sharingan 19

iTrader: (16)

Funny thing is I looked at the diagnostic screen on the rtek when I was checking the afm. I guess I'm just so used to seeing the neutral switch checked it slipped my mind.

I'll see if I can rig up something to look at the injectors, or get a friend to help. Its starting to look like one (or both) secondaries just decided to take a ****, which would be strange since they were cleaned/tested less than 6 months ago. Maybe they just got stuck from non-use since I wasn't boosting while I broke in the clutch?

Sounds like the next thing to try...
Wish the fsm had more details on what type of problems a bad neutral switch signal could cause, to see if its even worth checking.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

fine, ignore my post..

not to slam any of the guys trying to help you but voltage readings do not always tell you if a circuit is good or bad. more often than not in these cars i find full voltage but near 0 amperage due to crappy wiring that causes things to get skipped over. sometimes the best way to test something is physically. basically meaning you are seeing 12v in a circuit but there is not enough push behind it to even turn on a light bulb.

testing the secondaries really isn't that difficult of a task, much simpler than spending 8 hours testing circuits with a voltmeter. swap the pins and try to turn on the car, it will tell you 100% for sure if the secondaries are working or only 1/2 is firing in just a few minutes time.

sharingan 19

iTrader: (16)

Karack:
As soon as I am back home I will try your test. Do I need to swap all 4 secondary pins or just the 2 w/ the green wires?

gxl90rx7

iTrader: (1)

i think my/satch's suggestion about plugging the boost sensor line would be the easiest way to test the secondary injectors. should take all of 5 seconds to plug the line. and if it is unconclusive, then you can always dive into swapping injectors or pins

sharingan 19

iTrader: (16)

Since this problem occurs specifically when the secondary injector flag comes on (rtek) I don't really see how doing that provides any additional information. However I did it anyway and in first second and third gear it doesn't hesitate @ or near 3800. Keep in mind I moved the secondary staging point to 3360. In 4th and 5th it started to stutter/vibrate around 3600.

HAILERS2

If memory serves, that part about getting the secondarys to come on in the driveway requires a bit more than pulling off the vac line to the boost sensor. You do that and also pull the plug off the TPS if memory serves. It's from a procedure outlined in the 86-87 FSM in the Fuel and Emissions section. ......if it does not do it doing that....then try also puching in the clutch and putting the thing in gear.

I used to do that procedure on a 86 and 87 car(s) and the secondarys would come on in the driveway. In that FSM test they have you putting a stethoscope to the secondarys on a non turbo and listening to them click. NOT a reasonable thing to do on a turbo and for that matter even a non turbo imho. BUT when rev'd over 3800 you could audibly hear the engine run rough as the secondarys came online.

I just know I can slip a wire up the back of a secondary wire at the ECU in a heartbeat and go drive the car over 3800 rpm and see the volage drop or not see the voltage drop as it comes online. IF the wire couldn't carry volgage then the meter would read zip voltage in that case after the secondarys come online. Not that hard to perform. Then again I've long meter leads of approx 15ft that will go anywhere I want.........like on top of the dash infront of me while driving.

sharingan 19

iTrader: (16)

First, let me clarify. I didn't do that procedure as I had no light and no patience last night, I actually got in the car and drove down the road to make those observations.

Second, I didn't realize I could run a wire up the back side of the plug. Now I don't have to wait for a buddy to do this!

How often is it the ecu? I really don't think it is in this case, since it ran just fine before the clutch. Seems more likely that the injectors/wiring took a **** than the ecu just spontaneously decided to act up. We'll see...

gxl90rx7

iTrader: (1)

log the secondary flag with the rtek when you do it to make sure they are coming on. after staging rpm it should be pretty obvious if an injector isnt firing. it will cut either about -25% or -50% fuel if one or both secondaries arent firing. otherwise it shouldnt even stumble

sharingan 19

iTrader: (16)

I did. The log is in the rtek thread, I'll repost it.
The flag comes on, the duty cycle drops (iirc its 50%) the stumbling occurs.
So as far as the rtek is aware its sending the signal to the injectors. It drives smooth as silk until the secondaries are supposed to come on. At that point either they don't and the promotes can't keep up; or for some reason they are injecting way too much fuel and the motor can't burn it.

