jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Great Idea and execution.

However, Gene is right. To explain: You really don't have enough mass of liquid water to amount to any appreciable cooling. That is, until you experience a phase change ie from liquid to gas/ water to water vapor. This is basic thermodynamics. You don't have to study much to have a basic understanding.

Here it is. To change the temperature of water from 99.9C (just before boiling) to 100 takes about 5 times the energy that it takes to change the temperature of water from 0.1C to 99.9C. This is the heat of evaporation. This is the inherent power of your cooler, not the excess water dripping off the intercooler.


Adjust the spray on a hot day so that it slightly drips. Now you are good to go at all temps. This is the low hanging fruit.

It will drip a little more on a cooler day, but that is unavoidable without some very sophisticated controls.

Good Luck!

Black Knight RX7 FC3S

iTrader: (7)

as long as the water absorbs the heat, its doing its job. Is it efficient? no, but its something lol.

If you really want to get into it, you can make a custom shroud under it with it channeling to some hoses to drain the water away from the electrical components and the engine itself and dump it near the tranny.

KhanArtisT

iTrader: (2)

Jackchild: Thanks, I think it depends on what your opinion of "appreciable" cooling is. For a total of $6 spent (I'm unemployed, my time is of no value) I'd be happy with a difference in 10 degrees. In addition, I now have the option to throw ice cubes in it on days where I'd be driving the car hard. The average person with all the windshield wiper equipment attached would probably spend like 30 minutes doing this, lol.

I went for a drive a few hours ago (~90* with 48% humidity) and felt a noticeable difference in the IC temperature feeling it with my hand. With no spray I couldn't touch it for more than 5 seconds, with the spray (~7 sec.) I could touch it for as long as I wanted. They were two separate drives with WOT full boost pulls in 1st and 2nd gear. No real test results but I'm definitely satisfied.

It looks like some of the water stays on the tubes which helps the cooling slightly as it evaporates. The whole intercooler becomes wet and that water evaporating further cools it. For anyone skeptical of the effects you should google DIY INTERCOOLER WATER SPRAY and read about people's experiences that have monitored the changes using IAT readings. I read enough good results that I was convinced.

Edit: And I don't think a shroud is needed. It was retarded for me to leave the TPS connector hanging like that with no plug. I taped that and the BAC connector (didn't do the solenoid connectors) and its fine, it looks like most of the water pools into the shroud and drips away onto the bellhousing of the trans.

1SWEET7

iTrader: (1)

Great stuff. I have been thinking of this for quite some time except I will be using my headlight sprayer reservoir. I was also thinking of using an adjustable home/garden sprayer nozzle so that I could fine tune the spray pattern.

afpreppie04

iTrader: (5)

Wait a second...you have headlight washers? How does that work? I thought only volvos and such had those.

1SWEET7

iTrader: (1)

They came on the 10th AE's They are pretty useless though.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

See the calculations below. I think my definition is pretty accurate, your guess is not.


I think you misunderstood me and you certainly misunderstand the operational principal of your well executed project. I was telling you great job and then explaining why it worked.


No. You have it *exactly* backwards. The evaporation cools the intercooler then the excess water cools it (very little) further and may even hurt.

Really.


Here is why. The latent heat of evaporation. Two things to examine here, the evaporation and the extra water 'dripping' off.

1.) What is the temperature in your water tank today? Lets say it is ambient-90*f. Using your data of 90* and 48% R.H. gives us a dewpoint of 67.6*f. The water strikes the intercooler surface and evaporates. The evaporation cools to 67.6*f. The extra water is 90*f. The extra water is 22.5* warmer than the resulting evaporation. Once we pass the maximum amount of water that will evaporate, the additional water just warms the intercooler back up!

Warning! Ms. Science is not treating your theories very well so far!

Not convinced? Maybe you want to put ice cubes in the tank and cool the water down below the evaporation temp? Sounds like a great idea! Let's examine the plan under the unblinking gaze of Ms. Science.

2.) Now we have added enough ice to cool the tank down to 34*f. That's colder than the evaporation temperature, right? It should work, right? No, it won't and lets find out why. To figure this out, we need some information from 'science'.

Here are a couple of constants for our use.

1 BTU of heat raises 1lb of water 1 degree F.
1 # of water absorbs 1060 BTU's of heat when it evaporate.

Ouch!

How many sprays does the 1 gallon supply 50 or 100? Let's assume 128, because the math will be easy. We can scale the results later. So each spray is 1 oz. If we evaporate 1 oz of water, we have the cooling effect of 66 BTU's., or
~ 1060btu/16oz=66.25btu/oz.

What if we take our 34* icey water and spray an extra 1 oz onto the evaporatively cooled intercooler? Well, we could assume that the 1 oz of 34* water could possibly warm up to the 67 degree temp, right? So the equation is as follows:
67*-34*1oz=33 degrees. So 1oz* 33 degrees/16 oz=2BTU's of additional cooling.

Summary:

66 BTU's for the first oz. sprayed and evaporated. Appreciable
2 BTU's for the second oz sprayed and dripped off. Non-appreciable


Ms. Science is a harsh and inflexible bitch who again bites your theory on the ***.

