kaioken

iTrader: (2)

I am working on a 88 TT shell, I swapped a 86 S4 six port N/A motor (auto trans) with a TII trans. I also swapped all of the wiring harnesses, ECU, ect ect.. Also removed all of the emissions. The car turns over but I do not hear the fuel pump when the ign1 is on. We are using the N/A fuel pump, we are able to get the fuel pump to run if we jump a wire from the center pin on the opening circut relay to the fuel pump. We get continuity to the 15 amp engine fuse block to the relay connector, we are also getting continuity back to the fuel pump. I noticed in the FSM that the cold start is also on the same circuit as the opening circuit relay. The cold start circuit has a ground (9) if I remember correctly is on the upper part of the dash.

By not having the cold start circuit plugged in and grounded would that not let my relay function?

HAILERS2

I'll give this a try. I assume all the wiring is now series four non turbo.

The Circuit Opening Relay has two coils that can make the pump run.

One coil has a ground on it all the time. It gets power (Engine fuse) to pull it in WHEN the key is HELD to ON. That wire is tied to the starter solenoids trigger wire. It is also spliced to the cold start and the ECU. The cold start is a nothing and is to be ignored. The part where it goes to the ECU not be ignored BECAUSE that wire gives the ECU a heads up that the engine is being started so it can use the internal ECU fuel start map for ...starting the engine til the engine gets over 500 rpm. Pin 3B if memory serves. See FSM to be sure.

The second coil has power from the ENGINE fuse anytime the key is to On or better. But that coil won't pull in unless the micro switch in the AFM puts a gnd on it OR the yellow two socket fuel pump check connector is jumpered. By the way, THAT ground is spliced into the ECU ground wires on top of the engines rear rotor housing. FYI.

I believe the wire colors on the PLUG in the upper right hand side of the attached jpg is a little goofed up. The L/R should be just L I think.

The above is for a complete stock non turo car. The Turbo car is different in that there is more wiring to a fuelpump/resistor relay in front of the afm assy. When you said ALL wiring was changed I assumed ALL wiring is now non turbo. IF you meant just the harness on the engine then things are different than what I tried to explain above.

HAILERS2

I think what I'd do, is pull the plug off the circuit opening relay. Then pull the trigger wire off the starter solenoid. Put a meter on the B/W wire and make sure it gets pwr when the key is HELD to START. Then make sure the BLACK wire is a good ground by putting the meter on ohms and seeing if it reads???? 1-3 ohms or near that.

kaioken

iTrader: (2)

You are the wiring guru. And yes all of the wiring in this chassis has been changed to the non turbo. I won't be able to work on the car until tomorrow. But I will let you know.

Thank, Bill

kaioken

iTrader: (2)

I forgot to mention that when I did the auto to 5 speed conversion, I ran a wire from the IGNITION SWITCH side of the black/red wire to the starter solenoid.

HAILERS2

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .........

That explains why HOLDING the key to Start does not pull the Circuit Opening Relay in. The wires b/t the starter trigger wire and the circuit opening relay don't exist.

Five speed to auto............seems we've been here before lately. I'll try to find that thread later to see what we did on that one. Seems there was on the auto car, a four wire/socket plug that fed the starter and the reverse switch. And the guy had to splice a wire to his New trigger wire on the stater solenoid and put the other end of this new trigger wire to one of the wires in that four wire/socket plug that exists on auto cars.

EDIT: There is a four wire/socket plug down below the brake booster area. It has wires with the colors shown in the jpg attached. You might try to find this plug. Then take the starter trigger wire you installed and jumper it to the B/R colored wire in the plug in the attachment. With key ON and circuit opening relay installed, the fuel pump should run.

This car does not have ABS does it? IF so, then the plug would be round and have six wires sockets as shown in the jpg attached. Not the four wire square plug I pointed to in the jpg.

The second jpg TRIES to show how that B/R wire also feeds the ECU pin 3B and the Circuit Opening Relay. This 88 wiring manual is inferior to the 87 one. The 87 one shows more on just one page of the wiring diagrams without flipping pages to other wiring diagrams.

