towards them. I think some of the early posts may have been lost in the hack though.
Grow a thick skin when you make posts like this because you will need it. If I wanted to be a dick, I would have been replying to your other posts.
08-04-09, 07:10 PM
#34
This setup will cost more than $2500.
You can't have a car that dominates drag, autoX, drift, whatever else there is...tractor pulls or some **** like demolition derbies... and daily driving. You can't have a safe, comfortable daily driver and dominate at whatever type of racing you want to do. If you want to autoX get a shifter cart. If you want to drag, get a solid rear. You don't sound like you know what it takes it win.
You can't have a car that dominates drag, autoX, drift, whatever else there is...tractor pulls or some **** like demolition derbies... and daily driving. You can't have a safe, comfortable daily driver and dominate at whatever type of racing you want to do. If you want to autoX get a shifter cart. If you want to drag, get a solid rear. You don't sound like you know what it takes it win.
08-04-09, 07:11 PM
#35
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why would it cost more than 2500?
i cant see any reasons it would..
at most a total of 200 bucks for all the tubing involved.
the pivot arms would cost about 200 each or so, for me to machine.
all the ball joints and bearings, mabey 200-300 bucks.
then the actual shocks.
so assuming that shocks are less than 1600 dollars, (and it looks like a good set will cost me around 600), its less than 2500.
And i am not trying to make something that dominates everything.. i just dont want to sacrifice street handling, but still want to be able to go fast in a straight line. This is the closest that i can see without loosing what i love about the rx7; the handling.
i cant see any reasons it would..
at most a total of 200 bucks for all the tubing involved.
the pivot arms would cost about 200 each or so, for me to machine.
all the ball joints and bearings, mabey 200-300 bucks.
then the actual shocks.
so assuming that shocks are less than 1600 dollars, (and it looks like a good set will cost me around 600), its less than 2500.
And i am not trying to make something that dominates everything.. i just dont want to sacrifice street handling, but still want to be able to go fast in a straight line. This is the closest that i can see without loosing what i love about the rx7; the handling.
08-04-09, 07:49 PM
#36
Chaotic, you might find this site very interesting.
This guy started with an Atom- designed from the git-go with a suspension like you envision- and has spent a ton of time and money to get it to function (and last).
I don't doubt that you can fab up something that holds up the car body.
Making it work as well as the stock suspension will be difficult.
Making it work better than stock will be very difficult.
Assuming you make it past the nuances of the bellcrank design and bearing specs, you then have the fabulously intricate world of shock rebound and dampening rates to deal with, not to mention spring rates.
When I was GP racing- admittedly at the dawn of the on-board data acquision age- without the constant attention of factory Ohlins techs, we could not have dialed in the suspension...the multitude of variables was simply overwhelming.
Being a lifelong machinist/fabricator, I cheer your lofty ambition but fear that you have oversimplified the obstacles- and cost- involved in success.
For instance, a "good set" of shocks for $600?
Unless you have an in with a race team, $600 won't even buy a decent set of standard coilovers, much less the kind of shocks used in a remote setup.
I also notice that your cost estimate includes absolutely no labor.
If you want to discount your time/energy that's fine- in fact, damn near imperative- but do you really think a project of this scope will be done without any outside consultation/fabrication?
Maybe so, and my hat would be doffed in praise should it come to pass.
So I'll remain skeptical but interested.
Again, good luck.
This guy started with an Atom- designed from the git-go with a suspension like you envision- and has spent a ton of time and money to get it to function (and last).
I don't doubt that you can fab up something that holds up the car body.
Making it work as well as the stock suspension will be difficult.
Making it work better than stock will be very difficult.
Assuming you make it past the nuances of the bellcrank design and bearing specs, you then have the fabulously intricate world of shock rebound and dampening rates to deal with, not to mention spring rates.
When I was GP racing- admittedly at the dawn of the on-board data acquision age- without the constant attention of factory Ohlins techs, we could not have dialed in the suspension...the multitude of variables was simply overwhelming.
Being a lifelong machinist/fabricator, I cheer your lofty ambition but fear that you have oversimplified the obstacles- and cost- involved in success.
For instance, a "good set" of shocks for $600?
Unless you have an in with a race team, $600 won't even buy a decent set of standard coilovers, much less the kind of shocks used in a remote setup.
