No Spark and Other Weirdness
07-31-02, 07:57 PM
#26
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Good on the .0000 . Now do the things in the above post. I'm pretty sure the relay be gone **** up. If looking at the main relay, there are two coils shown, and inbetween them is a contact shown in the open position. When the relay is pulled in (which you heard when disconnecting it) that set of contacts are not making.
If you had everything connected up and could jumper the black/green wire to the black/yellow, then the car would start i.e. you would have 12v then at the lead coil assy. I'd just go to the wreck yard and get me one or if you have a buddy with a rx, swap his in. Bum realy for pretty much sure.
If you had everything connected up and could jumper the black/green wire to the black/yellow, then the car would start i.e. you would have 12v then at the lead coil assy. I'd just go to the wreck yard and get me one or if you have a buddy with a rx, swap his in. Bum realy for pretty much sure.
07-31-02, 08:06 PM
#28
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Hey! Heres how to positively prove the relay is bad. Turn the key on. Pull the round connector on and off a few times. Here the relay click. Make sure it the main relay clicking as you pull it apart and then back together. It probably does click. So you know that you have 12v approx at the black/green wire. You said so earlier I think. So put the plug together, hear it click. Now with the meter neg on the battery neg, take a sharp needle and puncture the black yellow wire on the rectangular plug for the relay. Put your meter to the needle and see if you have 12v or not. Probably not. That proves beyond a doubt the relay is no good. What happen?????? I'm not going to write for the next ten minutes because we're stepping on each other i.e. writing at the same time. Its 8;12 pm.
07-31-02, 08:35 PM
#30
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Positive proof of the relay being bad. No dinner until the new used relay goes in and the car starts. THEN, DIN, DIN. Porterhouse steak, baked potato... the works! Have fun and let us know the results. Oh yeah, and a Cuban cigar. I know you have them down there somewhere. Black market somewhere down there.
07-31-02, 08:45 PM
#31
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Thread Starter
I'm a NY Strip man myself. I keep kicking myslef because as I passed through customs coming back in from the Bahamas the officer on duy just smiled, welcomed us all back home and wave us on. I KNOW the old bastard behind me on the charter smuggled some Monte Cristos back in because his little grandson kept talking about them and the old coot just kept laughing and laughing. Damn. I've already got a call into a friend with a donor TII for the relay 
It kind of bothers mne that the relay passed all the test this morning. I was 100% sure in my mind that it was the relay at fault. I guess I can pull it off, apply 12v to it and check the voltage at the b/y lead that way too. BTW, here in Jax (NE FL) we are home to Swisher Tobacco Co., makers of the mighty fine Philly Blunt and the classic Swisher Sweets. Go figure. G'night.
B
It kind of bothers mne that the relay passed all the test this morning. I was 100% sure in my mind that it was the relay at fault. I guess I can pull it off, apply 12v to it and check the voltage at the b/y lead that way too. BTW, here in Jax (NE FL) we are home to Swisher Tobacco Co., makers of the mighty fine Philly Blunt and the classic Swisher Sweets. Go figure. G'night. B
07-31-02, 09:42 PM
#32
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Thread Starter
By looking at the wiring diagram, I can see that since we were getting ~12v on the b/w lead in the BA05 connector on the main relay we could rule out the circuit opening relay. It's pretty sad that I can now, almost, comprehend wiring diagrams due to the amount of um, restoration I've been doing on the TII.
Hmmm. Remember my last thread about a non-functioning BAC? Well, I just checked out the 88 FSM 50 Wiring Diagram page 31 and it seems that the BAC is on the main relay circuit too. Or is it?
Hmmm. Remember my last thread about a non-functioning BAC? Well, I just checked out the 88 FSM 50 Wiring Diagram page 31 and it seems that the BAC is on the main relay circuit too. Or is it?
08-01-02, 12:19 PM
#33
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Oh. Went to sleep. The 12v for the bac comes from the MAIN RELAY, but what causes it to open and close at 120hz, is the ground signal being pulsed from the ECU.