HAILERS2

d

kaioken

iTrader: (2)

It runs! You sir Hailers, is the man. What is your paypal? So I can buy you a beer.


-Bill

KamRx7

Hi
I've got a problem that is close to this one. I have a 88 N/A that is having starting problems. The fuel pump is not running during cranking. Once the cranking is stopped the fuel pump starts and I get pressure and it starts fine.

So I guess test the input to the ECU to see if it toggles?

HAILERS2

The ECU has nothing at all to do with whether the 1986 non turbo fuel pump works or not. If the key is HELD to Start, the Circuit Opening Relay should pull in and feed the pump as long as the key is HELD to Start.

If you hold the key to Start and the engine actually starts running, then a small switch inside the afm will keep the Circuit Opening Relay pulled in to feed the pump, even after you let key go from Start to just ON.

If the engine did not start, and you let the key return to just ON from Start, then the fuel pump should not run. I can't figure out why you pump starts to run once the key is let go from Start to just ON. Might be the small switch inside the afm is the item causing the pump to run. Like the vane in the afm moves aft just enough for that switch to *make* and that is what causes the pump to run even though the key has returned to just ON from Start.

Your car is acting *** backwards from normal. The Circuit Opening Relay is there or exists, so that if you have a crash with the car the fuel pump will stop pumping fuel into the engine bay keeping the fire going caused by the crash. The way yours is working will mean that if you have a crash the fuel pump will keep on a pumping even thought the engine isn't running anymore.

In other words I'm clueless why your pump is working *** backwards. It'd be interesting if you pulled the elect plug off your afm.........then put the key to Start and cranked the engine..........then let the key go back to just ON. If the pump is not running at that time, then it seems your problem lies with the fuel switch inside the afm. But if the pump still runs like you say it has been doing with the key returned to just ON, then the problem lies with??? circuit opening relay somehow. Got me.

Again, on a series four non turbo car the ECU has zip to do with the pump running/not running. The ECU still gets a signal from the Start circuit like the other cars do, but that is only to give the ECU a heads up that the engine is being started and to use the internal fuel map of the ECU for starting purposes (instead of the afm for start fuel).

Some of the above made sense to me.

KamRx7

Hi
Thanks for the quick response. I pulled the afm connector off. Same as before for starting. But after about 3 to 4 seconds the fuel pressure dropped off and the car stopped. I'm thinking maybe during cranking the voltage to the fuel pump is going to low and when I stop cranking it goes up to the 12 volts.

HAILERS2

Well with the afm connector off the fuel pump should have stopped when the key was returned to ON from Start. That's normal and as it should be.

The fuel pump should keep running if the engine is running (if the elect plug is on the AFM). The engine running causes the vane in the afm to pull aft. The vane going aft *makes* the fuel switch inside the afm which in turn pulls the circuit opening relay in and keeps the pump running.

IF you hit a tree and the engine stops running, the afm's vane moves fwd and the fuel switch inside it *makes* no more but goes open and kills the fuel pump. A safety item so you don't burn to death if in an accident.

I think the fuel pump on your car has been rewired....maybe. What I understood you to say, is that if you hold the key to START and crank the engine, the fuel pump does not work. But if you let the key go back to ON, THEN the fuel pump works. That's not normal and I've no idea why that would happen unless someone rewired the circuti or??????

If you pulled the elect plug offf the afm and the fuel pump ran with the key returned to ON (not Start), I've no idea why.

smg944

iTrader: (34)

i am having this same issue on my t2 swapped s4 convertable. before i changed to a turbo 2 ecu harness the fuel pump worked fine. i have the s4 t2, harness, ecu, and engine setup. also if i jump the yellow connector it still does not turn the pump on. hailers2 any idea on what i am overlooking?

KamRx7

I put a volt meter on the fuel pump wire at the pump. During cranking no juice. Stopped trying to crank ignition left on I get 12 volts, but not for long.

