10thAEWHiteHeat

iTrader: (4)

Ok so i have finally taken the plunge and my 10th AE is currently in its cocoon awaiting to transform into a serious ******* butterfly lol.. This is the first time i do anything close to this substantial of modifications to my 7 so i would like suggestions and advice everyone has learned through experience. Here are the goods so far..

- Rebuild with large street ports and 3rd gen rotors
- Full Mallory ignition
- E-Fan
- Fluidyne Radiator
- T70 turbo w/ turbo mani and external wastegate
- 6-puck clutch and 8lb flywheel
- Greddy 24row FMIC
- HKS SSQ blow off valve
- Emissions removed
- Greddy porfec boost controller
- Microtec and tune after the break-in

So i need suggestions on fuel i would like to run 9-10lbs low boost and 15-16 lbs high boost and any other suggestions and advice anyone can add. PLEASE ask questions and give me all the angles possible i want to do everything right and although i trust my mechanic i would love to hear advice from different rotorheads because knowledge =POWER

13bturbofc

iTrader: (4)

go with a supra twin turbo pump, 850 primarys and 1600cc secondaries with aeromotive or sard regulator and all stainless steel lines up front for fuel system. get yourself some kgparts fuel rails. the microtech is a great choice for a ECU, i would suggest instaling the microtech from the get go, break in the motor with the microtech. get a base map for break in then get it tuned

13bturbofc

iTrader: (4)

be sure to invest in a wideband o2 sensor, boost and water temp gauge at least, your best bet on the fuel system is to get a package deal from rx7 store. id invest in a nice aluminum radiator. and also remove your OMP, injectors and lines and then use premix. its much more efficient and reliable. feel free to PM me about anything you may not be sure about as ive done a few similar builds and have yet to blow up a motor. the key is alot of planning and taking your time. never rush things, if you do it will come back and bite you in the ***

PvillKnight7

iTrader: (16)

i'd go with a full faced disc. I have a sprung 6 puck and its not fun. The area of pedal travel between not engaged and engaged it very small. You really have to ride the clutch to get the car moving from a dead stop. The life of the disc will be short and it will scorch the flywheel badly.

Havoc

Mate, just run high boost and use your accelerator to regulate.
Also I wouldn't go out of my way to get S6 rotor's.... S4/S5 ones will do your after.

Also if you set on a micro all well and good, but look around. Haltechs are better and in the same $$ ball park now. Can log Wideband etc and can control your eomp and boost (so dont need a boost controller separate). Micro's cant... and their customer support is non-existent . I'm not saying go haltech, but shop about.

Also do the ecu install at the get go.
And every man and his dog have opinions on fuel pumps... go with what your mechanic is experienced with (personally I like bosch 044's )

arghx

iTrader: (3)

Microtech's still won't let you save your maps to your computer. That's ******* retarded.

emissions removal--do not remove your themowax and dashpot, not unless you have the microtech set to control an idle air control motor that will stabilize idle on cold start. It is a bitch to have the car not idle cold just so you can save two coolant lines. Removing the dashpot also makes the car stall more easily, especially when moving around at lower speeds (parking lots and such) with a lightweight flywheel.

The T70 may be big for 15-16psi. And your manifold and wastegate should not be ebay knockoffs if you value longevity.

10thAEWHiteHeat

iTrader: (4)

Well i am not gonna have the money to do the microtec right away unfortunately.. I was just going to break it in with what i have now and then when i install the microtec also install all the fuel stuff and tune. While i am breaking the motor in i will be able to save up enough so i don't have to go cheap on any of the parts is it really that bad of an idea??

On the whole microtec thing, its what my mechanic tunes and tunes well so i prefer to go with that. I wont be doing much tuning myself maybe i will learn more about it if its really recommended. I already have a boost gauge and a narrowband i did want to invest in an EGT and a Wideband though..

I am using S6 rotors because they are better for the street, as my car will not be a full out race car. My mechanic is trading me his S6 rotors for my S4 rotors because he is building a race car for himself.

Why is 15lbs too low for a T70?? Anybody wanna recommend a good clutch?

