So I've got my 88 NA shipped over to me today and despite what those pretty eBay pictures said I've spent the whole day doing various things to try and get it to start.

So initially the battery was dead. Replaced.

Then I proceeded to see if the spark plugs were OK. It seems the previous owner (or whoever serviced the vehicle) used the same NGK ones for all 4 plugs (both top and bottom). I got T specific and L specific NGK ones and have installed them - and yes, I have tested to make sure they do spark (rubber connector).

The one thing that sounded different between the spark plug changes was the sound of the engine chugging. I'm assuming that during this time it was burning off the old gas that was sitting in the engine which produced the chugging sound as now I have no engine sound, just the radiator and belts cranking (fuel pump problem probably). Oh and the old spark plugs were covered in oil. Tried flooring the accelerator and removing the injector switch in the fuse box. No go. Flood ahoy?

So after that I tried to figure out if the fuel pump had problems. I'll test the pump tomorrow but spent most of the time trying to find the damn fuel relay switch (didn't have the Haynes manual at the time) and found the one under the driver's leg and the one in the back trunk. I also tried spraying ATP directly into the engine and that didn't work either. I'll do some proper testing on a multimeter tomorrow and see if it's the pump or the relay or both.

So the question is, when should I stop and just get it towed to a mechanic? Assuming that the seller was honest (small dealer, 100% positive 180+ feedbacks on eBay motors) - which I believe he is, just that when he tested the car it was probably when he first got it. I'd like to avoid spending alot paying for the mechanic to fix one thing, only to not be able to drive it back (so basically 2 way tow) to my house - since I have to replace all the fluids anyway.

And since the engine's flooded, if I find out that I have to replace the fuel pump, relays and do the self flood fix, is it worth it? Or should I just save myself all the hassle and just get it towed to the mechanic? That engine flood problem sounds daunting.

And yes, I will be having a nice phone conversation with the seller since I paid $4500 USD for it and for that price I expect to at least have the car start up.

Thanks ahead of time for the help. I guess you really have to test drive the car in person before you buy. Pictures can only tell so much.

 

So I tested the pump and fuel relays today. Pump's dead - replaced. Relays are blown - replaced. The only part that's not on hand is the driver's side fuel relay which I'll have to order.

So basically, fuel wasn't even getting to the engine. When I removed the old pump the hoses were pretty dry (compared to the usual gas leaking out etc). I tried the jumper method to go around the blown relays but the fuel pump keeps pressurizing (doesn't stop after a few seconds). According to Haynes that means there's a leak somewhere? And what the heck is this solenoid relay? Haynes says it's in the lower left (near the intake filter) but there's nothing in there my SE model (unless it's hidden behind the headlights). Lastly, the fuel pump switch that's in the air pressure valve - is that important? I didn't have the time nor tools to run a air pressure test so that's still up in the air.

Lastly, will I still have a flooded engine after I've gotten the fuel pump and relays to work properly and deliver gas to the engine? I've tried the 3-step and ATF way of starting the engine before and it was a no go. I'd smell the starter fluid coming out of the exhaust but no ignition despite testing the spark hoses and seeing sparks. Or have I already used up all the fuel inside the engine?

 

When the fuel pump check connector is jumpered and the key is to ON, the fuel pump runs continuously. That is normal.

There is no such thing as PRIME which gets mentioned on this forum. NO such function.

There is probably nothing wrong with the relays. If the pump rins with the fuel pump check connector jumpered, then all is fine with the fuel system.

The fuel pump NORMALLY runs only when the key is HELD to START or when the engine has actually started and the key has returned to ON.

There is a micro switch in the afm, and when the vane in the afm is moved back by the flow of air entering the afm, that switch *Makes*, putting a ground on the Circuit Opening Relay above the drivers knees area. That is what makes the relay pull in and the pump run.

When you jumper the fuel pump check connector near the afm area of the engine bay, you do the same thing as the vane in the afm. It puts a ground on the Circuit Opening Relay just like the micro switch in the afm does.

When you HOLD the key to START there is another seperate circuit inside the Circuit Opening Relay that pulls in that relay and makes the pump run. IF the engine does not actually start and you let the key return to ON from START, then this seperate circuit inside the Circuit Opening Relay becomes disabled and the pump stops running.