So correct me if i'm wrong.
1. Ignition on, nothing should happen.
2. Crank engine and the starter should send power to the Circuit opening relay. Turning on the fuel pump.
3. Stop cranking ,ignition on, the AFM circuit should keep the pump and car running.

So if maybe the AFM during cranking is making the relay pick up for a little bit thats where the pump is turning on? This is giving me enough pressure to acually start the car and get it going.

I think I'll put a volt meter on the starter power to the circuit opening relay and have a look.

Dale

HAILERS2

[QUOTE=KamRx7;9341132]I put a volt meter on the fuel pump wire at the pump. During cranking no juice. Stopped trying to crank ignition left on I get 12 volts, but not for long.

So correct me if i'm wrong.
1. Ignition on, nothing should happen.
2. Crank engine and the starter should send power to the Circuit opening relay. Turning on the fuel pump.
3. Stop cranking ,ignition on, the AFM circuit should keep the pump and car running.

So if maybe the AFM during cranking is making the relay pick up for a little bit thats where the pump is turning on? This is giving me enough pressure to acually start the car and get it going.

I think I'll put a volt meter on the starter power to the circuit opening relay and have a look.
************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** ***********************************************

Key ON, engine OFF. Everything connected up normal. Now go to the afm and push the vane in the afm aft at least a 1/4". Pump should run. Does it?

Or pull the Circuit Opening Relay and set the relay to the side. Meter lead in the upper left corner of the relay base (see jpg). Now key to Start. You should see 9-12vdc when the key is HELD to START...


And, yes, I think what is happening during your starting, is that the vane in the afm is being pulled aft by the suction of the engine just enough to make the fuel switch in the afm and that is why the pump works for a short time.

HAILERS2

************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** ***********************************************


What I understand is, that you've a non turbo car that you put a Turbo engine in. You used the TURBO EM harness on the engine and connected it to a turbo ECU and in case you didn't know, also connected that Turbo EM harenss to the non turbo FRONT harness (remember two ORANGE in color elect plugs inside the passengers foot well? Up and to the far right of the foot well?

Now the first thing I'd look for is to see if the ENGINE fuse in the interior is blown or not. I bet it is. ENGINE fuse powers the fuel pump via the Circuti Opening Relay and the Main Relay.

The wires in the two ORNAGE plugs of the Turbo EM harness do not all match the other half of those plugs that are a part of the non turbo FRONT harness. Some wires need attending to IF you find the ENGINE fuse blown.

About the fuel pump check connetor. That two wire yellow connector near the boost sensor/afm area. What you have there in that plug is two wires. ONE wire is black and goes to the ECU ground on top of the engnine rear rotor housing on a two wire ring terminal. IF that terminal isn't bolted down the yellow connector won't work. .....The second wire in that yellow connector is brown and goes to the Circuit Opening RElay via one of the ORANGE colored plugs mentioned above. I think that brown wire is in the same plug as the non turbo cars so that shouldn't be the problem.

Try this if the ENGINE fuse is good. Go to the yellow connector and find the BROWN wire in that two wire plug. Now bare a piece of spare wire at both ends. PUt one end where the BROWN wire is and the other end to the L shaped bracket the boost sensor mounts on (or any know gnd point you know of). Key ON. Pump should run if the ENGINE FUSE is good. Make sense? IGnore the other wire in the yellow connector when you do this. Did it make the pump work?

HAILERS2

SMUG944
See the two jpg attached. See how the RED colored half of the plugs is called the FRONT side of the plug?

See how the black/white half of the mating plug is called the EM?????????? Yes.

You put a EM harness on the engine meant for a Turbo car. It is not wired the same as a non turbo EM harness. See all the ( ) around wire colors???? Yes. Those wires are PECULIAR to Turbo cars. They have different functions than the wires on a non turbo car.

All that BS said, there are but two or three wires that need immediate attention. See the plug called X-15??? Yes. See the wires (BrR) and ( BrB) in the EM half of the plug ?? The ( BrR) just above the (BrB)? Say yes. Well either depin those wires from the EM half of the plug or cut them at least a inch and a half back from the EM half of the plug. Those two wires on a turo car are for the boost sensor. ON a non turbo car they are the two wires going to the alternators small plug. ONe of those comes from the ENGINE fuse in the interior, the BW one. It should never mate with a boost sensor wire...ever.

