Please help anylyze my A/F ratio (Dyno results) pp13bnos?Slvr7?
10-13-02, 02:44 AM
#1
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
Please help anylyze my A/F ratio (Dyno results) pp13bnos?Slvr7?
This A/F chart boggles my mind. Someone tell me if it looks normal for a stock tuned car. I have no advance timing nor headers.
The car gets really rich (for an N/A) between 5 and 6 thousand rpms. Then it has this lean spike between 6 and 7. Then after 7 it plumats downward reaching around 11:1 A/F ratio at 8k. Its a nice even rollercoaster looking a/f ratio. Lots of ?s on it. Im looking forowered to a 14-14.5 A/F ratio that slvr7 has used as well as pp13bnos BUT when I leaned the AFC out (just to see the changes but not to officialy tune) to - 15% from 5.5-8.5k the original A/F ratio spike went up to 14 but nothing else did. So the other rpms were not effected. Just that spike. Jeff the dyno guy said that if I tune it at 5.5 only the car will actually have a delay on the a/f numbers so mabey that was it. BUT even with -15% the A/F still drops downward at 7.2k rpms on down. So I can richen it up even further. So far the S-AFC has given me only 2rwp tops at that peak level But the peak level has also raised in the RPM band and also does not drop off as much with the tunning.
As you can see that 7k rpms at -15% raised the bar from 13.0 to 14.0 A/F raising it 1 point even. So if 1 point equals -15% then -7% = .5 points and 4% = 2% so looking at the A/F chart say 5.5k rpms is 12.6 A/F so thats 1.4 points away from 14. Does this mean that I would be adding -15+ -7 = -22 points to = a 14.0 A/F ??? Isnt this the way it works ??? My estimations are on the graph.
Another ?. Why on the second run (red) did I lose power and torque when the S-AFC wasnt even tuned in those rpm bands? The dyno is accurate. Its brand spanking new and thier hasnt been to many people in from of me.
Another interesting fact is that my Torque seems to peak way heigher than anyone elses I have seen. At 6100 rpms it peaks with leaning it out more. Its funny but someone told me that richening it up makes more torque? After I get headers I will dyno it again. Then with the timing. Then with other things like TB porting and more S-AFC tuning within the weeks. Ill keep posted as long as people ansewer some of my ?s. Thnx alot for reading. Ask any ?s you like but everythings already stated I think.
The car gets really rich (for an N/A) between 5 and 6 thousand rpms. Then it has this lean spike between 6 and 7. Then after 7 it plumats downward reaching around 11:1 A/F ratio at 8k. Its a nice even rollercoaster looking a/f ratio. Lots of ?s on it. Im looking forowered to a 14-14.5 A/F ratio that slvr7 has used as well as pp13bnos BUT when I leaned the AFC out (just to see the changes but not to officialy tune) to - 15% from 5.5-8.5k the original A/F ratio spike went up to 14 but nothing else did. So the other rpms were not effected. Just that spike. Jeff the dyno guy said that if I tune it at 5.5 only the car will actually have a delay on the a/f numbers so mabey that was it. BUT even with -15% the A/F still drops downward at 7.2k rpms on down. So I can richen it up even further. So far the S-AFC has given me only 2rwp tops at that peak level But the peak level has also raised in the RPM band and also does not drop off as much with the tunning.
As you can see that 7k rpms at -15% raised the bar from 13.0 to 14.0 A/F raising it 1 point even. So if 1 point equals -15% then -7% = .5 points and 4% = 2% so looking at the A/F chart say 5.5k rpms is 12.6 A/F so thats 1.4 points away from 14. Does this mean that I would be adding -15+ -7 = -22 points to = a 14.0 A/F ??? Isnt this the way it works ??? My estimations are on the graph.
Another ?. Why on the second run (red) did I lose power and torque when the S-AFC wasnt even tuned in those rpm bands? The dyno is accurate. Its brand spanking new and thier hasnt been to many people in from of me.
Another interesting fact is that my Torque seems to peak way heigher than anyone elses I have seen. At 6100 rpms it peaks with leaning it out more. Its funny but someone told me that richening it up makes more torque? After I get headers I will dyno it again. Then with the timing. Then with other things like TB porting and more S-AFC tuning within the weeks. Ill keep posted as long as people ansewer some of my ?s. Thnx alot for reading. Ask any ?s you like but everythings already stated I think.
10-13-02, 04:13 AM
#7
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
j
will someone please explain why I get two spikes at the same rpm 6k for torque and HP with the -15%. Cant I get the rest to spike like this and gain mo fo hp?
Also in the first paragraph I mean lean it not richen it. Sorry if that threw you guys off.
Also in the first paragraph I mean lean it not richen it. Sorry if that threw you guys off.