There is no fuel relay in the trunk area of the car. I think you said that, if I'm wrong disregard.

So if the thing is FLOODED, my suggestion which is different than most suggestions on flooding, is to pull the fuel pump connector apart so the pump can't run. Then spray starter fluid into the intake prior to the afm for two to three seconds max. Then try to start the car.

Hopefully it will start momentarily. If it does, then repeat one or two times more. After that reconnect the fuel pump connector and spray once again and hopefully it'll start and stay started.

Sometimes a car is sooooo flooded this won't work. I've seen posts on here that say it did not work for them. Sorry 'bout that. Always worked for me. By the way, I don't read PM's from this forum.....ever. Just FYI.

 

in my limited but educational experiences with both my 87 NA an 82 NA is patience.

if u know there is fuel, spark, and the engine turns, it will start. i dont know how many times ive read that in here, but it seems to be so. i used to have a hard time gettin my 87 to start an had fequent flooding problems (leaky injector).. id just work the starter like a bastard and pump the gas pedal like it was on fire. then after id parked it and pulled the emissions out of it i had a terrible time gettin it to start, spent the better part of two hours with it hooked up to my moms ride for battery power, but it started, smoked like a bitch for a minit or 2 and has ran excellently since. just kept turnin it over an bouncin on the gas, get out pull fuses, "deflood" repeat. after a while i could hear it catch.. then pop.. then gurgle.. etc etc etc till it fired an stayed lit

just picked up a 82, got to it and it didnt want to start at all.. there i sat unable to drive my new ride home. turned it over.. pulled the plugs.. unflooded it .. there was gas.. there was spark.. an it was turning.. IT WILL START.. hooked it up to a old ford truck for juice.. same as before.. unflood.. try to start it a few times repeat.. it can take a hell of a long time.. an in the end i had to replace the starter in the 82 afterward (it was shot anyhow) but it started.. now it runs great. rotary do not like to sit around it seems.

its barbaric, and alot like fixing things with a hammer, but its worked for me time an again

 

Thanks for the replies.

So what I should do next time is pull the fuel pump relay (the one next to the driver's leg) and then spray starter fluid into the intake (afm = air flow meter?) and just keep cranking (no need to pull the EGI?).

I'm a little worried about burning out the starter... How long should I hold the crank? Unlike most people, I don't hear any chugging when I tried this before. All I see and hear is the radiator fan turning, belts turning but no mechanical engine noise (all electric sounding).

I'll have to wait until next weekend to work on it, as I'm back on campus and have another wonderful week of school to complete.

 

a bad water temp sensor will keep your car from turning on. ( happened to me once, engine kept turning but never turned on)

 

dont crank it longer than 10 seconds , then leave it for a while and crank again ( or so the haynes manual says ! )

 

Make sure you have spark first.

Make sure the ENGINE fuse is good in the interior fuse box. Third row from the bottom, second or third fuse from the left.

IF the fuel pump is disabled, the spraying starter fluid in the filter area should get the thing to start in just around four or five seconds. IF it does not start or make sounds of starting after ten seconds of cranking, there's something else wrong, like lack of spark.

I was earlier talking about pulling the fuel pumps connector apart to prevent the pump from running. I'm not a big fan of pulling EGI fuses in stead, BECAUSE you have no SPARK if you do that and crank the engine over. Just does not appeal to me at all. If I'm DEFLOODING I'd like to have spark to go along with the deflooding. Common sense thing to me. Not others though.

 

I just did the remaining relay tests and it seems that all my relays are now in working order. However, when I turn the key halfway I don't hear the fuel pump pressurizing (regular key turning, not using the jumper bypass). According to what Hailers said, I'm assuming that the AFM is at fault?

I don't have my Haynes book on campus, but does it contain a section related to testing the AFM? I might have to order one off of eBay (afm) so I can replace it (if that's at fault).

 

try push starting it. if it doesnt push start than you have a bigger issue than flooding. check the connections by the clutch and brake resevoirs.