There was yet another way to have checked and made sure it was the relay. You could leave the round connector on the relay, take the other plug off (four socket I think) and turn the key to on. YOu should hear the relay pull in. Then get you meter out and put it on ohms. Then touch one lead to the pin that the black/green wire goes to and then the other lead to where the black/white lead goes to. You would have continuity if the relay was any good. NOTE: I'm talking about dealing with the part of the connector that is a part of the relay, not the part of the plug where the green/black and black/white wires are attached. Just the pins on the connector that would mate with the green/black and black/white if the two halves of the connector were connected.
There was yet another way to have checked and made sure it was the relay. You could leave the round connector on the relay, take the other plug off (four socket I think) and turn the key to on. YOu should hear the relay pull in. Then get you meter out and put it on ohms. Then touch one lead to the pin that the black/green wire goes to and then the other lead to where the black/white lead goes to. You would have continuity if the relay was any good. NOTE: I'm talking about dealing with the part of the connector that is a part of the relay, not the part of the plug where the green/black and black/white wires are attached. Just the pins on the connector that would mate with the green/black and black/white if the two halves of the connector were connected.
Last edited by HAILERS; 08-01-02 at 12:39 PM.
08-01-02, 12:48 PM
#34
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Well, I pulled the relay off the car, applied 8v, heard the relay close and now find I get 0.000 resistance and I get continuity. I pulled the case off the relay and actually watched it close both sides properly. Crap-A-Doodle.
I applied the voltage to the round connector and measured the resistance on the 4-prong plug.
I applied the voltage to the round connector and measured the resistance on the 4-prong plug.
08-01-02, 01:19 PM
#35
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I got the voltage going into the main from the circuit opening relay at 11v (b/w wire in white connector), I got 11v going into the 4-prong (b/g that feeds the coils after switched) and with the relay connected I only get 1.3v on the b/y lead going to the coils. So, even though the relay closes with voltage applied and there's continuity, the relay can STILL malfunction and not allow max voltage to pass to the coils. I'm wondering if the 12v from the B/G wire is even getting INTO the relay, i.e. maybe the connector is shot at that point and not allowing current to flow through the relay to be switched. I'll let you know when I get the replacement relay in. I think in the interim I'll try to splice a new connector on and see how that goes.
B
B
08-01-02, 04:08 PM
#36
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Update: After checking for continuity between the female, main relay connector and the coil connector I found no shorts and almost no resistance. I also tore down the relay connectors and checked continuity on all leads and they all passed. I'm left with just the relay having something whacked inside.
08-02-02, 08:24 PM
#39
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With the key on, when you pull the round connector on and off at the relay, does it still click? If the relay is pulling in, then the BG wire should make contact with the BY wire thru the contact in the relay. You checked the BG wire and it had 12volts, so you should have gotten 12v on the BY and the coil should have had 12v to work with.
The only other thing that makes sense, is the voltage on the BG wire is breaking down when a load is put on it. I'd pull the plug apart and make sure the 12v is still on the BG wire with the key on. Then I'd connect the plug back together and using a needle, ***** the BG wire and put your meter on the needle to see if the BG still has 12v under load (not much of a load to be truthful).
Actually that written above might be the clue. If the BG wires voltage drops from 12v to the 1.3v??? like you saw earlier, then its either the 40amp fuse is not making a good connection, OR some other device downstream from the relay is pulling the voltage down big time.
The only other thing that makes sense, is the voltage on the BG wire is breaking down when a load is put on it. I'd pull the plug apart and make sure the 12v is still on the BG wire with the key on. Then I'd connect the plug back together and using a needle, ***** the BG wire and put your meter on the needle to see if the BG still has 12v under load (not much of a load to be truthful).