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10-13-02, 10:26 PM
#11
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
Yes but first those two spikes at 6100 rpms only with the -15 percent from 5.5 - 8.5. How and why did it not effect the rest of my A/F ratio in the same manner as it did the a/f spike??? My other ?s are ^
10-14-02, 08:41 AM
#13
I think that ya just have to spend a hour or so on the dyno with a wideband. Finding out where your car runs best. BTW, mine was a 14.25 a/f ratio. My peak torque came at 6,500 and 121.6rwlbs. I have however made over 125rwlbs of torque.
If you have some time, and a very quite, straight, flat and rural road, get a stop watch, and measure times from different rpms. I liked doing a 40-70mph (Yeah, I know its mph, not rpms...but it'll work too.) in 2nd and 3rd gear. This is what I did, along with my butt dyno. Wich seems to point me in the right direction 90% of the time.
CJ
If you have some time, and a very quite, straight, flat and rural road, get a stop watch, and measure times from different rpms. I liked doing a 40-70mph (Yeah, I know its mph, not rpms...but it'll work too.) in 2nd and 3rd gear. This is what I did, along with my butt dyno. Wich seems to point me in the right direction 90% of the time.
CJ
10-14-02, 11:19 AM
#15
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
25k on engine rebuild. Idles perfect.
Streight pipe bonez exaust to single cat back
Custom short intake with long cone and forced air hose
Black magic fan
Normal spark plugs
Magnacore 10mm wires
Fully ported manifolds including engine side. Mild to aggressive porting.
TB mod including rerouted coolant line. No Porting
Pineapple racing sleeves cut shaved and J/B welded in so no rods or anything. No air pump (YET) and no a/c or p/s. around 200lb weight reduction.
Nitto drags on 16inch enkie RSE 18lb rims
Bonez clutch but glazed flywheel ( slipping bad when shifting) VDI wired high
THis is it. Some people make around 150 with my mods But I seem to be down on HP. Its funny because you make 170 but with only a 9.8 in the 1/4. I got a 9.8 on a terriably slipping clutch but you got a 9.8 with a stock car launch. My car feels healthy but isnt making the power I thought it was. I beat most N/As around here to.
S-AFC -15% percent only in high mode. The rest isnt tuned. Im not going to be using a wide band just the probe the guy uses in the tail pipe. So should a 14.0 a/f be higher or lower? and by how much because I can guestimate where I should be at. THnx And about the spikes when I went -. Also what about your 14.2 across the board. Can I do that through the whole powerband or just certain spots up top?
Streight pipe bonez exaust to single cat back
Custom short intake with long cone and forced air hose
Black magic fan
Normal spark plugs
Magnacore 10mm wires
Fully ported manifolds including engine side. Mild to aggressive porting.
TB mod including rerouted coolant line. No Porting
Pineapple racing sleeves cut shaved and J/B welded in so no rods or anything. No air pump (YET) and no a/c or p/s. around 200lb weight reduction.
Nitto drags on 16inch enkie RSE 18lb rims
Bonez clutch but glazed flywheel ( slipping bad when shifting) VDI wired high
THis is it. Some people make around 150 with my mods But I seem to be down on HP. Its funny because you make 170 but with only a 9.8 in the 1/4. I got a 9.8 on a terriably slipping clutch but you got a 9.8 with a stock car launch. My car feels healthy but isnt making the power I thought it was. I beat most N/As around here to.
S-AFC -15% percent only in high mode. The rest isnt tuned. Im not going to be using a wide band just the probe the guy uses in the tail pipe. So should a 14.0 a/f be higher or lower? and by how much because I can guestimate where I should be at. THnx And about the spikes when I went -. Also what about your 14.2 across the board. Can I do that through the whole powerband or just certain spots up top?
10-14-02, 05:40 PM
#18
My 1/4 times where in pretty hot weather. It also comes down to traction. Something, I never realy had. 
About my HP. Keep in mind, I also have the dual exaust, a ignition amp, and a mildly ported engine.
My advice is do some seat of the pants tuning, give it a tune up (If not done recently), do all the mods you plan on doing for awhile, then pay the couple hundred bucks to get it dyno tuned with a wide band.
Also note, that according to Ralph at Excessive motorsports, when you don't put the wideband in the o2 sensor hole, it won't read accurate. Keep that in mind.
Keep playing with it, and you'll notice a healthy difference. CJ
About my HP. Keep in mind, I also have the dual exaust, a ignition amp, and a mildly ported engine.
My advice is do some seat of the pants tuning, give it a tune up (If not done recently), do all the mods you plan on doing for awhile, then pay the couple hundred bucks to get it dyno tuned with a wide band.
Also note, that according to Ralph at Excessive motorsports, when you don't put the wideband in the o2 sensor hole, it won't read accurate. Keep that in mind.