Havoc

Well i am not gonna have the money to do the microtec right away unfortunately.. I was just going to break it in with what i have now and then when i install the microtec also install all the fuel stuff and tune. While i am breaking the motor in i will be able to save up enough so i don't have to go cheap on any of the parts is it really that bad of an idea??

All good, if that what you installed wants, follow his lead. But you will have to run stock injectors etc if trying to use the stock ecu

On the whole microtec thing, its what my mechanic tunes and tunes well so i prefer to go with that. I wont be doing much tuning myself maybe i will learn more about it if its really recommended. I already have a boost gauge and a narrowband i did want to invest in an EGT and a Wideband though..

If your on a budget get the computer and other parts first, he should have a wideband and tune the car to suit. wideband is good when your the one tuning.

I am using S6 rotors because they are better for the street, as my car will not be a full out race car. My mechanic is trading me his S6 rotors for my S4 rotors because he is building a race car for himself.

meh no real difference. one is slightly less compression ratio.

Why is 15lbs too low for a T70?? Anybody wanna recommend a good clutch?

T70 compressor map is suited for more like for 20psi. 15psi it will just be starting to work Clutch will be up to what you can afford.

13bturbofc

iTrader: (4)

id seriously advise you to save up and install the microtech from the get go because you really cant do alot of other mods you need to do with the stock ECU and wire harness. like your OMP, proper fuel mods,ignition and quite a few other things. and do you really trust your crap 20 year old harness and ecu with your new motor? just trust me man it will be alot smarter/easier to save up and get the microtech at the same time you install the motor.

s4 rotors are the best/strongest rotors you could use for a boosted application. dont get rid of them. use them for your motor. are you sure he is not just trying to con you to get your rotors? because in no way are the S6 better than the S4.

T70 wants more like 20-25 to run efficiently. i would go with a T04R or T04Z.

Evil Aviator

A T70 is entirely too big, and will make your car into a lag monster that will get spanked by cars with smaller turbos. Get something smaller like a 60-1, T04E-60, TS04, or T61. If you can afford it, get one of the high end GT35R or GT40R turbos which are more efficient and spool faster than the older T-series turbos. Whatever you do, make sure you get a "wet bearing" turbo with both coolant and oil leads. The cheap Ebay junk usually only has oil leads.

After the Microtech is installed you can upgrade the fuel injectors depending on how much power you intend to make. You can use one or two cheapie Walbro fuel pumps for most applications, but I recommend a high end fuel pressure regulator from SX or Aeromotive.

Yes, it is a good idea to install the Microtech FIRST. You can install an upgraded fuel system at the same time, but keep in mind that it is going to cost way more than you think. I would estimate $800 to $3,500 in parts alone, depending on how serious you are about the fuel system. If money is a factor, you can get the car running with the Microtech, and then install the upgraded fuel system later.

Yes, always use the EMS that your tuner recommends. You don't want your car to be a guinea pig for some wanna-be tuner to experiment on. Microtech products have always been at the lower end of technology, but they have been successfully running street and race RX-7's for many years.

I do not recommend wasting money on EGT and wideband AFR gauges. Your tuner should already have all of the equipment he needs. Once the tuning is finished, there is little need for such gauges other than looking cool at car shows.

Because huge turbos like that are designed to move a lot of air at high pressures. They are not well suited for a small amount of air at lower pressures. A T70 would make a horrible street turbo for a 13B, although it would work pretty well on a 3-rotor engine.

ACT is a good brand.

10thAEWHiteHeat

iTrader: (4)

Well unfortunately due to money and transportation issues i need to at least get the motor done and in the car with everything i have already. If its REALLY a bad idea to break it in w/o the microtec i guess i can figure something out. If you are wondering i wont push the carr too hard trust me i am not worried about that. And i will be capping the boost probably.

My orginal plan was to just put a T3/4 wheel in the stock turbo and shoot for about 300-315whp and then eventually go big turbo for 400+. I would still like to do that as it would be fun, efficient, and not a huge sep in power for me to learn how to handle (plus no need to change manifold and do a crazy fuel setup yet). I do kinda feel like my mechanic is pushing the T70 on me but he did bring up a good point about having to go back and install everything again and it costing me more money in labor. Bt, at this point, seeing as i don't have the money to "go big or go home" in the correct fasion, i should go with the original plan..

