homey_v

I just have a general question about 4 bolt rims and 5 bolt.
I was told that 4 bolt can't handle as much power as 5 bolt.

well if this is true how much power can a 4 bolt handle compared to 5 bolts?

I was informed that on fc the 4 bolts can only handle to about 220hp. True?

staticguitar313

iTrader: (2)

just swap to 5 lug setup and dont worry about how much 4 lug can hold, they are inferior

RETed

There no real answer to that question.
There's too much other variables to worry about.
Even 1,000hp on ultra-hard street tires pumped up to 50psi should not break - it should just spin the tires.
If you're already running a BASE MODEL with the 4-bolt hubs, the 13B NA engine can't get more than 200hp to the wheels anyways, so it's not something to worry about.
You'll break the NA transmission, rear end, and rear axles before you shear the wheel studs on the 4-bolt hubs!!!

If you want to strenghten your 4-bolt hubs, swap in a set of ARP aftermarket wheel studs, and it should be able to handle anything you throw at it.


-Ted

IaMtHeRuThLeSs1

hp doesnt break rims, torque (in theory) will. But you will NEVER make enough power to break a rim, unless you run over some bricks at 80mph.

p4nc7

iTrader: (1)

Or overtighten your lugnuts =)

homey_v

ah ok ok. so question what if the fc had a ls1 swap or t2 swap? im guessing even though you have a big power gain it should not bother the 4 bolt hubs right? so other then looks and bigger rims I do not need to convert to 5 bolt correct?

staticguitar313 said that 4 bolts are inferior. Why?

Falcoms

Lets just say that some people on this forum talk before they know the answer for sure. Anyway, if you want to switch to aftermarket wheels, it's easier to find 5-lug wheels than 4-lug, so that may be incentive to upgrade to the 5-lug hub (wow, what's with all these rhyming words?). Anyway, the stock 5-lug wheels are also 15" or 16" diameter, whereas the 4-lug wheels are 14" dia., making it more worth while to switch to 5-lugs also (lower profile, though not by much in this case, reduces sidewall flex and improves handling). Overall, the point is that 4 or 5 lug hubs don't really matter on these cars unless you switch to an LS1 or 20B where you MAY make enough torque to break the lugs (probably due just to age more than sheer torque). Just FYI.

Oh, and listen to RETed, he knows his shiznit about these cars inside and out.

JamesBong

One thing about the 5 lug setup; it came with four pot callipers for stronger brakes. If you have the four lug, you only have one piston. 4 bolts is inferior because it is less than 5.

p4nc7

iTrader: (1)

My FC has 5 lug and only has one piston calipers. And no, 4 is NOT inferior. Just slightly stronger because each stud is under load for less time.

homey_v

ah ok I understand now thank you!

but about what JamesBong about the the car with 5 lugs with stronger brakes, can't a 4 lug fc simply upgrade it's breaks?


well thank you all for teaching me!

Falcoms

^ Nope. The hub for the 5 lug is designed to hold the 4-pot calipers, whereas the 4 lug hub is made for the single pot calipers. All in all, the bolt pattern is all wrong. Oh, and the rears on a 5 lug are still single pot, but vented disk (as opposed to solid) to allow for more braking efficiency (though slightly). All in all, the 5 lug system is better because of several factors:

1) 4 piston calipers in front, vented singles in rear

2) more available aftermarket wheels

3) more torque handling ability (though this is not really a big deal)

RETed

You know what...
DO that engine swap first, and then we'll see if you need to upgrade what you have or not.
Too many people talk too much pipe dreams, and it just ends up being a waste of time.



-Ted

PureSephiroth

you're not going to be breaking any rims even if you make 10 billion horsepower unless you're hooking up off the line. You're gonna spin your tires before you break your studs so don't even worry about it unless you're running some serious rubber on those tiny phone dials.

torean

pick up any book on material properties..and u'll find out that the shear modulus/area of the stud/number of stud determins the amount of load it will take before it shears off. trust me...those numbers are alot higher then what ur car will/can make....

assuming the studs are made of steel and hasnt been overtightened/stretched has a shear modulus of 11,800 ksi(kilo psi) times the area of the stud times the number of studs will give u the total amound of load required to completely shear the studs off of ur rim, even with a factor of safty of 4/5 u will not be able to make that power on the stock equipment....like ted said.....u will break everything else on ur car before those studs give....so dont worry bout it

most ppl just do it cause bling bling wheels/breaks are easier to find with 5 bolt patterns

