Your car has issues, Guys on this forum are spooling T72's with big exhuast sides at 5500rpm, sounds like you should have checked the wastegate, or got the car tuned or something, a T04 in that spec should have 10psi be 4000rpm. I think some people have v8 mentalty they want power from idle thru to redline - all well in good if your redline is 5000rpm (where' 4000rpm race man ted when you need him) but you gotta remember our motors are designed to pull 7500+Rpm, and unless you use those rpm you aren't getting true potential performance from your motor. having 4000rpm of power spread is all well and good, in a big cube motor its from 1500 to 5500rpm, in a turbo'd rotary set up right its from 4000/4500 to 8000/8500rpm
same power spread, just in a different rpm range

 

6k to spool your turbo eh?? well my frend has a 60-1 with the same specs and spools at 3k so WTF is wrong with your car??

 

your small little turbo's can't do ****. put that thing away.

 

I'm not saying its NOT spooling at 4k it will run 10 psi at 4k rpms , but the car doesn't start MOVING until the compressor really starts spinning (ie I am not moving the volume to get into the efficiency range at low rpms) and on top of that I don't have a ported motor or an REW motor so I don't have much more usable flow on top end anyway. IF you have a 3rd gen your car will be much more stable for a larger turbo (stock ports) than a stock 87 block I assure you. I will include a link for you guys of Mike L's dyno comparison sheet from various people. you will see the EXACT trend I am talking about. Yes I agree with you that a drag car should make power from 5500-8k rpms because the gear changes drop you RIGHT BACK into the power band. But if your MOTOR isn't setup for a larger turbine I think you would be happier with a smaller, more useable, easier tuned, flatter powerband. I was almost sure that the lag was caused by the fact that I am still running the stock ecu with an AIC, but after reviewing the dynos on Mike's site I have determined that its the turbo's problem and not neccessarily the fact that I don't have a ported motor or haltech. I guess I am just saying that I was happier running cheap hybrid (with stock unclipped turbine - running 111 mph on a stock block UNTUNED) than having to do ALL the work converting to a T04 and then dropping my 1/4 time and mph!? Granted the motor was blown, but not the first coupla passes and I wasn't THAT impressed with the turbo. You guys also have to realize how much of a difference the first 2 gears make in a 1/4 mile run as well. Haven't you ever seen a top fuel dragster break within 1 sec and still run a 9 or 8 second pass?

Thats my .02 guys. I also autocross the car and have determined that it is now not very competitive with the larger .96 on it. Well I will have another motor within a week (S5 this time), and I will try to swap on my (EEK!) .70 turbine housing and tell you guys what I think then and back it up with some 1/4 times. I do plan on running a haltech soon enough, and almost had it saved until I blew her up. We'll see guys.
Later,
Patrick

Dyno comparison
http://www.brfoundation.com/rx-7/dynocomp1.htm

 

And as for your snide remark about turbo sizes look at my kitchen floor. Of course I don't know what turbo you run, but here are mine:
www.borg.com/turbos1.jpg
www.borg.com/turbos2.jpg
The T04/S04 (biggest one) is for sale 550.00 you ship.

Speaking of V8 mentality, I also would like to just toss this out:
I also have an 86 converted for an Lt1 and 6 speed (everythings done just needs a motor and tranny) so I was thinking about building a 400 rwhp Lt1 and then putting a large shot of the spray on it (ie 150-200 shot). Maybe then I would keep up with Kyle's 3rd gen with the Lt1 in it. If You wanna take a fun ride I suggest you go ride in a moster V8 powered REX. 10's is EASY on that setup and boy does it spool fast . Just to inform you he ran 12.55 @ 109 in my 2nd gen car with completly STOCK LT1. Now its got a full build and ported heads with bigger valves etc. and its in a 3rd gen so we will see how fast it runs soon enough.
Patrick

 

we don't need no stinken low RPM's

 