Also the water temp wires are in opposite Orange colored plugs for Turbo vs non turbo cars. Plus a few other wires. But the BrR and BrB wires are the important ones Or most important ones.

smg944

iTrader: (34)

hailers , thanks for the info. i also switched over to the n/a harness and still no pump. the circuit open relay seems to be working ok. the engine fuse is not blown i checked that first. i will check the yellow connector to make sure it is getting grounded to the engine. because when i jump it nothing happens at all.

HAILERS2

Try shoving the afm's vane aft at least a quarter inch with the key to ON. Pump should run. The fuel switch inside the afm uses the same ground wire as the two socket yellow connector does. IF that gnd does not exist, then once the engine starts, the engine won't stay running because there is no gnd to the Circuit Opening Relay to keep that relay pulled in.

I attached a jpg of the yellow two socket connetor and you can see how it's tied to the fuel switch inside the afm and how it sends a gnd signal to the coil of the circuit opening relay when the switch in the afm is *made*.

If the pump did not run while shoving the vane aft with key ON, then put one end of a wire to some ground and it's other end into the socket on the yellow connector that has the BLACK wire. Now push the vane aft again with the key ON. Pump should run for sure now.

Whether you use a Turbo EM hareness or a non turbo EM hareness, both use the same BROWN wire in the same ORANGE plug. The BR wire leads to the second coil in the Circuit Opening Relay and that should pull that relay in and feed the pump. BROWN (BR) only has a gnd on it if the afm vane is pulled aft a bit or if the yellow two socket connector has a jumper b/t the BR wire and the B wire in the yellow plugs sockets.

smg944

iTrader: (34)

thanks again for the info hailers. i put on an extra ground wire to the black wire on the yellow connector and am still getting no fuel pump. i pushed in on the afm and got nothing. what is strange is that it worked fine before. i am still using the non turbo harness.

smg944

iTrader: (34)

i got the fuel pump running. it seems that the brown wire on the orange connector had popped out some. so now i have the fuel running through but the injectors wont spray. lol it is always something.

smg944

iTrader: (34)

also i have voltage to the black/yellow wire in the x11 orange connector. but at the ecu i have no power at the light green wires on the ecu connector. what is located between them?

HAILERS2

I thought this was a series four car. You mention X-11 and that is a term used on series FIVE wiring/car. Series FOUR use the term FEM-02 or on earlier cars X-16.

Matters not whether X-11 or FEM-02 is used, the black/yellow leaves that plug on two B/Y wires that get spliced together just after leaving the plug, then continue on as one B/Y wire to the fuel injectors themselves. Nothing inbetween that plug and the small two wire plug on the fuel injectors.

Power leaves the injectors and goes to the light green/black.......light green/red.........light green.......light green/white wires at the ECU plug.

IF this had been a 1986 or early half of 1987 EM harness, there would be a item called a solenoid resistor package b/t the FEM-02 and fuel injectors. The Solenoid REsistor is a package of four 6ohm resistors. Has/had a fairly large ROUND elect plug on it and that plug was located more or less beneath the air filter/afm area.

You do have a series four car????? engine?

I attached the jpgs of the series five and series four wiring for the fuel injectors but DID NOT attach the jpg of the early series four that uses the solenoid resistor package.

HAILERS2

1986 and early 1987 cars wiring for the fuel injectors looks like the jpg attached.

smg944

iTrader: (34)

hailers you are the wiz with wiring. yes it has that resistor connector on the harness. but no resistor pack. i have an s4 turbo 2 engine with an s4 car. and apparently an s4 86.5 harness. i have a resistor pack from a turbo 2 i also have. so i will test that in a bit and post back.

so now a quick question, will i need to change the injectors over? these are 88 turbo 2 injetors which are low imp.

thanks again hailers you are the man.