Does this sound like a better idea? If so what should my plans for fuel be for this setup? As for the clutch i already have a ACT street/strip in there i just figure 300whp would be a little too much for it so why not change it while the motor is out?

13bturbofc

iTrader: (4)

that clutch will be fine for you if its not worn to much..

you can do what your saying about doing it with smaller turbo and stock ecu/injectors but then your talking about a whole different build that none of the stuff we have been talking about would relate to. i did the same thing your thinking about and it wasted alot of money. within a year i was tearing everything apart to install the microtech, fuel and bigger turbo. i wasted thousands of dollars because of that and that's just for parts, i did all the work myself.

i disagree with evil aviator about the gauges. and ill explain why you need these. water temp is needed for obvious reasons, you do not want to cook your new motor because of a leak or a bad thermostat. You need a boost gauge because you can read vacuum on it so it will tell you if one of your vacuum lines blew off. and it will also tell you that your boost is spiking to 20lbs because you had a wastegate line blow off. And the wideband has saved me a few times. i had a fuel pressure regulator go out on me and if i didn't notice it on the wideband right away my motor would be toast.. and it is not uncommon to lose an injector or have a wire short out or even your fuel pump could take a ****...on that note do not get a walbro those things are garbage i have seen many many engines blow up due to a faulty walbro... get a supra twin turbo pump or the bosh 044

arghx

iTrader: (3)

sounds like you should get a hybrid (BNR stage 2 or 3 maybe) with an Rtek 2.1 and 720/720. That should get you around 300whp and not be very expensive.

10thAEWHiteHeat

iTrader: (4)

I really don't want an Rtek.. I would rather do things right and get a standalone. Is it not possible for me to do all the surrounding mods (except for manifold and large injectors) and call it a day? I mean really everything in the build will be the same except i wont have to change wastegate, mani, and just use smaller injectors right? Basically just leave the car ready for big turbo when i want it and then just upping the injectors, changing the mani and wastegate when needed

ITSWILL

iTrader: (12)

I hate to say it but unless you have a passion for the turbo rotary, do an LS swap.

I look at the money I have spent and realize, I could have gone with an LS and had a much less finicky engine, better gas mileage and more potential power.

Unfortunately, there is something a turbo rotary does for me that I can't explain, so T70 and street port is the way I am going (once all the snow decides to leave).

Also just because it is a T70 doesn't mean it is going to be a "lag monster". There are a lot of factors that effect lag including length of exhaust manifold and length of intercooler piping. A smaller A/R on your turbine housing will also significantly decrease lag. The turbine trim also effects lag. If you do your research and build your turbo system properly you should be able to bear the turbo lag.

Also, if you think you can handle it, why not just build a MegaSquirt I think with everything I have under $400 dollars into mine.

Also the 6 puck sprung is great in my opinion.

NotTTT

850 prim/1600 sec is ALOT of fuel. Personally I'm running 750/1000 and that should be enough to reach ~450 RWHP. The bigger the primaries, and the more you change your ports, it will become exponentially harder to tune for a nice idle. I also think that 850/1600 combo is way more injector than the supra pump can handle.

Microtech is in no way a great EMS.

S5/6 rotors are the same compression. S4 would be better if you're planning on running ALOT of boost.

Agreed, thier customer support is a joke at best. Being able to log Wideband readings is a must, I like the idea of having one EMS control everything, meaning I really don't like the idea of a seperate boost controller.

Agreed, I'll be using the Bosch 044 as my pressure pump as well

Yeah, that's a really bad idea. Do the EMS, whatever it is, from the get-go.

Narrow bands are KINDA useless as are EGT's once the engine is tuned. If you plan on making minor corrections once the "tuning" is done, I would agree that an EGT gauge isn't really needed, the narrow band MAY suffice, but the Wideband would be a good investment.