The system does work, but it is driven almost entirely by evaporation.

BTW, I used to make my living selling (among other things) evaporative cooling systems to the horticulture and agriculture industries. Most farmers do not think in scientific units of measure, but rather in English units, so that is the best way for me to explain to the non-scientifically oriented.

Black Knight RX7 FC3S

iTrader: (7)

usually, if the water is evaporating, its absorbing as much heat as it possibly can

KhanArtisT

iTrader: (2)

I realize what part of your post I misread now. I didn't choose to take a scientific approach in whether the system was worth the time and money since I feel the effects of it are proven to me in everyday activities (taking a shower, washing my hands) so anything relating to science is taken lightly and often ignored. Nothing personal

So I have a hard time imagining the fine droplets of water evaporating before the spraying is finished (total 5-7sec.) but I suppose it is possible. Either way even if some droplets of water did evaporate before the spraying is finished, they do not carry enough mass to bring the temperature of the IC even close to 67* therefore the cooler water being sprayed onto the IC would be cooling it through convective heat transfer (the effects of which seem to be unmentioned in your post) and the water that remains on the IC core would then evaporate and cool it even further. If the water is cooler than the TMIC, there is no way it will ever make the IC any warmer, the two objects have not reached thermal equilibrium.

Because the speed of convective heat transfer is proportional to the temperature variance between the two objects or fluids the cooler ice water would cool the IC better at a given volume of water sprayed. The water will evaporate after it has reached a thermal equilibrium with the IC.

Example: Drive a stock TMIC car hard, park it. Take your garden hose to it (without an attachment) and hose down the IC. Turn off the water and feel the IC, it will have a significant change in temperature from the hot IC having transferred heat to the cooler water. The water doesn't have to evaporate it to cool it, a large amount of cooling is done through convection.

Frostycrowd

iTrader: (9)

I have looked twice in the last few years for nozzles at homedepot and can never find them, when I ask no one knows either

NeCr0mStR

iTrader: (3)

Have you ever thought to just search water spray nozzle on google.com?

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Ok, you still don't get it. Apparently, you won't *ever* get it. You are trying to prove that the system works. I know it works, but you don't have a *clue* as to why. Your above paragraphs show a complete lack of understanding of basic thermo, but it doesn't matter today.

You remind me of Monty Python science-What also floats in water? Answer: Bread, apples....Very small rocks!?

The nice thing about science is that it can work for you even if you don't understand.

The harsh thing about science is that there is always a next time. If you are a poor scientist and if you aren't lucky, it works against you. You get bit in the *** (or the apex seals).

Again nice work on the project. You are lucky, today. Enjoy it.

Gene

iTrader: (1)

Sure, that would work great, but by "too much" what I was getting at is you're not making efficient use of the somewhat limited water supply you can reasonably carry around with you in the car.

lastphaseofthis

iTrader: (8)

oh so i guess water doesn't cool unless it's evaporating??
i guess every water cooled engine manufacturer missed this important information.
Don't be retarded. if the Ic is 195 degrees, and 80 or 90 degree water hits it; it isnot going to evap. but it will reduce the temperature. i would like to see a cheap adaptation to a AIR to WATER intercooler using the stock TMIC. but that would still require some sort of radiator somewhere else, it gets pointless.

Gene

iTrader: (1)

Man did you read any of the more in depth physics posts or my own last post before writing that reply?

lastphaseofthis

iTrader: (8)

You are missing the Point of this, and honestly sound like you just got out of science class and are desperate to find a use for what you learned today....

The point was to cheaply provide a means of reducing the temp of his TMIC. NOT TO GET EVERY LAST DROP OF WATER TO ABSORB THE MOST AMOUNT OF HEAT SCIENTIFICALLY POSSIBLE.

Step into his shoes, lets shower 5 gallons of water on the IC and take one run down the Road. yay my IC temp dropped 5 Degrees!!! It WORKs. Pat on the back to the OP.

ALSO, when he said hes adding ice, dont include the non ice water in your SCIENTIFIC approach...it's a stretch hes going to shoot water on the IC and then put ice into for 2nd gear.
and if pouring water on the IC til it hits and stays 98 DEGREES(your heated up temp) works.... it would be fantastic, i would love a 98 degree IC instead of 200+. I dont think your are going to get a system to only inject enough water to keep it at "67.6*f" for 6 BUX and some **** from the garage.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Oooo, touche'! Wow, thank you for getting me all straightened out! I especially like the all caps.

Seriously, you have limited knowledge and *zero* understanding as well! Go ahead and laugh at my 'science'. I dumbed it down and converted it to English units just for you.

These intercooler spray/evaporation concepts are basic high-screwal physics. Maybe you should take it again next semester? Your last several posts make it apparent that you weren't paying attention last time.

Turbocharging a car is an exercise in applied thermodynamics. You can keep playing with your toys, but on a fundamental level you are totally clueless about what you are doing. You ape the projects you read about and imagine that you understand how they work. You would do far better if you educated yourself.