 

So I got off the phone with a local mazda parts guy, and he told me that the RX7's fuel pump is not supposed to initiate (like most cars) when the key's half turned. Apparently the pump doesn't turn on until the engine's cranking, in which case you probably wouldn't be able to hear it over the engine anyway.

So he thinks it's just a simple engine flood. He gave me the EGI + crank ankle sensor + remove spark plug solution. I'll be trying that over the weekend. I guess when I tried the ATF spray-into-intake method I didn't give enough fluid into the engine to ignite.

I know my spark plug hoses are igniting. Is there a way to test that I've screwed the spark plugs on tight enough/know the spark plugs themselves are igniting? I don't want to over torque it. Also, are the NGK spark plugs gapless? I recall someone mentioning something about .028 gap.

 

i have never set the gap on my plugs !?!?

when i put the key in and turn it so all the dash lights come on - i can hear the fuel pump prime for about 2-3 seconds , then i start the car

what sounds do you get when you move the key to show all the dash/idiot lights ??

Stu

 

Aside from a few relays clicking and dash lights coming on, I don't hear the fuel pump priming. Was the mechanic guy wrong in that rx7's fuel pumps don't start when you turn the ignition half way?

 

I've no idea who your *mechanic guy is*. Not me. I'm no mechanic. I work on vehicles that use JP-5 and go up in the air, and most come down sooner or later, one way or the other.

Re-read my first post about fuel pumps and when they run. Series four cars have NO PRIME FUNCTION.

The nearest thing to Prime, would be HOLDING (KEY WORD, *HOLD*) the key to START. The Start position is all the way clockwise.

Series five cars? Maybe I shouldn't comment on series five and leave them alone.

 

im telling you .. keep that water temp sensor in mind... its behind the aluminum top filer neck.

 

So I've thrown up the white flag and will have it towed over to a local mazda repair shop (mazcare).

The most unbelievable thing happened when I was doing the complex unflooding procedure. When I took out my 2 leading spark plugs... they were mangled... like... really bad. Tip's broken off from where the (rotor?) hit them... Apparently NAPA (bastards) sold me the wrong leading spark plugs (these looks like your standard gapped ones - not like the ones you see in the Haynes manual. I didn't know what they were "supposed" to look like originally so I had no clue (didn't have the manual with me)... That pretty much explained the all electric sound I was hearing.

I put the plugs that I had when I first go the car back in and tried the unflood 3-step procedure (so now I've got Trailing plugs in all 4 sockets - ugh). Well, the exhaust popped a bit and it was burning something... It sure didn't smell like gas though. It still seems that I might have a fuel injector issue, but I tried HAILER's method of spraying starter fluid prior to the AFM and the engine didn't start up. Then again, it might be due to the spark... My leading spark hoses fire really slowly (compared to the trailing ones). Is that normal?

Anyways, it'll get towed tomorrow and hopefully they'll get it fixed as I just want the thing to run. Maintenance / changing old things out will be fine, I've just given up on this whole "not starting up" issue.

 

[QUOTE=chaz9999]So I've thrown up the white flag and will have it towed over to a local mazda repair shop (mazcare).

The most unbelievable thing happened when I was doing the complex unflooding procedure. When I took out my 2 leading spark plugs... they were mangled... like... really bad. Tip's broken off from where the (rotor?) hit them... Apparently NAPA (bastards) sold me the wrong leading spark plugs (these looks like your standard gapped ones - not like the ones you see in the Haynes manual. I didn't know what they were "supposed" to look like originally so I had no clue (didn't have the manual with me)QUOTE]

Wow! If the rotor nailed the wrong spark plug that was sticking into the combustion chamber, what does the rotor and the apex seal look like???

Whenever I buy spark plugs from wherever I get them, I always have to educate the kid behind the counter selling them. I have yet to run into one that knew anything about the plugs and the rotary.

B

 

I'll have to let the Mazcare guys take a look at it. If there's significant damage, I'll probably try to sue NAPA and get them to fix my car / buy me a new engine.

I'm just surprised the NAPA guy got me the wrong leading plugs. He pulls it out of a database. Either the DB's wrong or he pulled the wrong parts off the shelf (he got the trailing plugs right).