Keep playing with it, and you'll notice a healthy difference. CJ
10-15-02, 01:33 AM
#19
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
So now your raving about headers? Thought everyone said it doesent do anything. I would like to why and how I can get my A/F ratio leveled out. I mean -15 percent and its still at 12.8 in the mid. ???
10-15-02, 05:24 AM
#20
No, no, no.....I'm not raving about headers. I'm just saying do all the mods to your car, you possiably can before getting the car dyno tuned. From what it sounded like before....you where planning on it anyways.
And the only way you'll ever get the a/f ratio level is by getting it tuned with a wide band.
Are'nt n/a kinda a waste for how much hp they put down vs. mods? I mean, everyone and there dog seems to think that if they throw on a exaust, and port the intake, they instantly have a 14s second car. Not that you did that or anything. But still, I love hearing dyno results. To bad 9 out of 10 people expect more hp out of there little n/a. CJ
And the only way you'll ever get the a/f ratio level is by getting it tuned with a wide band.
Are'nt n/a kinda a waste for how much hp they put down vs. mods? I mean, everyone and there dog seems to think that if they throw on a exaust, and port the intake, they instantly have a 14s second car. Not that you did that or anything. But still, I love hearing dyno results. To bad 9 out of 10 people expect more hp out of there little n/a. CJ
10-15-02, 08:48 AM
#21
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I recently spent 3 hours last week on the dyno tunning on wide-band. I am running into the same a/f ratio curve but it richens up at 5500. I am currently trouble-shooting it. Keep in touch with me and I will let you know what I find out.
10-16-02, 01:45 AM
#22
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
David vert. thnx I will.
pp13bnos? well its hard to explain to poeple butthis is my take. I can mod an n/a or a turbo. Either way thiers going to be a faster car like a v8 or turbo v6 that I can mod and go even faster.
My point is it doesent matter about how many G forces you pull wile excelerating. What matters to me is maxing out my N/A without a current street port. People with just headers and cat back were getting just as much if not mroe power than me wich makes me wonder if thier dynos are a little sketchy. Thats why I was a little confused. I actually hoped for 140 before I got thier and I got 141. But I was upset about the tuning and A/F I did. You cleared some of this up so its cool and I cant really say anythign till I go back.
About the N/A. Its my hobby to build this N/A to see how much power and 1/4 I can get out of it. Not HP ratings!!! Well yeah hp ratings for my car not compared to a turbo.
People have a misconception when it comes to N/As. See I beat this probe GT at 16lbs but his best was only 3 tenths faster than me with my slipping clutch. I have beat other cars with much more hp mabey because my launching and driving abilities who knows but when your beating stock turbo cars in an N/A the hard work pays off in ways I really didnt care about in the first place because thats not really my goal. Although after racing cars I doubted myself on I sort of think differently. I was even beating TypeR integras. They were getting 9.9s and The fastes GST eclipse was getting 9.8 and thier was 4 of them. Also I out handle my friends miata with just tires. So In my opinion my car is more of a drag and all around sports car than most peoples on the street. Hence it was 23 grand whenit first came out. This car can be whatever I want it to be N/A or not. Infact I just bought a 10lb battery and 2g wires for it and cut down 25lbs easy.
One more thing. You can have a turbo 7 with few mods and be faster than my N/A with 2 grand into it but the bottom line is that your turbo is just an average car for a turbo but my N/A is one of the fastes for an N/A. If you wanted to have the fastes turbo 7 it would cost you a new single turbo. Boost . fuel . ECU and should work its way up to 10grand maxed out im sure. After 1000 bucks and DIY mods I have beaten lots of N/As in my town especialy when myclutch was good.
pp13bnos? well its hard to explain to poeple butthis is my take. I can mod an n/a or a turbo. Either way thiers going to be a faster car like a v8 or turbo v6 that I can mod and go even faster.
My point is it doesent matter about how many G forces you pull wile excelerating. What matters to me is maxing out my N/A without a current street port. People with just headers and cat back were getting just as much if not mroe power than me wich makes me wonder if thier dynos are a little sketchy. Thats why I was a little confused. I actually hoped for 140 before I got thier and I got 141. But I was upset about the tuning and A/F I did. You cleared some of this up so its cool and I cant really say anythign till I go back.
About the N/A. Its my hobby to build this N/A to see how much power and 1/4 I can get out of it. Not HP ratings!!! Well yeah hp ratings for my car not compared to a turbo.
People have a misconception when it comes to N/As. See I beat this probe GT at 16lbs but his best was only 3 tenths faster than me with my slipping clutch. I have beat other cars with much more hp mabey because my launching and driving abilities who knows but when your beating stock turbo cars in an N/A the hard work pays off in ways I really didnt care about in the first place because thats not really my goal. Although after racing cars I doubted myself on I sort of think differently. I was even beating TypeR integras. They were getting 9.9s and The fastes GST eclipse was getting 9.8 and thier was 4 of them. Also I out handle my friends miata with just tires. So In my opinion my car is more of a drag and all around sports car than most peoples on the street. Hence it was 23 grand whenit first came out. This car can be whatever I want it to be N/A or not. Infact I just bought a 10lb battery and 2g wires for it and cut down 25lbs easy.