Science is not some dumb stuff that is taught in a class. Science is a precise description of how things actually work and a method to apply what you know to new or different situations.

Wouldn't that be an advantage in modding your car? In Life?

In the mean time, you boys just keep talking amongst yourselves, ya hear?

Class dismissed.

KhanArtisT

iTrader: (2)

Frosty: It should be in the hardware section on the other side of the nuts/bolts/washers. If you find the picture hanging kits it should be directly across from it. Don't get the "0.8 GPH fogger/mister", I used them and they got clogged in just a few sprays. Maybe they'd work with a filter. I forget what mine are called but they'll have a threaded blue nipple for the hose to go on.



K then, I think you are ignoring the basic concept of heat transfer through contact. With your mentality I could spray for a split second to get the intercooler wet and the heat absorbed through evaporation of that water would do all the cooling. I can tell you that this would do absolutely nothing for cooling, maybe one or two degrees. I think heat absorbed through evaporation is only one way the IC is cooled, the other being the colder water making contact with the blazing hot TMIC and transferring heat. Thats why its sprayed for 5-8 seconds and leftover water further aids in cooling after it evaporates. Its true that nailing the TMIC with water is not efficient use of the water (when compared to a small spray) as Gene stated but it is WATER, after all and I could care less. This is good advice to someone that chooses to use a small reservoir for weight savings or fitment.

KhanArtisT

iTrader: (2)

Pic with the reservoir painted and a bracket JB welded.

<a href="http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=39313093&a lbumID=2017873&imageID=55798667"><img src="http://hotlink.myspacecdn.com/images02/107/5091a2b38a0845df9ef857d764f9c272/m.jpg" alt="" /></a>

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Here is my last try at this, then I will leave you alone. Yes. Evaporation is one way that the IC is cooled-the PRIMARY WAY. And no, I am not ignoring the 'basic concept' of heat transfer through contact.

You don't understand: YOU don't get to choose, by your beliefs, which way the IC is cooled. The Mean Bitch of Science does.

When you spray on your intercooler, the same evaporation happens whether you put on just barely enough water, or way excess water.

So let's pretend that only 1-oz evaporates per spray. It is probably more like 2 or 3 oz, but let's just go with 1-oz for now. That first 1-oz removes more heat than the next 32-oz of dripping water can remove-IF the dripping water is at 34*

The first oz evaporation =the next 32oz of 'contact' water at 34*. But what if it is two oz of evaporation? Now you would need an additional 64 oz of water at 34* to equal the same cooling!

So now do you get it? The ratio is 32:1 evaporative cooling vs. 'contact cooling' at 34*.

But what if the water is not 34* like in our example. Now how many gallons do you want to drip off?

And just how big is that Honduh tank, anyway?

Great Project.

Suggestion: for your next try why don't you put the spray inside the intercooler, making a water injection system?

SirCygnus

iTrader: (1)

heres my 500 dollar solution.


spray it into the air. that way, you dont have to try and heat a piece of metal. its also more efficient as the water is ALL used up.

KhanArtisT

iTrader: (2)

Yes, the same evaporation happens but not the same cooling affect, not even close. I agree that spraying only 1oz is better use of the water than spraying like 32 because of the heat absorbed through evaporation but the simple fact that the additional water does help cooling slightly (by making contact and transferring heat) justifies spraying it since the tank holds 2.5L and water is free. I fail to understand how the additional water could actually hurt the IC as-in make it warmer but I apparently never will, lol.

Water injection is superior to an intercooler sprayer in every functional way, there should be no doubt about that. The simple fact that this setup costs next to nothing is why I think it will help this community; which lives for cheap effective mods whether they're power adders or reliability mods. This thread isn't the typical "please praise my badass knowledge and fab skills and leave comments and suggestions" thread, lol. Its my attempt at giving back for all the knowledge I gain from this board.

My opinion on WI is since fully utilizing the system requires tuning fuel and timing maps I should stick to buying a proven kit from a manufacturer to avoid the possibility of parts failing and costing me an engine. However, being that I'm on the stock ECU I might go this route in the future. It does cost more since atomization of the water with the use of jets requires a high pressure pump and then SS lines and fittings to avoid failure. I might buy only the boost pressure operated solenoid and pump from coolingmist and use some high pressure hose and clamps.

SirCygnus

iTrader: (1)

the lines and fittings cost less than 10 dollars from lowes.

feed the tank pressure from the turbo ( compressor fitting ) and so that it forces water into the system. the more pressure it puts out, the more water is sprayed. its so simple it hurts.


also, you dont need to tune for water. and acts as an octane booster. water injection can be done cheeply if you so do choose to make it cheap.

pumps are cheap, and controllers are just as cheap from labonte motorsports.

IanS

iTrader: (4)

Im not getting involved with the whole science debate here but I would like to say that having some sort of arming switch with a WOT momentary switch to run a solenoid or relay (think nitrous) would be a great way to use a setup like this without actually having to pull the lever back to spray the water.

Lots of different ways to control when/how it sprays. Cool idea.

fidelity101

iTrader: (11)

jesus! what more do you guys want from a 6 dollar mod?

A+ even if it works the smallest bit