I'm not sure which, so I will do Hailers procedure to verify, but I suspect it's the former.

gxl90rx7

iTrader: (1)

no , i meant make a log with you revving it in neutral with boost sensor line plugged

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

forget the BS about trying to ***** test the secondaries. you already know you are troubleshooting the secondaries so the vacuum line and revving the motor and popping in the gear won't tell you anything you don't already know. what you are trying to find out is which secondary isn't firing and whether or not it is:

a) the injector crapped out
b) the EGI 12v signal is corrupt by high resistance
or
c) the injector driver wiring is frayed/corroded or is bleeding off into another circuit(high resistance when load is present, also not easily deducable from testing the wire itself)

believe me, i spent some time doing this on an n/a and that is a much simpler setup than a turbo car has...

swapping the pins in the ECU allows you to manually test the injectors and wiring for both primary and secondary injectors with the engine off by spinning a spare CAS with the ignition on. what is the purpose? it takes all this retarded guesswork out of the equation. taking apart the harnesses on these cars i know how janky they are with their brass crimp connectors and vinyl tape to seal them up.

an alternate method would be to simply just run 2 new wires and solder them to the secondary injector driver pins to the ECU on up to the secondary injector pigtail plugs(obviously not the 12V power feed side of the connector). that will take care of 1/2 of the possibility, you can then patch in 2 wires from the battery to the EGI side of the injector connector pigtails. this will eliminate the possibility of the harness being at fault. with this you won't have to test anything, just take the car for a drive, however i would rather test them manually with the aforementioned test since with the TII it isn't such an easy task taking off the UIM every time you need to test something.

btw, i accept tips.

sharingan 19

iTrader: (16)

Ok, I'm game. How exactly does spinning an extra cas w/ ignition on test ther injectors? What am I going to be looking for exactly and where will I be looking?

I'm guessing its the injectors that are the problem, and even if its one that's bad, I'm.replacing both of them. I'll get to work swapping the pins cuz I'm not removing the manifold again till its time to replace the injectors...hopefully. And any "test that involves soldering on,near, or in the ecu is not for me lol.

EDIT: how the hell does one de-pin the small ecu connector?
I was able to do the connector for the abs fuse (unrelated project) but these tiny little bitch-clips are proving to be a real pita! Any advice on techniques or special tools would be appreciated.

satch

iTrader: (1)

You could remove the pins from the plug to solder the new wires.

W/key to on if the CAS is spun it sends the signal to the ECU and the ECU takes care of the rest and fires both the injectors and coils.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

yep, just makes it so you don't have to remove the CAS from your engine and retime it afterwards, although it's easy and i'm spoiled because i have about a dozen crank angle sensors lying around.

you can either listen for the audible click from each injector(you can verify it by removing the connectors from each injector one at a time while spinning the CAS) or remove the secondary rail and strap the injectors to it and watch the spray pattern while turning the CAS. a more definitive test is to remove the rail and strap the injectors to it to see the actual spray pattern or see if they are opening at all, even though an injector may click it doesn't mean that the inlet filter on the injector isn't clogged up with silicone or some other foreign debris.

sharingan 19

iTrader: (16)

Understood. I recently came into 4 extra cas myself so that part will be easy. However, to do that I will still nee to swap the pins at the ecu plug. Any tips on that?

satch

iTrader: (1)

Use a very small screwdriver and place it into the plug but not the back of the plug but from the side which plugs into the the ECU and press down on the clip and it should slide out.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

jewelers screwdrivers, like for eyeglass repairs work fine. or if you do electrical work there is a special "star" shaped tool for extracting pins from connectors found at some tool stores. just pop the locks off the wiring end of the connectors(pry them from the inside out, center of the connector they fold out hinged at the side), look down the ECU side of the harness and on the open side of the pin you will see the lock, you just need to pry the lock away from the terminal slightly while pushing the pin back through the connector back end.

