Flying Monkey

My TI has been down for a month & I'm stumped. I blew the 80A, replaced it & now I get no power to anything past the ignition switch. I've tested the switch (and a spare) for continuity per the FSM. Both are fine. When I turn the key to ACC/ON/START I get nothing. No relay clicks, no radio, nothing. ALL fuses have been checked with a meter & all are good. Flashers, headlights, retractor motors, etc not fed power through the ignition switch work. I have 12v at the spade connector near the fuse box underhood. I have 12v at the black wire feeding the switch from harness under dash. I'm getting volatge to the switch.

Here's where I get confused...I only have voltage when the key is OFF. If I move the switch to any other position, I lose my 12v from the harness feed. I'm sampling this voltage from the harness under the dash that the switch plugs into. If the switch is off, I have 12v at terminal "B". Turn key & I lose voltage. Leave key turned & unplug the ignition switch connector that has the "B" & "IG1" terminals (label names on 15-9 of FSM) & my 12v returns. How does turning a switch that should only be redirecting current cause me to lose the 12v fed to the switch? What, if anything, is between the connecetor underhood & the harness where the switch plugs in?

Flying Monkey

Is there a relay involved here that I'm missing maybe? My father can repair a color TV with a schematic...it's what he does. Why's a car electrical system giving us fits with a FSM? We've gotta be missing something. Gonna start comparing voltages against a working FC.

HAILERS

There's nothing b/t the single spade connector and the ignition switch plug.

Well, almost nothing . There is a splice in that wire. IT goes to the large terminal on the alternator. The output terminal.

So, do this: put your meter positive lead on the large alternator terminal and the negative lead on a confirmed good gnd. It should read battery voltage. Now turn the key to ON. What does the meter read now??????? It should be a clue. Maybe even remove that output wire from the alternator and turn the key to ON. IF now things work past the ignition key, maybe the alt is causing the voltage drop???

A lot of the time when trouble shooting you'll see a good reading on the given wire. BUT when you put a LOAD on the circuit, the reading goes to ruin. Think about that. What you could have is a poor connection in that black wire circuit b/t the ignition switch plug and that plug in the engine bay called X-23 on a series four. OR a bad connection b/t the X-23 and the 80 amp fuse.

Somewhere along the line I might have gotten pissed enough to buy a roll of 18-22 gauge wire and put a spade on one end and connect it to the connector near the engine fuse box and then run the other end into the cabin, even thru the window since it's temporary, and connect it to the ignition switch somehow. At where the present black wire goes. Have not figured exactly how I'd do that. Mabe a wire tap from RS since it's just a temporary thing. I'd like to thnk it'd never come to that though.

BASTARD

iTrader: (4)

First thing i would do is throw away your test light and get one of these...... it's a circuit power probe, much better then a test light and will help you quickly locate your fault. They are not cheap, costing anywhere from 50-60 bucks up to about 80.00... but if you do a lot of electrical work then your life will change for the better with this.


Second thing i would do is step back and think about anything that has been fixed or changed since this happened??? a new radio? car alarm? turbo timer? AFC? EBC? fog/driving lights?...etc

a lot of these types of components use interrupt circuitry or splice off OE wires and if not done with care can really f*ck you and is why I always say NO to this type of stuff...

Next... is your **** ghetto, you know... an overly excessive use of bailing wire zip ties and duck tape... if this is the case then you may want to make sure that none of this has worn thru any wiring and shorted any circuits (which you should be able to find with the ciruit power probe)

anyhow the only way to find a short is to trace each affected circuit from the origin to the end

best of luck

Flying Monkey

Oddly enough, we checked the output terminal last night since it was the only thing in the circuit we could see on the FSM. It stays at 12v regardless of key position. The X-23 connector is pretty nasty looking. Actually, Dad was bitching at me to pull it part & check it out last night. but since everything locally was closed, I didn't wanna possibly break it & have that cause work stoppage. I'm confused by the loss of feed to the switch. I undesrtand if resistance goes up, voltage drops, current decreases, etc. Something somewhere had a path with low enough resistance to pop the 80A. It's like I blew a ground, but that doesn't make sense. I was just trying to make sure there wasn't a relay along the way that could fail & drop my feed to the switch. On the way to get some wire, spades & such. Gonna go through & check voltages against a running FC.

Flying Monkey

Actually, I'm using a DMM. Well, Dad's DMM. Dad's an electronics tech & I did a few years as an installer so we got test equipment covered. Nothing has been installed in the vehicle in the past few years. No equipment changes, etc. I replaced the oil coller lines, but only because I noticed oil everywhere when I popped the hood to change the 80A. No electronics were touched during this replacement, except disconnecting battery. As far as ghetto, all electrical is either soldered/shrink wrapped or crimped with good 3M connectors (see note above about Dad, lol). All added guages, etc even have their own fuses, so while it might not be pretty, I hope it ain't ghetto . Now, if the switch was actually shorting to ground, wouldn't something get hot, blow a fuse, etc. Ah, the fun that is the "simple" world of electronics.