HWO.
Lets talk some A/R ratios. The stock series 5 a/r ratio is around a 1.00. Get this, when you put a larger turbine wheel in the factory housing you open up the a/r ratio making the housing more efficient. Ofcourse the factory turbine housings aren't as efficient as like a tangential t4 housing, but you can get very good response and some damn good power by gettting your turbo upgraded to certain specs. When I got Ian's turbo, he told me he wanted 300 RWHP. He said anything above that will be icing on the cake. Hybrids are not for full, all out race cars. They are for folks on a budget and need bang for the buck! Most people with hybrid upgrades have few mods done to their cars, and a mojority of them are on the stock ECU. They are looking for a turbo that makes power under 15 psi of boost. When they come to me for help and they are looking for more power, I give them options... One of my stage 3's with a clipped stock turbine wheel with a 60-1 compressor put down 332 RWHP at 14 psi of boost!! That is great for a STOCK MODIFIED TURBINE WHEEL!!!!! Cheap, easy bolt on power!!! Another guy with a stage 2 made a 12.3 pass at 114 mph on 18" radial tires! again, you cant beat the bang for the buck!


Lets talk To4 turbine housings. Say a stock one VS. a T04 Tangential.

Stock ofcourse its 100% bolt up! Everyone likes something simple!!!

Depending on what turbine wheel that is in the turbo debates its efficiency! The bigger the turbine wheel, the better the wastegate will handle boost creep. The bigger the turbine wheel, the more efficient boost you can run! Back pressure is releived when you clip a turbine wheel and/or also when you machine the housing!!!

I love hybrid upgrades myself! They are easy to work with, install, good performance .

T04 turbine housings. You can gain around 30 RWHP by bolting up a t04 turbine housing. That is a good thing about t04's.

BAD things. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ you better bring out your wallot b/c you need a:

Turbo manifold
High dollar external wastegate
oil supply and drain lines that are custom
custom intake system
custom down pipe with WG pulumbed in exhaust
custom intercooler pipe
any thing to add to this 2500 dollar investment??? oh yeah, a headache!!! lol

Don't think i don't love t4's Every turbo has its advantages and dis advantages. Just don't shun the turbos. People have different needs, and thats why I am doing what I can to bring em some good stuff!!!

Take care,
Bryan
www.bnrsupercars.com

 

A reason why Patricks turbo doesn' spool until late is the timing. When you look at a timing map in like a power FC in a 3rd gen you often times see 40 degrees advance! That is sick!!!! Timing has everything to do with spool up.

Bryan

 

Yup, as Bryan said I gave him some guidlines to work with on the rebuild.

1. Want 300 RWHP
2. Don't want boost creep at top of 5th
3. Don't want to run super high boost

The turbo I had needed a rebuild, including a new turbine- so I decided to spend the additional $$ for an upgraded rebuild.

I am breaking in my engine on this turbo and if I like the rest of my set-up and want more power I will spend the extra ~$2000 on a full T04 (and its associated custom downpipe, oil lines, manifold, WG etc.)

I'm new to learning about turbos so maybe you guys can help me w/ some questions. How do you guys calculate the turbo's exhaust flow and decide it is not enough w/ out knowing AR? Why do you guys keep comparing different turbo's lag w/ out mentioning exhaust set-up/size?

It may be a while untill I get to run this, but I will definitely let you guys know how it works out. The rest of the car set-up is the sig.

 

For just 300rwhp a hybrid will work AWESOME, no doubt in my mind. I am realistically looking for atleast 375 and would like more. You just have to realize the limits that you are dealing with an make sure you get what you want!

Daniel

 

The stock exhuast manifold is a P.O.S, its one of the good things to find the rubbish bin when you change ya turbo. Exhuast manifold design is a KEY factor in spool up.

If i were to do a Hybrid it wouldn't be with a S4 or S5 turbo anyway, I'd get a CT26 from an MR2, put a T04 57 trim compressor on the front of it and make up a fully divided manifold with an external wastegate to go with it.

