ToddV

This is a pretty long post and I'm going into a lot of detail, but I'm trying to give you guys a good idea of where I'm starting out and where I want to go.

I've always thought that the FC was an interesting vehicle. I like it a lot. But it's not what I would characterize as my 'dream car'. I was raised amidst classic Mopar and If I could afford it, I would be sporting a 70 Challenger T/A or a 69 Coronet convertible. Sadly, right now, these are too pricey for me to justify the expense for a toy. My wife loves the old chrome bumper MGBs. We've had one rusting in the garage for 5 years now, waiting to be restored, but 'the wonders of British engineering' makes me wonder if 'British engineer' isn't an oxymoron. We had an RX-8 but sold it when our daughter mistook the back of the seat for a drum kit and my wife mistook my DD for a balistic missle and killed a neighbor's mailbox and my rear suspension. We swapped the 8 for two 3s (hmm new math) and they are nice little DDs, but I need something with RWD and my old 4runner is a gutless wonder if you ask it to move faster than 30mph. My brother has an S2000 and I would really like to have something that can outrun him. My solution . . . an FC vert. Stock, it handles better than an MGB ever will and it should take too much effort to get it to outrun my brother's Honda and if I really wanted to sink some money into it, it might outrun my father's moderately built 72 Challenger Rallye 340 (about 450 ftlbs at the wheels from 2500 to 6000 RPMs pushing around 2 tons of detroit iron . . . mmm)

I've just purchased a bone stock 88 vert. It's black with gray interior and in very good shape overall. The CD player doesn't work, the power antenna is outright missing, the passenger side headlamp assembly sticks, the shifter is a sloppy mess, the leather seats are worn out and the carpet has seen some rain. It has 5 shopping cart dings ( less than 1/2 hour damage on each). It came with some profoundly ugly "17 chrome 'rims' and worn out tires. Aside from these minor issues, it's in great condition and drives well. I was unable to find factory correct wheels that were both in good condition and reasonably priced. I put some "15x6 7 'spoke' aluminum wheels off of a 1999 626 on it wrapped in some new 205/60R-15 BFGoodrich g-Force Sport (the stickiest tires I could find in the stock size). I've got some new black leather seat covers and black carpet ordered. I've also got a headlamp assembly and power antenna coming. I took a chance on a $200 chinese double din DVD/nav/etc head unit to replace the stock unit (driving music is important to my wife) and a $20 short throw miata shifter (it included the bearings - I can live without the return to center spring for now). Will see how those work out. I'm planning on going through it and giving it a tune up next weekend and installing all of the new stuff. Aside from the stereo, that should put it back to a fully functional stock condition.
My plan is to then enjoy it as is through the fall of next year and by then I'll be ready to do something to get it to perform.

So. . . why am I bothering you guys with mundane drivel???

I need your help (yes you) to decide how to build this thing up to get it to perform well enough to appease my lead foot and yet keep it from draining my wallet (as the wife and kids like niceties like food, clothes, and broadband interweb). I'm looking for a 'best bang for my buck' plan to get my vert to a 'fun to drive' place, I don't need stupid high numbers as I don't need to brag about what's under the hood. I would like to be able to spank the occasional Mustang; but spanking 'Vettes and Ferraris would be a bonus, not a requirement. Reliability is a definite requirement, I stay busy and don't have time to spend all of my weekends with my wrenches and sockets scattered over the floor of the garage.

Should I throw a chrome intake and K&N filter & some lambo doors on it and call it a day? (30+ extra hp from the chrome under the hood )
Should I try to find a TII on craigslist and swap out the drivetrain?
Should I buy a 13B TII off of eBay and ram it in there?
Should I get a 20B off of eBay and try to shoehorn 3 rotors in there?
Should I get a Cosmo 20B half cut and play Dr. Frankenstein?
Should I run stock turbos?
How about a flux capaciter?
Should I run after-market twins or a single turbo setup?
Should I stick with a TII transmission and diff or upgrade to something more exotic that may require some more elaborate fabrication?
Should I stiffen up the chassis with some tactical welding?
Should I stick with the stock suspension or upgrade to something stiffer?
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could Chuck Norris?
Should I bother with an aftermarket ECU or should I stick with OE?