HAILERS

IF the X-23 is nasty looking it would not hurt a thing to cut off both mating parts and either install a single butt connector or install a male spade on one wire and a female on the other.

Problem with that is you need a really GOOD pair of crimping tools to do that. Autozone had a ratcheting crimper I bought a couple of years ago that works pretty darn good. I think it was only fifteen to twenty bucks, which was surpisingly cheap for the ratcheting crimper I bought.

IF you checked the voltage at the alternators large output connector with the key to ON, and did not see the voltage drop your seeing at the ignition switch connector, then that is indeed odd because there are NO relays, plugs inbetween X-23 and the ignition switch plug.

The ignition switch plug you should be looking at is the two socket one. One pure black wire and the other wire black with a white stripe.

Flying Monkey

The voltage I'm talking about is on Terminal "B" in the pic. Measured from the backside of the connector on harness side. That's the only way I could unplug switch & still read it. It's a solid black wire on the harness side from what I remember. Then again, I'm pretty sure it was the only wire on the switch setup with voltage. I'm going from memory here...I'll verify absolutely in about 25 min. Gonna stop at AZ to see about the crimpers.

HAILERS

Hey. One other thing. You say the headlights/retractors work, which makes good sense. The question I have is, when you turn the key to ON, do the headlights/retractors still work as before you turned the key to ON.

I"ve guessing they do. But it's worth asking about. IF they DON'T work after the key is to ON, then it's a battery cable/battery/whatever and not the ignition key.

BASTARD

iTrader: (4)

lol... just had to ask, 50% of the people here dont know cr@p and think a little black tape is all that is needed.. and would use bailing wire to hang there exhaust from their fuel line


Try pulling all the fuses that the IGN switch feeds.. then add one at a time back testing each circuit

HAILERS

Not a bad idea. It seems though, that if the voltage is dropping as bad as it seems, that the fuses would blow downstream of the ignition switch. And he says he's checked his fuses out and they are ok.

Black tape??????? You mean you aren't supposed to just dab black RTV on the connection to protect it? Hmmmmm.

Flying Monkey

Into the "WTF, who'd of thunk it" category with this one!

Short version: X-23 connector is a POS.

Longer version: Grabbed $25 racheting crimper from AZ. Nice item, BTW. I have one at home for crimping coax when I make cables for home theater stuff. Probably could have ordered another set of dies, but I wanted this done today. Grabbed 75' roll of 10ga and assload of connectors from AZ. Dropped $60 at AZ total. Damn Wal-mart only had 10-12ga spades as part of $7 "variety pack" setup. Cut X-23 out & had a hell of a time srtipping the MELTED insulation from ends. That explains the dropping 12v feed. Rechecked the resistance on the switch, had some resistance that looked odd to Dad. Checked against the 86 Base I've been driving while the TII's been down. Same thing on it. Realized we were probably spending time chasing a demon problem that didn't matter (we'd spent 1.5 hours checking **** by that time). Plugged NEW X-23 in, connected battery, crossed fingers & fired her up. All is good. Turned on all accessories to include defroster & A/C with fan on high. No fuses blowing, all seems good.

Have no idea what caused it to blow & that still bugs me. It blew the 80A on the freeway at speed when I turned on the A/C. The possible source of the oil leak I had was the A/C belt rubbing a bit on the cooler line. Dad theorized that when I turned the A/C, the compressor & belt "snagged" momentarily on an exposed braid of the SS line causing the fuse to blow. I'm not buying this. Don't even know if this is possible. The connection to the clutch is relatively small & there's gotta be a fuse in line there somewhere. Also, the belt would have been in contact with the line the entire time the motor was running. Nevermind the fact that if his theory is even possible, it would add to the continuous "I told you to check the connector, son" I've heard for the past 30 minutes.

And yes, I pulled every single fuse from both fuse blocks (one at a time fo course) & checked with a meter. What still confuses me is from the ignition switch to battery negative, I had continuity on all points but the 12v feed. I'm thinking that as soon as I turn the key, I'm gonna short the 12v to ground. Spent a while pondering & checking before just finally plugging everything back in. Mental note to self...continuity beep from DMM doesn't equal dead short.