 

Have you ever seen a 90 style turbo with a fully divided STOCK setup? maybe THAT's why you don't know how fast a turbo can spool and make good power. FYI, the stock S5 turbos are divided manifolds made to match the divided turbine housings, with divided wastegates. I am also still amazed by your lack of personal experience (ie. what turbo are you running?) please give factual (dyno or 1/4 mile) proven results.
Patrick

 

Yes i know what the S5 manifold and turbo look like, i also know that its better to hyridize a S4 turbo due to the the exhuast turbine inlet angle as apposed to the Series 5 exhuast housing, the S5 gets alot of surge when running 15+psi thru it and the S4 having a different 'angle of attack' you could call it doesn't get this.

You have obivously never seen the results a properly built divide manifold of the optimum length with give a turbo'd motor in regards to reduced lag.


I am soon to be running a T04, 1.15A/R divided housing, Fully divided custom manifold with each runner close enough to 13 inches long (optimum length) and a 40mm wastegate off each runner. Compressor is a 60-1 in a 0.70a/r comp housing. My motor has RICE RACING spec primary ports and turbo spec Bridge ported secondaries. I have built the thing after hours consualting Peter Giljevic (RICE RACING), My car is a circut car not a drag car, but i should be able to run 11's on road tyres and either very low 11's or high 10's slicks - this will be with slightly altered circut suspension.

Peter believes my set up should have somewhere around 530-550HP at 20psi running in a safe as houses state of tune in regards to A/F ratio and Ignition timing advance. I have tinkered with 2nd gen turbos for 4 1/2 years and over that time have helps a few guys with their set ups, all their set ups are hyrbid turbos, and they all are strangled once they hit 6000+rpm.

My set up will all be in and tuned by the end of the year so we'll see what sorta numbers i can make wont we....

 

For what its worth does anyone have a copy of 87GTR's 372rwhp dyno sheet? 372rwhp with a stock motor with a T04E with a 0.96A/R exhuast, Haltech and 4 x 720's running 14psi (injectors maxed out)

 

(quote)-You have obivously never seen the results a properly built divide manifold of the optimum length with give a turbo'd motor in regards to reduced lag.

OK, a custom optimized length divided length manifold alone would easily cost more than my hybrid rebuild! I can't understand your whole point in posting negative comments on the hybrid and comparing it to full T04 w/ custom details. Thats like me posting that your new half bridge motor is crap because it doesn't measure up to a Mazda race 4 rotor P-port and would never last the full 24 hours of Lemans- let alone win it. Apples to oranges, man!

You did mention that your choice of hybrid would be based off MR2 turbo- sounds interesting! Does anyone do this for the FC? Do you use recyled factory parts or would you have to custom fab stuff?

I certainly plan on stepping up to full T04 as I learn to tune, drive and if I can keep the motor together.

(quote)-For what its worth does anyone have a copy of 87GTR's 372rwhp dyno sheet? 372rwhp with a stock motor with a T04E with a 0.96A/R exhuast, Haltech and 4 x 720's running 14psi (injectors maxed out)

See, this is exactly the type of set-up I wanted to avoid. I have tried to optimize VE and manifold flow w/ out expensive custom work and parts so I won't have to run high boost on a big *** turbo. 14psi on a T04E "only" 372hp shows his engine is really not able to breathe doesn't it? Stock ports, stock manifold and small exhaust probably. I would rather spend the money on the porting, manifold work and exhaust first to boost the VE and then step up the turbo later. Its about balance to me. I spent the $$ of a T04 on my coilovers/suspension during my current build-up and I feel this will help maintain the balance of the car.

Glad we got some real discussion going w/ this post anyways, beats the airpump or NA to turbo posts anyday!

Oh, and I was serious about when I asked why no one asked the hybrids AR. I know it is a relationship of scroll cross sectional area (A) to distance from center of scroll to center of housing (R). But isn't this altered when the housing is bored for the larger exhaust wheel and so the bottom part of the scroll is cut out. I certainly widens the "slots" the exhaust must squeeze through to reach the turbine, so easing flow -and the turbine area is larger w/ the bigger turbine so easing flow.

Also serious about the turbo back exhaust question. Isn't ulimate exhaust flow largely influenced by post turbo exhaust system? As you saw in my sig I am running 3 1/2" turbo back straight through.