So far I LOVE my exedy twin disc. Retail is something like $2300 though.

Agreed, but you and I are part of a select few that know that Net power is what wins races, and peak power is what sells products, garners attention, increases e-***** size. I would suggest a GT35R or even slightly smaller, and thinking longterm, more fuel with less timing, or an aux injection that would let you keep the timing and get more power. IIRC the GT35R has made ~485rwhp on an S6 Block.


Agreed 100%. If you don't have the coin to do it the right way, you shouldn't be doing it at all. Seriously. You don't want to go cheap. Cheap cost more and rushing it takes longer. I've been working on my project for over 2 years now. Don't rush it. If you want to have some fun in the spring, get a Hybrid that will bolt on, and an EMS that will plug in. Maybe upgrade all the heat exchangers too in prep for the bigger stuff to come.

A few problems with going LS swap
1) It requires the sale of your soul
2) It requires all coin upfront. You can't do it in stages. I think the OP believes that his project is going to be cheaper then it really will be. Doing this in stages for him is probably the best way to go.

Never been a fan of the MS for a bunch of reasons.

I've also never been a fan of puck clutches for the street either. Sprung or not, they can be a PITA to drive. If you're not putting out the torque to require one, don't bother with it, and if you are, I would really suggest going the route I did - twin disc. It's definately grabby, but much easier to get used to and more predictable than a puck clutch

ITSWILL

iTrader: (12)

I dont know how much you think this is going to cost but be prepared to spend at least $10,000

ITSWILL

iTrader: (12)

i was wondering why someone with so few posts had so much to say, then i realized who it was...

Evil Aviator

The car already has a stock water temp gauge, and so does the Microtech. The OP obviously does not have a lot of money, and I think a third water temp gauge would be a waste of money.

He already has one.

He already has a narrowband, which will work just fine as a monitor.

Which is why I always recommend to fork out the money for good stuff like SX / Aeromotive.

Yes, the Walbro is garbage but it is half the price of a Bosch 044, and the OP doesn't exactly sound rich. I actually don't consider the Bosch so great either. A friend of mine works for a leading Porsche GT team, and he tells me that they have to keep a large stock of Bosch pumps on hand because the pumps instantly burn up if the fuel tank runs dry. Then again, I'm biased toward aerospace products like SX / Aeromotive, so my opinion may not be all that accurate in this case.

That's actualy not a bad idea. Were I on a strict budget, that's probably what I would choose.

Unfortunately, some people only learn from their own mistakes. Fortunately, the T70 uses a standard T4 flange, so you can replace it with a smaller turbo once you realize the T70 sucks.

Agreed.

I'm not sure if you are up to date on my car, but my fabricator modified the TII bell housing to accept either a NA or TII starter. This allows me to use the smaller-diameter (less inertia) NA-sized flywheel with the Quarter Master Pro-Series 5.5" 2-disk clutch pack on the TII spline. The 5.5" clutch pack alone reduces inertia by 30% vs. a 7.25" unit, yet it is still rated at 600lb-ft torque. That, combined with the the NA-sized Mazda Comp 4 lb flywheel and Mazdatrix aluminum driveshaft, should provide some pretty fast revving. If the car ends up too difficult to drive on the street in that configuration, I can just swap back to a TII flywheel and regular clutch.

I prefer to look at the torque curve rather than peak horsepower. As a number-crunching physics geek, I view horsepower as the fabricated number that it is. Torque is real, measurable, the direct result of mean effective pressure, and is what wins races and breaks car parts. The concept of horsepower was completely fabricated by James Watt in the 1700s purely for sales purposes, and it continues to used as such today.

+ 1

Evil Aviator

Is the engine in good working condition right now?

ACT clutch/pressure plate combos and torque ratings:
http://www.advancedclutch.com/produc...d_id=2772#2772

NotTTT

You mean who it is not

Agreed, same goes for the EGT gauge, useful for tuning, not necessary for monitoring

Thats interesting. However, if you run a rotary dry while in boost, you're most likely looking at replacing the motor too. I think I'm going to try to set the Motec to cut ignition if the FP drops below a set amount. This could potentially save a motor.