JamesBong

Why does everyone look at every problem here in respects to drag launches and strait line driving? What are you, a bunch of NASCAR freaks? One major benifit of a five lug application is better lateral holding. If you race twisties, this is important, especially if you like rough back roads with lots of hairpins. Also, better brakes are always important if you drive hard. It dosn't matter weather you have an NA that barely gets 90HP to the wheels, or a 400HP super tricked out TII; you still have the same inertia to overcome slamming on the brakes at 90mph. If you drive hard, I'd upgrade the brakes, rims and suspension first. Then take a driving course, then work on horsepower. If you make yourself safe first, the levels of insanity you can reach are that much higher.

jhammons01

5 lug vs 4 lug = 20% greater strength. Wheel Repair Specialist, A company I help form in 2001. WE NEVER SAW broken wheels due to lug failure. We saw planty of performance wheels that had BENT outer hoops. The lugs/spokes were rarely broken or cracked. Even the accident wheels rarely had lug failure.

Torean is right Youngs modulus=facts

RETed

I would think shearing strength is weaker than tensile and compression strength for the wheel studs...but I might be wrong.

I have seen sheared wheel studs.
I have NEVER seen pulled wheels stud failures.


-Ted

torean

ur right....compressive/tensile properties for steel is higher than its shear numbers, for the same steel its about 30,000 ksi of pressure needed for compression. what car was the sheared wheel stud from?....its possible that due to over tightening of the nuts that the stud lost its material properties then after applying shear force that could result to a failure.

also....better for lateral holding?.......how many cars have u seen throws a wheel while cornering?...if anything the tires loses its grip before the lateral force can even stretch the studs

JamesBong

All I'm saying is that, having seen wheels inexplicably fly off of wierd european 3-lug hubs, I'd rather have five than four. I'm no mechanical engineer, but I figured that something held on with five nuts has a stronger connection than four. I wasn't talking so much about the studs braking.

i'll shut up now.

wthdidusay82

iTrader: (15)

i have an 88 base na with 4 lug and i have to say , going to 5 lug is one of the last things i plan on doing. You really dont need to worry about them not holding enough power because the most power you can dream to possibly make on s4 n/a is about 170whp or about 200 at the flywheel with tuning, if youre lucky you may get 200-220 on the flywheel with lots of mods and really good tuning...but even with that much power its doubtful to break the the studs, i believe the silvia's in japan all came with 4 lugs and they were all turbo models with 200+ base hp

changing to 5 lug, getting the calipers/pads etc, getting new tires/rims and balancing/mounting will probably cost you a good chunk of change, probaly like 300-1000 dollars or more , depending on if u get used rims/tires , or new rims and tires... this upgrade is if you have a big need for bigger wider tires, but imho if youre running stock this upgrade is just a waste of money and going to weigh the car down more and make your car stop faster and accelerate slower

torean

hahahaha....are u serious?....would u happen to have a video...im curious now....never seen a 3 hub wheel before....

RETed

Nah, it was an extreme example from big power V8 drag racers.
I'm talking close to 1,000hp on 14"+ slicks in the rear on stock studs...
It has happened at the drag strip before.


Yep.
Even with slicks, I've never seen a vehicle "throw a wheel" on the road race course.


-Ted

JamesBong

Ya, it's one of those little tin can cars that can't be imported here, like the bottom of the line Renault or Citroen. Three lug 14 or 15" pizzacutter rims. This friend drove it like a maniac, and I swear would get it up on two wheels regularly. I'll have to see if I have any pictures, but it was like 14 years ago.

Richter12x2

iTrader: (1)

I don't think it's a safety concern going with 5 lugs over 4, but I'm doing the conversion because the five lug has a better "torque moment". What I mean to say is that instead of each lug being primarily responsible for 90 degrees of rotation, each will be responsible for 72 degrees of rotation. I don't know all the physics stuff in regards to this, and part of why I'm doing it is because the wheels I want are 5 lugs, and not available for the 4. But logically speaking, go get a jar of mayo from your refrigerator, tighten the lid as much as you can with 5 fingers, then try to remove it with 4. So, in my mind, 5 lugs transfers torque to the object (i.e. ground, via wheel) better than 4. In closing my Mazda pickup had six lugs and still sheared two of them. :P