Do you think this hybrid will meet my requirements w/ the set-up I have?
1. 300RWHP
2. No boost creep at top of 5th
3. Not super high boost

Ian

 

Hmm, I was poking around E-bay looking for deals on perspective parts for a future full T04 upgrade and saw some things...

There is a $450 Dutch auction on new T04B 60-1 Hi-Fi turbos (same compressor section I have, I believe) w/ big 1.15 exhaust AR and "P" trim exhaust turbines. I couldn't tell if it was divided exhaust housing or not- but since it wasn't mentioned I tend to think not. This sounds like a good turbo for a TII! Or do you think if I bother w/ the expense of full turbo upgrade I should go larger than T04B?

 

I just want to say thanks to Bryan from BNR. I am about to send you my series 5 turbo in the next couple weeks for a stage 4 upgrade. We have traded emails about this in the past. I am going to be running a Haltech and 1600cc secondaries to handle it (with an external fuel pump).

Your response put me very much at ease with getting your stage 4 done to my turbo. I will email you soon when I send it out.

Chris

 

Why in the hell would you run an EVEN smaller turbine housing from a Supra on your car instead of the RX-7 stocker?? That is just contradicting yourself saying that! I just re-read what you would do and my Best friend Ben has an upgraded 60-1 instead of the CT26 on his MKIII and the upgrade neccesitated a MUCH larger turbine and housing because of how fast it drops off on a piston motor. Hmph
Patrick

 

Have you ever tried a CT26 from a MR2 on a 13B?
Rice Racing reckons they are good for 330HP on a 13B in the stock form they come off a MR2... now there is food for though is it not?

blue T2 (i think)
Does custom fabrication work cost the earth in the US? it doesn't over here, getting things fabricated is part of the kiwi way of life, you want something, you design it all up and possibly make a model of it (as i have done with my exhuast manifold) and take it to your locak engineer and say "i want this made outta XX steel and this bit made outta Xy steel"

Getting a manifold made up doesn't cost the earth, it works out to be around $250US over here, well under the cost of a hybridise and rebuild for the turbo.

 

Yes, unfortunately fabrication does cost a whole lot over here. Everyone thinks their time is worth a lot of $$. If you know the right people you can get some deals.

Maybe someone should import some SS turbo manifolds from NZ to US- we pay $250 for the cast iron T04 manifolds...

 

CT26's are about = to a HT18 in size. The exhaust housings are a bit smaller on the CT's. The factory compressor wheels are about the same as a stock t2. CT 26's are great to upgrade b/c the compressor housings have a lot more material to machine off! You can easily slap a 60-1 on it and go. But the bad thing is, the Turbine wheel can't be replaced! It must be either clipped or go with a Garrett T3 style conversion, which costs money! I have built many CT26 upgrades for all the Toyotas... Mr2's, Supras, and the Celica.

Hey Chris, I am looking forward to doing your turbo! Let me know when you want this done, and I'll have a turbo sittin here ready to go for ya....

Bryan
www.bnrsupercars.com

 

Eh TO4E housings no good?
is there a fitment problem with using TO4E housings

 

I have "heard" that the T04B 60-1 HI-FI is the largest compressor section that fits w/ stock CHRA and stock manifold w/ out interfering w/ intake manifold (and even it has to be "clocked" to avoid interference.)
I haven't checked out the fitment on mine yet...

Not sure if you could space the turbo manifold out like the NA to turbo guys do to make a larger compressor fit. Seems possible, but you may have issues w/ wastegate actuator to frame rail clearance like they do.

 

This is (I am pretty sure) what BDC runs on his car. 425 RWHP. I think his exhaust side may be smaller... but the compressor is a 60-1 hi-fi.

Brad

 

Brian runs a T04 - 0.96A.R single entry exhuast housing, P trim turbine, 60-1 Hi-Fi with a 0.60 or 0.5A/R comp housing
it has the 2 1/2 inlet not the 4 inch like the 0.70A/R comp housing has