I can handle a lot of the labor myself and I can get most parts for wholesale prices, but I'm looking at a budget of less than $15K (any more than that and I may as well just get a b-body with a 440 BB (easy to get those to 500+ftlbs) and keep the RX-7 stock for the wife to play with)

I would like to put down at least 250 WHP for as little money as possible. (should be enough to spank my brother's S2000) Beating my father's Challenger off the line would be nice (the math gods say that I would need at least 340 ftlbs at the wheels to keep up with him and a lot of it available fairly low in the powerband) but I suspect that it would probibly be cheaper to buy another Challenger to outrun him, than to build up an FC to do it.

Jimmy2222

iTrader: (3)

With ~$15k I think you should have more than enough room to make a reasonably powered reliable toy.

Personally, I think the best way to stay reliable is to make sure EVERYTHING is covered. You could have a nice set-up that makes 300-330 (maybe more) with minimal fabrication.

Powertrain:
If I were you I think using a 13Bt would be the best bet. If you want to shell out the extra dough for the "exotic-ness" you could do a 20B swap (although it would be a tedious and possibly expensive hole, the easier route would be to go with a T2 swap). If you were to do a T2 swap, you can have a nice toy while retaining fairly stock parts. You can get a BNR or other hybrid turbo (modified stock turbo), supporting fuel mods (720x4, FD fuel pump and re-wire), Rtek 2.1, full exhaust and hell, even a cold air box + intake if you wanted too. Most of your basics covered there, then you get into the extra goodies like water/meth injection (added security against knock), HKS twin power (or other CDI box, HKS unit amplifies both coils). Of course with a set-up like this, the N/A transmission probably won't hold up too long and most JDM engines you buy come with a tranny/ecu/wiring harness/long block anyways (in canada that is).

Cost: $3k max (probably less)


That I think would probably be your safest and cheapest way to lay down 300. You could go a bit higher and get a bigger turbo instead of a hybrid, but when you get into that you'll most likely need a new manifold, more fuel, blah blah blah. It's probably best to stay single as twin turbo's usually act more like heaters in the engine bay.

LunchboxCritter

iTrader: (9)

With 15k go with a 13B-RE swap, rebuilt, street ported, single turbo, koyo, stand alone, etc.

or

Get 2 TII Engine Swaps:
Throw one in for immediate fun, swap the drive train and hood while you're at it.
Take the "spare" engine and have it rebuilt, or do it yourself. There are several videos out detailing how to do it.

Rebuild kits are rather expensive @ $1500.00.

A die grinder, a few select bits, a template or four, and 2-3 videos to watch will go a long way in +hp. Hey while you're in there anyways.

LunchboxCritter

iTrader: (9)

You need to "hit the books" and start reading until you're tired of reading, and then read some more.

Do not listen to everyone you run across that starts spouting off "facts" about rotary engines. I had a mechanic tell me that I could get 500 hp with bolt-ons attached to an NA engine. A maintence man told me that he used to have a 1st gen. said he took the engine apart and the apex seals are made out of rubber.

Decide what you want to use the car for (drifting, auto x, 1/4 mile, street, mountain passes, etc.)

With $15,000 budget there are quite a few things that you can do.

Is your $15,000 budget for the whole car or just for the HP upgrades?

ToddV

Thanks for your input. It's greatly appreciated. I would say 15K for the whole car is the absolute upper limit. At that point, it doesn't make sense to me. Here's what I have in the car so far:
88 vert $2500
new tires $350
stock'ish' wheels $50
new seat leather $300
new carpet $150
headlamp assembly $50
power antenna $75
new stereo head unit $200
short throw shifter $20
new thermostat & gasket & rad cap $50
(better safe than sorry - the wife has cooked engines rather than pull over in the past)
I figure another $100 for filters, plugs and wires for a tune-up
& $100 to have the leather put on the seats with new seat foam (I can do the rest easily, but I would do a hack job on the upholstery)
so that leaves me at $3945 for a clean, running, driving and (aside from the stereo head unit) stock vert.
The odometer is showing 102K, which is pretty low for an 88 and the way the engine runs (perfectly), I would guess that it was replaced or rebuilt relatively recently as I just don't see the original, stock, 22 year old seals holding up all this time. Stock is fine, but these cars have so much more potential.