That is REALLY frickin cool. When I do the 6-spd Renni tranny conversion, I was going to use the 5.5" quatermaster clutch and a similarily sized flywheel. For basically all the reasons you mentioned. Very VERY nice and well thought out.


Yup. went something like
what's torque? I need something to relate it too.
And "horsepower" was born - very simplified but still.

I agree though, huge laggy turbo may make a TON of HP up high, but is flat on it's face off boost. Actually an N/A motor will often times make more torque at most driveable RPM's than a big turbo. Think about it.

That's why I went with the setup that I went with. More net torque across the useable RPM range will result in a faster car under most circumstances than a monster turbo making twice the peak HP.

Evil Aviator

Yeah, I wish. Originally I was going to use a race-modified NA transmission, which is nearly up to TII standards. Then I got to thinking it wasn't such a great idea since the engine is going to produce well over 400lb-ft torque, and the guys at Mazda Comp laughing about that pretty much cemented that idea as bad juju. Then I upgraded to a rebuilt TII transmission, only to find out that I can't find a TII sized flywheel for the 5.5" clutch. The bell housing modification was therefore a solution to make up for poor planning, although it should turn out superior to any of my bright ideas. Fortunately, I have friends and race shops in my corner to make up for my lack of mechanical know-how and inexperience in the automotive field.

Er, I mean I planned the whole thing myself, yeah, that's it.

GT35R: 79% max compressor efficiency
T61: 77% max compressor efficiency
T70: 75% max compressor efficiency
So which one makes a TON of HP again?

Rough estimates of the lowest engine rpm at which each turbo would be able to produce about 16psig manifold pressure without stalling out the compressor:
GT35R: Surge limit @ 2.20PR = 13 lb/min (about 2000rpm)
TSO4: Surge limit @ 2.20PR = 17 lb/min (about 2800rpm)
T70: Surge limit @ 2.20PR = 30 lb/min (about 4500rpm)

For the benefit of others reading this, I would like to point out that there is a difference between boost threshold and lag. Larger turbos, by definition, have a larger diameter, and therefore more inertia which makes them slower to spool. With everything else being equal, larger turbos have more lag, and that is the way it is unless you can figure out some way to defy physics.

Meh, not really. With everything else being equal, the engine with the big turbo would pretty much equal the torque of the NA engine until the turbo hits its boost threshold. Even a high-end NA 13B has low-rpm torque problems due to massive porting, so that pretty much puts it in the same category as a turbocharged engine with a high boost threshold. At least the NA engine doesn't have any lag, but that would not show up on a dyno sheet.

Also, turbos technically multiply pressure and increase torque. It drives me nuts when the vendors advertise their products as adding pressure and increasing horsepower in an attempt to sell their wares to what they consider an ignorant customer base.

FRFC3S

iTrader: (24)

Take it slow and make sure everything works along the way. I have seen so many huge projects fail because somebody does $3000 in mods and it doesn't run and they can't figure out why.

+1 for doing it in stages.

10thAEWHiteHeat

iTrader: (4)

Ok so first of all thanks for the wealth of info guys.. This is EXACTLY why i did this. Well, I am not exactly poor but I don't have a large ready source of $ to tap in to. I as well believe in doing everything right and this is why i am asking the opinion of you all. Now, what it sounds like i am going to do is the following..

1) Rebuild the motor w/ big streetport (should i stick with the S4 rotors?)
2) Mallory ignition
3) Install the Microtec off the bat
4) E-Fan
5) High flow radiator
6) Rebuild stock turbo with T3/4 turbine so i can make some decent power
7) port the manifolds or get S5's

I think this will be the best route to take and then when i am ready to make the investment in big turbo i will do so. What injectors should i run for this setup? And what other mods are recommended? How much power will i make on this setup on like 13lbs?

Please hold nothing back i need to make sure i do this **** right.. Oh and the motor is not in very good working condition i belive maybe a coolant seal the motor is being opened this week.

MaczPayne

iTrader: (5)

Talk to Bryan@BNR if you want to do a hybrid setup.