I also notice that your cost estimate includes absolutely no labor.
If you want to discount your time/energy that's fine- in fact, damn near imperative- but do you really think a project of this scope will be done without any outside consultation/fabrication?
Maybe so, and my hat would be doffed in praise should it come to pass.
So I'll remain skeptical but interested.
Again, good luck.
08-04-09, 10:53 PM
#37
I don't doubt it can be done for $2500. I doubt it can be done right for that price. Clokker said things well in the post above. 4 way coil overs with high and low speed dampening and rebound won't be as cheap as you think. If you like to read you might want to check out some of these books:
http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1...883#1956095883
http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1...883#1956095883
.
08-05-09, 10:25 AM
#42
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
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Chaotic, you might find this site very interesting.
This guy started with an Atom- designed from the git-go with a suspension like you envision- and has spent a ton of time and money to get it to function (and last).
I don't doubt that you can fab up something that holds up the car body.
Making it work as well as the stock suspension will be difficult.
Making it work better than stock will be very difficult.
Assuming you make it past the nuances of the bellcrank design and bearing specs, you then have the fabulously intricate world of shock rebound and dampening rates to deal with, not to mention spring rates.
When I was GP racing- admittedly at the dawn of the on-board data acquision age- without the constant attention of factory Ohlins techs, we could not have dialed in the suspension...the multitude of variables was simply overwhelming.
Being a lifelong machinist/fabricator, I cheer your lofty ambition but fear that you have oversimplified the obstacles- and cost- involved in success.
For instance, a "good set" of shocks for $600?
Unless you have an in with a race team, $600 won't even buy a decent set of standard coilovers, much less the kind of shocks used in a remote setup.
I also notice that your cost estimate includes absolutely no labor.
If you want to discount your time/energy that's fine- in fact, damn near imperative- but do you really think a project of this scope will be done without any outside consultation/fabrication?
Maybe so, and my hat would be doffed in praise should it come to pass.
So I'll remain skeptical but interested.
Again, good luck.
This guy started with an Atom- designed from the git-go with a suspension like you envision- and has spent a ton of time and money to get it to function (and last).
I don't doubt that you can fab up something that holds up the car body.
Making it work as well as the stock suspension will be difficult.
Making it work better than stock will be very difficult.
Assuming you make it past the nuances of the bellcrank design and bearing specs, you then have the fabulously intricate world of shock rebound and dampening rates to deal with, not to mention spring rates.
When I was GP racing- admittedly at the dawn of the on-board data acquision age- without the constant attention of factory Ohlins techs, we could not have dialed in the suspension...the multitude of variables was simply overwhelming.
Being a lifelong machinist/fabricator, I cheer your lofty ambition but fear that you have oversimplified the obstacles- and cost- involved in success.
For instance, a "good set" of shocks for $600?
Unless you have an in with a race team, $600 won't even buy a decent set of standard coilovers, much less the kind of shocks used in a remote setup.
I also notice that your cost estimate includes absolutely no labor.
If you want to discount your time/energy that's fine- in fact, damn near imperative- but do you really think a project of this scope will be done without any outside consultation/fabrication?
Maybe so, and my hat would be doffed in praise should it come to pass.
So I'll remain skeptical but interested.
Again, good luck.
that site IS very interesting, thanks for it.
do you really think that this will cost more than i think it will?
I am capable of doing all my own work, including machining.. so labor isn't an issure for me.
it looks like these shocks right here should work real well if i can figure out all the right math for the bellcranks.
http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/tpl/pr...p581896&mmyId=
it says i can tune my own rates and stuff for it.
08-05-09, 10:57 AM
#43
The expensive part isn't the fabrication, it's the R&D needed to refine the system. If you have 3D CAD software with simulation features, you could do all the theoretical calculations and FEA before manufacturing. This is just one of many challenges you will have to overcome when engineering a new suspension. Have at it!
08-05-09, 11:20 AM
#44
Grab some books on suspension design and have at it. In order for it to work right you need to get the ENTIRE PACKAGE right. A different bell crank change motion ratio, which will will increase/decrease effective spring rate and possibly suspension travel. Then the spring rates and lengths will need to be determined to match the bell crank motion ratio + suspension ratio. Then the dampers will need to be valved to match the springs, and have sufficient travel to match.
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