So lets say that at $11000 in additional work, I'm scrapping the project before it gets off the ground and putting that money into something that I can throw a big block V8 in and call it a day.
Ideally, I would like to have less than $10000 in the car when it's complete as I've not seen an FC actually sell for more than that in recent years and I would rather stay ahead financially, if I can help it. (but spending a little bit more is not out of the question if it makes it awesome)

So, forget about the $15K. What can I do for less than $6K and is there something that I can do for $11K or less that will be such a significant improvement that it's worth taking a loss on? I'm looking at the total package, engine drivetrain & suspension. I might even add a body kit (the wife says that while nice enough, the FC does look dated and I can't disagree) something like this might be interesting and dropping the pop ups might actually cut down on the weight a bit http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/87-91...Q5fAccessories

I'm new to posting on the board, but I've been lurking off and on for years. About seven or eight years ago I tore down a couple of FCs and parted them out and restored and sold a TII (I was running a salvage yard at the time), so I'm not new to the FC, but I am new to modifying them. I'm not looking for big numbers or bragging rights, I'm looking to make the car as fun as possible for as little as possible; and reliability is a concern as I want to put it together and then spend most of my time with the car there-after in the driver's seat as opposed to bent over a fender or underneath the car.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Figure $2k for the suspension and brakes.
Could go a lot higher if you want zoot coilovers but for a street car I think they're overkill.

Then drop a V-8 in it.
Instant easy 300rwhp in a nice handling, good looking chassis.
More torque and better fuel efficiency than the rotary.
The FC has a giant engine bay, so ease of access is probably better than the donor car.

Win/win.

ToddV

I could drop Chrysler 340 LA in there (my father has a shortblock in a corner waiting for a project) , but then I would have to seriously upgrade the whole drivetrain and suspension to support the huge amount of additional torque. Of course, a big part of the appeal of the RX-7 is the rotary engine . . . Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of a good V8 and I'm certainly more familar with working on them than the rotary, but to me an RX-7 without a rotary engine isn't really and RX-7 anymore. I think 5 years from now I'll be able to convince the wife to let me get a b-body and I'll go nuts with a V8 on that platform.

20Bforme

im partial to the 20b swap... but only if its N/a

clokker

iTrader: (2)

You're going to replace the shocks/struts/springs and bush the suspension anyway, so that part is the same regardless of engine choice.
You'll also be swapping in a T2 diff no matter what, so that's the same.
Basically, chassis prep would be identical for either engine path.

All this is moot if you're of the "rotary soul" school of thinking though, so good luck.

ToddV

Let me apply some of my vocational skills to this project. (I'm an I.T. project manager/programmer)

Project goal: To upgrade my 88 vert so that it has excellent handling, braking, acceleration and seat of the pants fun on the street. Reliability is required. There aren't any shops that play with 13Bs around here and I a limited amount of free time. Being able to perform well on the occasional SCCA run would be nice, but a secondary concern. I would like to stick with a rotary engine. a V8 just doesn't feel right for this project.

Project budget: <= $6000 OR $6000 < $11000 for something ridiculous.

Project resources:
Sorted out stock 88 vert.
Me, my garage (being emptied out next weekend) & tools. (modest but mostly sufficient)
Occasional help from my father (120K+ hours of professional experience working on automobiles) and occasional use of his equipment (imagine a $300K shopping spree at Snap-On). His projects are already taking up all of the extra space at his shop, no room to keep mine there and he has his own projects so his time is also at a premium.
Input from you guys

Project timeline:
Now through September of 2011 – settle on a design.
September 2011 – November 2011 order and receive all required components.
December 2011 – January 2012 phase one of implementation: assemble the engine and drive train components to go into the car
One weekend in January 2012 phase two of implementation: disassemble the car as required and reassemble to a rolling chassis (install suspension & wheels as needed)
February 2012 phase three of implementation: install new engine and drive train
March 2012 - April 2012 phase one of testing: shake down and break in as needed
May 2012 phase four of implementation & phase to : (if the engine is rebuilt and a turbo installed, turn on the boost and tune) final tuning and shakedown – tie up any remaining loose ends.
June 2012 – have the road ready for summer.

ToddV

What kind of performance can you get out of an n/a 20B and how much of that is 'streetable'? My understanding is that you can go nuts with bridge porting and pp et cetera to get silly power out of a n/a 20B but you just kill the bottom end of the powerband and you end up with something suited for the track and not so much for the street. If you don't do all of that then you have something that compares to a Renesis, but with an extra 100lbs in front of the axle. How much does a n/a 20B swap into a FC run? I
ve read through David Hays build thread (all 3000+ posts) and I understand that that's the ultra high end of the spectrum, but I suspect that this is likely outside of the scope of my project as my understanding is that a jspec 20b core (a used rotary engine is essentially a core, as you don't know how long it's been sitting or how it was treated while it was running)will run you at least 3K and then add in another 3K for a rebuild and I'm already at 6K and I haven't even touched the suspension or drive train or even figured out how to shoehorn that sucker in there or get it running (all of which I suspect would run better than 5K). If I'm wrong, woo hoo as a 20B swap would qualify as ridiculous and I would be willing to go past 6K for that - if the performance could be had for less than $11K .

clokker

iTrader: (2)

"One weekend" to disassemble/reassemble the chassis/suspension?