So, I find myself with a really nice crimper I've used for 2 connections, a 75' roll of 10ga, an assload of 10-12ga crimp connectors & a spare ignition switch. $90 or so spent on $0.75 worth of parts . Then again, I've got the 7 back which is all that really matters. I'm off to button everything up & clean up the tools. I know this turned out long, but now it should come up the next time some poor sap has to sort through the 20 pages of search results for "ingintion switch" or "80A". Thanks again for helping me step through this silliness folks.

Flying Monkey

OK, the car now runs but I have some weird **** going on. I now have no functioning exterior lighting except the headlights. The Door Ajar light in the warning cluster flashes in time with what should be my blinkers. The Door light stays on with the brake pedal pushed, but the brake lights don't function. The clock is very dim, like when the lights are switched on, but turns off & resets to 1:00 when the brakes are hit. I've lost my interior lighting to the doors/dome light and possibly the dash (too pissed to remember ATM). Also, the radio doesn't work. Car actually runs fine now, just a bunch of weirdness from the electrical system. Any ideas? I got it home to my garage & there it will sit since I can't drive it at night, sigh.

Hopefully, you guys will see this & I won't have to start another thread to whine & beg for help, lol.

HAILERS

As I started reading your second to last post, I couldn't help but thing of what the *old man* had been telling you about that ratty looking connection at X-23. Hee, hee. humor

I'm misunderstanding what you talk about when referring to the ignition switch negative??????????? But I'm trying to watch tv and understand what you said. Itll come to me later I'm sure.

It sounds like you do have some short somewhere else that might have caused your original problem with the melted X-23. Almost like something is screwed in the lighting switch or lights harness at or just after the switch.

Crimpers should help out in the future.

Do your Interior Spot Lights work? At all? Intermittently? Double check that ROOM fuse. Top row, third fuse from your left. Make sure it's seated good. Unlikely but possible.

HAILERS

Your present problems SEEM all related to the light switch in the cluster and/but also likely to be related to the HARNESS that attaches to that cluster. It isn't a very long harness. It seems to be a seventeen pin harness at the end on the other side from the light cluster.

It's the kind of thing where I'd pull that connector apart (the end not connected to the lght cluster). Then I'd jumper a wire b/t the White/Green wire and the Red/Green wire on the half of the connector that does not connect to the light cluster harness. Hope that makes sense.

When you do, the tail lights , glove box lights, liscense lights should work. If so, then go look at the short Light Cluster Harness plugs and see if there is a burnt looking contact inside one of the plugs.

Also do a ICEMARK and Light Cluster search. He's written a number of times on how that harness and or cluster light switch goes bad.

Flying Monkey

You talking about that part? If so, I meant with probe of the DMM on Batt Neg, I had a continuity beep on all wires from ignition switch except the 12v feed wire. That made me worry about 12v--->ground when I turned key to any position other than off.

As for the weirdness. I'm just baffled ATM. I'll peruse the FSM some at work tomorrow & see if I can find anything. It's like my exterior lights are being sent to the Door Ajar light on the warning cluster....Any chance the connectors on the rest of the harness did a melt job along with the X-23? Only other thing I can think of is that I messed up the connectors on the main box underhood. I had to replace it as the one that was in when the 80A blew was so brittle it fell apart when I unbolted the 80A. Would the car even run if I had these swapped top to bottom (best description I can come up with). I know when I pull my headlight fuse, they go out, so I assume that part is set up right. Who knows.

Flying Monkey

Just to make sure since my head hurts from many hours of WoW...You're talking about the headlight/turn signal switch assembly here, right. Just realized I missed your last post. Had the browser open to this post & didn't refresh before I posted my last comment.

HAILERS

Yeah. The headlight rotary switch on the left AND the harness that attaches to it. That harness is only a foot or so long and is a bad actor on some cars. PUll the plug off the switch and see if any terminals are burnt looking. If not, then find the other end of that short harness and look at the terminals on that end.

HAILERS

Go to this site and down the page is the Headlight Harness..,.. http://www.mazdatrix.com/86-92Electrical.htm

I'm NOT saying that IS the problem, but if you'll just go to the Large connector on that harness and jumper the wire colors I mentioned, the side lights and tail lights should come on. That should give you a clue of where to look for the problem.

Well, actually you don't jumper the wires at the large connector. You jumper the wires in the plug IT attaches to. Common sense thing.

Flying Monkey

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll probably not have a chance to work on it again until this weekend. Somehow, no matter how well I plan, other stuff takes over during the week. If I get anywhere this week, I'll be sure to update this thread. Hopefully it will be to report more working electrical.

rrw

iTrader: (2)

what is the four prong connector from the ignition switch? what are the wires? i know that 2 go to the electrical part of the ign. switch and 2 go to the mechanical pert of the ign. switch but what do they do?
im not trying to steal the thread just curious