sharingan 19

iTrader: (16)

Okay, so I swapped the secondary pins into the primary position, and left the primary pins flapping in the breeze. Tried to start the car...no dice. It sputters for a second like it wants to catch, them it just spins. (i changed the rtek settings to 720/720 so that is not the issue)

So it seems I have a bad injector or two; yeah I know there could be some kind of wiring/existence/amperage situation, but what's the more likely failure? A wiring harness that has been upgraded/repaired and been working fine (even w/these injectors when they were first installed) OR some greddy 680 injectors bought used on ebay that came back flowing 710 after cleaning.... I wonder if injector dynamics makes 720s?

I suppose for extra piece of mind I can do the cas/stethoscope test ...time to hit harbor freight.

EDIT:
So for S&G, before I put the pins back I swapped the rtek settings back to 550 primaries. It actually turned over and ran for about 1.5 seconds. It was very rough, like running on one rotor perhaps. Perhaps I should set the rtek for 550 secondaries when I put the pins back? Although if one injector is stuck closed that might cause a lean condition for one rotor...not good.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

yep, you just now have to figure out which secondary isn't firing with one of the methods i outlined above. it's very difficult to start the car on one rotor.

sharingan 19

iTrader: (16)

If only I were so lucky as to have one injector not firing... I tried the stethoscope/cas and both injectors click

I also switched the rtek to 550/550 (as opposed to 550/720). Now the car no longer falls on its face in boost, the NB reads right on the edge between stoich and rich when doing a 4th gear 75% throttle pull.

So it seems like they are opening, but not injecting as much fuel as they are supposed to for some reason. I replaced the filter and cleaned out the bungs when I installed them, so I doubt its sediment/silicon.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

test your fuel pressure then or pop an alligator clip into the black/white wire at the fuel pump and drive the car while monitoring the fuel pump voltage.

13's under mid throttle is a difficult one, as the stock ECU is mapped rather lean in the mid boost ranges and even in the upper ranges. you can see if you can bring the maps down some and see if it is responding to adding fuel or i would guess your pump is being overworked or is getting too low of voltage which is resulting in the secondary transition spike.

sharingan 19

iTrader: (16)

Fuel pressure (from the pump) was tested as per fsm when the injectors were installed. System pressure @ idle was 40psi when I first installed the fpr, that's what it was when I raced my friend w/o stumbling. That's what it was when the stumbling started. The fp @ idle is now 30psi after reading that stock is supposed to be 28.

I'd like to figure out what the problem is and fix it as opposed to just building a map to accommodate it. Ill go swap the ecu pins back and go find my gator clips...

sharingan 19

iTrader: (16)

FP Voltage Results
Idle - 1100rpm : 8.1 - 8.6 v
Cruising : 8.4 -8.7 v
Boost < 5psi : 7.7 - 10.4 v

Something tells me that I should at least be seeing 12v @some point in the process. The strangest party was that sometimes it actually dropped voltage going into boost. Also, on one of my test pulls, the stuttering came back.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

nah but those figures are low. whenever you have an adjustable fuel controller it is a good idea to rewire the fuel pump, which you see now. you'll have to turn the fuel pressure down and likely end up taking fuel away from your maps afterwards. it makes me frustruated seeing people come to tuning sessions with stock wired fuel pumps as i see AFRs bounce around, trying to figure out what the issue is, i usually just tell them to go rewire them real quick and it fixes the issue immediately.

Nick_d_TII

iTrader: (6)

Well, I hope that's your problem... I would say it's an issue.

Solution to my fuel pressure issue: https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...+fuel+pressure

Personally, I wouldn't be doing 4th gear pulls. 1st and 2nd until it seems ok then 3rd and 4th, but hey it's your car. Sounds like your getting closer...