I'd recommend you devote more time to the undercarriage...get her up in the air (as high as your equipment allows) and strip everything.
Many of the more mundane maintenance procedures (clean/lube/replace the ebrake cables, for instance) are infinitely simpler on a naked car.
Inspecting/replacing brake/fuel hardlines and softlines is easier as well.
Run taps/dies over all holes/studs.

With any luck, spending more time on the underside now should mean that once tires hit the ground she won't have to go up again for some piddly little chore.
Additionally, once you get to the "startup stage" and run into problems- almost inevitable- you won't have to wonder if say, the fuel system is the cause...you'll know you're good all the way up to the fuel filter at least.

I've been involved in a car project for the last year and a half, we were just discussing how much easier/faster/cheaper the whole thing would have been had we just stripped her in the beginning and started from scratch.
Granted, our car was a total POS and had been horribly hacked up- your car is hopefully not as dire, but I'd still recommend the "scorched earth" approach and just do it once.

ToddV

I'm with you there. I've been there on past projects. Luckily, I'm starting with an extremely clean car. None-the-less, clearing and reassembling the suspension and undercarrage will occur at this time.

Also, for disassembly, I'll take the car to my father's shop. With his help and equipment, we can pull the drivetrain in 1.5 hours and strip down the suspension and undercarriage in 2.5 hours. (He's stripped complete FCs down to the frame - interior too - in 5 hours flat before without assistance) We'll spend the rest of the weekend rebuilding and reinstalling the suspension and undercarriage - the result should be a rolling chassis ready for the new drive train to be installed.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Clearly, you have air tools.
Which is cheating.

Bamato

iTrader: (6)

Air tools aren't cheating. I couldn't imagine working on cars without them...

ToddV

Hand tools are great for small jobs or fiddling about, but if you have a large project (like restoring a car or swapping the drivetrain) air tools are invaluable.
I don't have them in my garage (yet), but my father's shop is an operational salvage yard, so he's got cars being disassembled 60+ hours a week and he has more air tools than I have hand tools (and more money in his tools than the return on my life insurance) with his stuff and his help, it will be an easy weekend project. Without his help, it will take forever - it's totally worth the tow fee back to my garage from his shop, the case of beer and additional weekend spent helping him with his 66 Chargers to get his assistance on this.

ToddV

So 13B TII, 13B-REW, 20B . . . what are the pros and cons of each platform as a basis for a swap to an FC?

Jimmy2222

iTrader: (3)

13Bt (T2) Is your run of the mill S4/S5 turbo engine. Two rotor turbo.

13B-REW is the FD engine where as the 13B-RE is the two rotor (also twin turbo) from cosmo's, I hear the RE's have bigger intake runners or something (not sure if REWs also have this aspect) and some/most choose to build an RE over a plain 13Bt for that (or so I think). Could be beneficial for that, but I believe you need a new set of motor mounts.

20B's go in the same chassis as a 13B-RE does and use the same mounts as it. The cons mostly are the quality of parts required to properly build it, which is obviously going to increase your expenses.

The sound of a 20B is insane...

sharingan 19

iTrader: (16)

13bt - cheapest option to buy, cheapest option to mount, cheapest option to find parts for. For your power goals you don't need anything else. A hybrid, an Rtek, and some injectors can get you to were you want to go.

13b RE(W) - Better manifold design, larger ports, easier to make big power (big = beyond your stated goal) I'm pretty sure you could make 340whp w/ less boost using an RE(W) but if you don't plan to go over 400 its not worth it. They do not drop right in, so some kind of mounting solution will have to be found. Unless you want to run just the keg, you are now out of Rtek range, and talking about wiring up a full standalone, both of which will increase costs. You are also looking at a turbo upgrade in all likihood, as few keep the stock twins ....more $$$.

20B Baller status. It will easily make your power goals and provide much more torque. The sound is amazing, and you will be the envy of rotary enthusiasts wherever you go. But its not cheap. For what you will pay for a 20B you could buy a 13bt , rebuild it and port it, and prolly start on suspension work. You will need custom mounts, you will need a stand alone, and none of it will be cheap. 6k is not a reasonable budget to build a 20b car, unless it has 100+ compression when you get it... and we can't very well count on that. for 9-10k however you could have a beast-mobile!