One more thing. You can have a turbo 7 with few mods and be faster than my N/A with 2 grand into it but the bottom line is that your turbo is just an average car for a turbo but my N/A is one of the fastes for an N/A. If you wanted to have the fastes turbo 7 it would cost you a new single turbo. Boost . fuel . ECU and should work its way up to 10grand maxed out im sure. After 1000 bucks and DIY mods I have beaten lots of N/As in my town especialy when myclutch was good.
10-17-02, 12:47 PM
#23
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Hey von,
sorry I can't help you out on the A/F questions. My one and only time on the dyno, the A/F logged fairly predictably, and responded to S-AFC changes. I'm posting the dyno sheet of my last run here, it is after tweaking the corrections. The first run showed a general richening trend up through the rpm, to a max of 12:1. There were two distinct 'steps' richer at about 5.5K and 6.7K, which I tried to 'tune out'.
As for your sheet, I don't know what to make of that curve
One thing, though - at WOT the computer is not using O2 readings in any way, it is following it's airflow - rpm - temp inputs to calculate fuel delivery. So, if there are any problems in the fuel system that could affect flow pressure or volume, the computer won't know and the engine could start trending lean.
By the way, notice how badly my torque curves reacts to opening ther 6th ports early (@3200 rpm). Gotta fix that somehow
sorry I can't help you out on the A/F questions. My one and only time on the dyno, the A/F logged fairly predictably, and responded to S-AFC changes. I'm posting the dyno sheet of my last run here, it is after tweaking the corrections. The first run showed a general richening trend up through the rpm, to a max of 12:1. There were two distinct 'steps' richer at about 5.5K and 6.7K, which I tried to 'tune out'.
As for your sheet, I don't know what to make of that curve
One thing, though - at WOT the computer is not using O2 readings in any way, it is following it's airflow - rpm - temp inputs to calculate fuel delivery. So, if there are any problems in the fuel system that could affect flow pressure or volume, the computer won't know and the engine could start trending lean.
By the way, notice how badly my torque curves reacts to opening ther 6th ports early (@3200 rpm). Gotta fix that somehow
10-18-02, 12:56 AM
#25
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
pp13bnos ! Ok, I just got done istalling the headers today so I will be putting it on the dyno tomorow with your settings pp13bnos. I dont like my but dyno because it lies to me. I will report back with the results of both headers and your settings seperate then together...About the headers!!! I should make another thread but I will keep it here.
My original setup was a streight pipe bonez exaust to a custom single cat-back.
Instalation was easy and fit like a glove except it took me 2 hours to do because my cat-back system would not budge backwards that extra 1/2 inch that I needed it to get over the studs. So I took a crow bar to it and ended up damaging the gasket but i used it anyways.
First impressions was awsome. The car was as quiet as my original streight pipe setup all the way to 4k. After 4k it starts getting real buzzzy like a chainsaw and a honda. To my surprise it wasnt loud at all. It was slightly louder than my bonez race pipe. This made my day because I thought it would be to loud. I dont know what the hell everyone for the past 1.5 years has been talking about on this forum because my **** is under 93 decibal limit. People must be driving around with intake leaks or something. Anyways it sounds awsome and I should have done this a long time ago. At cruze its the same if not quieter than the race pipe at certain throttle rpm levels. By the way I had the windows rolled up and sunroof open. I didnt notice an effect in power but I havent noticed a difference in power when I put my race pipe on over the cat system. Im just num I guess. I will post dyno results tomorow.
My original setup was a streight pipe bonez exaust to a custom single cat-back.
Instalation was easy and fit like a glove except it took me 2 hours to do because my cat-back system would not budge backwards that extra 1/2 inch that I needed it to get over the studs. So I took a crow bar to it and ended up damaging the gasket but i used it anyways.
First impressions was awsome. The car was as quiet as my original streight pipe setup all the way to 4k. After 4k it starts getting real buzzzy like a chainsaw and a honda. To my surprise it wasnt loud at all. It was slightly louder than my bonez race pipe. This made my day because I thought it would be to loud. I dont know what the hell everyone for the past 1.5 years has been talking about on this forum because my **** is under 93 decibal limit. People must be driving around with intake leaks or something. Anyways it sounds awsome and I should have done this a long time ago. At cruze its the same if not quieter than the race pipe at certain throttle rpm levels. By the way I had the windows rolled up and sunroof open. I didnt notice an effect in power but I havent noticed a difference in power when I put my race pipe on over the cat system. Im just num I guess. I will post dyno results tomorow.