Actually that written above might be the clue. If the BG wires voltage drops from 12v to the 1.3v??? like you saw earlier, then its either the 40amp fuse is not making a good connection, OR some other device downstream from the relay is pulling the voltage down big time.
Last edited by HAILERS; 08-02-02 at 08:36 PM.
08-02-02, 08:54 PM
#40
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There is a jpg of the other half of the schematic that I posted yesterday. The only two things I see on the BY wires circuit other than the LEAD COIL ASSY, is the Trail coil assy and the SOLENOID RESISTOR for the fuel injectors. Its located under the air filter afm assy. Silver and rectangular in size. Shiney aluminium with one large round plug going to it. Now the last half of 87 they don't use this solenoid resistor, so it may/may not be there.
I'd turn the key on with everything connected up. Go to the lead coil assy and unplug the little white connector. Put the meter on the black/yellow wires socket/pin. Then while watching the meter, I'd unplug the trail coil assy's small plug. If the meter goes from 1.3volts to around 12v, then thats what is pulling the voltage down. If the voltage does not rise when you do that, then pull the plug off the Solenoid resistor and watch the meter. If the voltage rises, then there is the source of the problem.
If you have the LEAD, TRAIL AND SOLENOID RESISTOR all disconnected and only get 1.3 volts, then the problem must lie with the 40amp fuse or wiring b/t it and the relay.
Jpg:
I'd turn the key on with everything connected up. Go to the lead coil assy and unplug the little white connector. Put the meter on the black/yellow wires socket/pin. Then while watching the meter, I'd unplug the trail coil assy's small plug. If the meter goes from 1.3volts to around 12v, then thats what is pulling the voltage down. If the voltage does not rise when you do that, then pull the plug off the Solenoid resistor and watch the meter. If the voltage rises, then there is the source of the problem.
If you have the LEAD, TRAIL AND SOLENOID RESISTOR all disconnected and only get 1.3 volts, then the problem must lie with the 40amp fuse or wiring b/t it and the relay.
Jpg:
08-03-02, 09:55 AM
#43
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I unplugged the lead coils and got 12v on all B/Y leads! I plug it back in, crank it up and voltage drops to ~1.3v. Unplug the lead and I get 12v again. Same with the trailing. When the voltage drops I can see that it also drops TO the main relay on the B/G lead. I then checked the voltage at the 40amp fuse and got full voltage. Therefore I'm looking at a malfunction between the 40amp fuse and the Main Relay. I think.
B
B
08-03-02, 10:12 AM
#44
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OK. I traced the B/G lead back to the 40amp fuse and found that it had been spliced with what looks like a kill switch—don't quote me on that. I removed the spliced in circuit and reconnected the B/G wires, recharged the battery, reconnected the coils, cranked it up and…
08-03-02, 04:22 PM
#49
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OMG! I had the car idling and running great—until I installed the SAFC again. Now it won't start again. You can imagine the frustration level here. The wife is mad at me for being in the garage, the kid doesn't recognize me and the dog just pissed on the tire! Not kidding.
Looks like whole new set of problems, as this time I am getting spark and fuel just won't turn over. I've removed the 40amp just to make sure she's not flooded (even with the Anti-Flood Module I installed.) I'm giving up for today, I can't stand looking at the thing now.
B
Looks like whole new set of problems, as this time I am getting spark and fuel just won't turn over. I've removed the 40amp just to make sure she's not flooded (even with the Anti-Flood Module I installed.) I'm giving up for today, I can't stand looking at the thing now.
B
08-03-02, 08:44 PM
#50
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Thread Starter
I'm thinking there's yet another short in the system. I've noticed when trying to crank it that the system seems to cut out briefly, as if shorting, and the relays will click. So, we have spark, fuel and not sure about air. I'll have to put the dmm to the ECU tomorrow and check for proper voltage. I'm not sure which systems to start with. I'm thinking AFM, alternator…hmmm, I just realized, I checked for voltage at the coils but I didn't actually check for spark. I'll do that tomorrow also.