ToddV

Great Info, Lets extrapolate from here:

13bt What are the options available from here?
Keep the TII turbo & intercooler? Get an A/M turbo and keep the stock intercooler setup? Get A/M turbo and A/M plumbing intercooler? upgrade options/requirements to engine management, or stock ecu & harness? What's the least expensive route and the expected performance? What's the most performance I could expect from throwing say $4K - $5K at it and what would I need to get there? & What's the best bang for the buck combo?

13b RE(W)What are the options available from here?
Keep the stock twin turbos? Can I keep the stock intercooler setup? Get A/M turbo and A/M plumbing intercooler? upgrade options/requirements to engine management, or stock ecu & harness? What's the least expensive route and the expected performance? What's the most performance I could expect from throwing say $4K - $5K at it and what would I need to get there? & What's the best bang for the buck combo?

20BWhat are the options available from here?
Keep the stock turbos? Can I use the stock FD twins? Is N/A an option for a street car? (without extensive porting, wouldn't the expected output be so low as to negate the expense? Can I keep the stock intercooler setup? Get A/M turbo and A/M plumbing intercooler? upgrade options/requirements to engine management, or stock ecu & harness? What's the least expensive route and the expected performance? What's the most performance I could expect from throwing say $9K - $11K at it and what would I need to get there? & What's the best bang for the buck combo?

Also, what options are available suspension-wise?

Think of this as a guide to building up a fast street driven FC . . .

20Bforme

really surprised that this hasnt popped up in this thread yet.

http://www.fc3spro.com/TECH/SWAP/swap.html

ToddV

Good stuff there.

It may seem lazy, but I'm looking to compile the various options available in a single thread. It makes it easier to compare the different builds and thus makes it easier for others to provide valuable input to the decision.

ToddV

It looks like the 13B-GT or 13B-GX is the least expensive option, but provides the least upgrade potential (400HP max according to fc3spro.com) as the dowel pins crack if you apply boost in an attempt to get better than 400HP. A basic engine swap can be done for around $3K - I would be looking at a bit less than 200WHP with the stock setup. A single turbo setup could get me up to 340WHP but the costs go up quickly with a single turbo setup for any option.

The 13B-REW is a bit more expensive, and requires a fabricated crossmember to reconcile the differences in the engine mount placements, but is a more evolved design and supports more power (up to around 500HP+) (figures vary) and will better support higher pressure boost.

The 13B-RE (from a Cosmo) is pretty much the same as the 13B-REW but the mounts differ and there are custom mounts commercially available - however this is a little harder to get a hold of in the US as it a domestic market only platform.
I can easily fab a crossmember so the 13B-RE(W) are essentially the same to me. If I stick with the twins I'm looking at $4k-ish and around $10K for a single turbo setup.The stock twins should get me around 220 WHP. I could get around 400 WHP with a single turbo setup.

The 20B is basically a 13B-REW setup with an extra rotor and one of the twins is smaller. It will require a fabricated crossmember. Does the 20B interfere with the rack & pinion/ front suspension like it does in an FD??? The stock twins will give me around 250-300 WHP and I can get better than 600 WHP with a single turbo setup. The 'likely' core 20B will cost me $3K - $4K and then $2K to $3K to rebuild (minimum). It doesn't look like many people have had much luck with the OEM 20B ECU, so you're likely looking at an A/M ECU (another $2K) plus plumbing and various fabrication and you may as well tack another $1K on to it and you are looking at $6K(if you are really lucky and don't have to rebuild the jspec core - which is doubtful) - $10K.

in summary
the 13B TII is the least expensive but will see the least gains with an upper limit of 340 WHP
the 13B-RE(W) will run 1K or 2K more than the TII, will start me off at about 30 to 40 more WHP and has an upper limit in the neighborhood of 500 WHP (realistically 400 WHP)
the 20B will bypass my low option budget ($6K) outright and I can realistically expect to spend my full high option budget ($11K) for a setup with the stock twins and around 250 to 300 WHP and a whole lot more low end torque (which is what will be most noticable during street driving) and I could then upgrade to a single turbo setup in a future project and realistically get more WHP than street tires could handle on an FC.

Does this all sound accurate?

LunchboxCritter

iTrader: (9)

What year is your car?

S4 (1986-88)
S5 (1989-91/92)

The S5 TII model engines are less likely to need pinning.

ToddV

1988 Convertible - FC3C S4