FEDREX

What's the difference between a H3 compressor and a TO4E-46 compressor?

bdc196

CHRA stands for 'Center Housing and Rotating Assembly' -- the cast-iron made housing that houses the centre shaft loaded on seals and/or ball bearings that runs an oil jacket (and sometimes water jacket) through it. The CHRA mates the compressor and the turbine together.

... and Ted's right -- The 46 trim won't make much. Reading the compressor map, and figuring roughly 10lbs/min of airflow to create 100bhp in the 13B rotary engine (there are a zillion factors that will change this figure), the compressor will be marching right outside of its best efficiency zone and not be worth it. In short, it's marginally too small for that desired power output.

B

bdc196

The H3 TO4B spec looks like a much more efficient compressor as compared to the TO4E-46. It's probably also physically bigger. I'd have to check my Turbonetics catalogue to know for certain.

B

vosko

iTrader: (4)

its already on the car i'm not taking it off right now i'm running a panspeed ecu and its running great

bdc196

The shop or 10-sec FC car has nothing to do with the merits of the argument for or against the 300hp/320hp figure. Regardless of what they say, there needs to be some real math and such to justify this. I'm with Ted, generally speaking, on these issues as he's got extensive knowledge in this area as well as a nack for mathematics, mechanical engineering, engine workings, etc. He knows his way around on that. Based on what I saw, the compressor would have to output between 16 and 18psig of positive output pressure (with respect to its output airflow) to come near the potential power output. That's also not figuring the flow-ability of the turbine housing to move that much mass air at a given engine RPM.

The injectors, etc. etc. don't determine the general power output as they're, at best, only 1/11th of the amount of air/fuel mixture being introduced into the chamber. In short, usable power is directly proportional to the amount of mass air the engine can pass in and out, which is directly determined by its air source or positive-pressure air pump, the turbocharger.

B

Ranzo

I agree that it has only to do with the flow rating of the turbine and the BSFC of the Engine that it is attached to it. Just because a turbine can flow X amount of air does not mean that your car will make X amount of horpower. In a similar light it does not matter how much air you are flowing if you don't have the fuel to support it the power will not be there and this will most likely lead to a blown engine.

According to the Turbonetics flow map for a H3 compressor at 14psi there is enough flow for about 320 HP.

Randy....

RETed

When it comes to shooting turbo power, it's all about POTENTIAL.&nbsp We cannot give you the EXACT power you're going to make, but we can give you a good estimate on the POTENTIAL.&nbsp Like bdc196 said, it's about the math...

I base my numbers on cars that have run most of these compressor upgrades.&nbsp My numbers are (on average) on the very conservative side.&nbsp I usually put that disclaimer in every once in a while.


-Ted

FEARED7

Reted,
can you tell me why carbon seals can't handle over 15psi? I want to know your response....

RETed

Carbon seal in the turbo, right?&nbsp This has just been my experience.&nbsp There are others who will claim the turbo will handle over 15psi of boost reliably - I tend to disagree.

The carbon seal was designed so that turbos could run in "draw-through" carburator systems.&nbsp This means both air and fuel are sucked in and pressurized by the turbo.&nbsp The fuel would normally leak past the other type of seal (i.e. dynamic seal), so you couldn't run a dynamic seal with this type of fuel system.&nbsp These turbos were never meant to boost over 1 bar of boost anyways - early turbochargers were never meant to boost over 1 bar of boost either.&nbsp The dynamic seal changed all of this - with the use of a dynamic seal, you could boost until the turbo or the motor would blow itseld to pieces.&nbsp Turbos boosting over 20psi and even over 30psi are all dynamic seal turbos.&nbsp All your modern day turbos are all dynamic seal turbos...

I've torn down a LOT of stock Zenki turbos, and these carbon seals "chip" due to the extreme speeds the shafts and wheels turn to push boost pressures over 14psi.&nbsp We're talking surge pressures that probably spin the turbo over 100,000RPM!&nbsp This carbon seal contacts a position "dowel", which means the face of the carbon seal is spinning at the shaft speed while pressed (by a light speed) on an aluminum shaft spacer!&nbsp How'd you like to be that little carbon seal pressed against an aluminum spacer while you're spinning over 100,000RPM - YEOW!



-Ted

jspecracer7

wow!!! RETed, I've said it before and I'll say it again...


...you the man...

Ranzo

Damn did Ted explain that **** or what!!!???

Hey Chris, your mods take up half the page man, oh yeah and what was that girls name again??

most stock turbines are not designed to boost more than 1 kilo or 14psi. If you are lucky enough to have a kouki turbo then you are in better shape than most. The R33 skylines and such have ceramic internals and the exhaust blades are some type of plastic. One good trip to 17psi and the turbine will usually self destruct, if not then inside of three months you will be replacing it.

If you feel the need to boost more than 14psi on a stock turbine then I would reccomend getting a more efficent compressor to make the same power at a lower boost.

Manolis_D

iTrader: (2)

What's the Kouki turbo good for? I talked to one of the guys down at mazdatrix, and he said that it was around 15psi, but he seemed a bit reluctant to give me a 'definite' number

FEARED7

Hey REted,
I built a turbo for a customer of mine. H3 To4B style with a stock turbine wheel clipped to my specs. The car went a 12.3 at 114mph on 18" radial tires and a boggin 1.9 60 foot. That is around 320 RWHP out of that turbo at 17 psi. Since then I have upgraded that to my stage 3 and he says that turbo rips the H3 a new one and guess what?? Stock turbine wheel clipped more! He says he will be dip in the 11's soon! He just popped his rear casing, so he will be back on track soon... I know some of your turbo talk is bad wrong...

FEARED7

sorry if I posted this twice.

Reted,
Your opinion on 15psi on the carbon seal is wrong. I have built many many carbon sealed turbochargers that blew way way more than 15 psi of boost! You really want to know why carbon seals leak??
An encapsulated carbon seal in the HT18 has a spring and a little black o ring inside of it. When that o ring gets some age on it, or see gassy oil, it prunes up and therefore leaks oil into the compressor side of the turbocharger. It has nothing to do with boost or the carbon seal cracking. The cracking only happens when the encapsulated carbon seal is improperly installed and improperly assembled.
Carbon is a really hard substance and it takes heat like the best of them. But since there is constant oil surrounding the carbon seal, heat and friction is at a minimum.
Bryan
www.bnrsupercars.com

RETed

Bryan Smith? Previously of RotorSports (or something like that)?

Crap, Vegas buffet strikes again "(by a light speed)" should be "light spring" - that didn't make any sense.



-Ted

BoostedRotors

Different Bryan, previously of Turbo Specialties.

RETed

Bryan who?



-Ted

FEARED7

Whose your daddy? lol j/k Bryan Nickell

FEARED7

Hey Chris. Email me at BNRsupercars@aol.com and I will get back to ya on that question.
Bryan

Jerk_Racer

FEARED7 will keep you updated via e-mail on you turbo while he's working on it.

FEDREX

Just got off the phone with Robert (Tech at Majestic Turbo) as I had some questions after reading these posts. He's the guy that built my turbo - I am simply relaying what I was informed:

According to him, the reason the carbon seals in the HT-18's go **** up is heat and age, not psi. Part of what they do during the rebuild process is put in new seals - he confirmed that I have a new carbon seal in this turbo.

I then asked him some stuff about flow and hp. At 15psi, he estimated somewhere around 30lbs./min for approx. 600CFM.

Regarding HP, this turbo is efficient to about 20+psi ( I won't be running that high, obviously)
As for dyno numbers, Civics and Integras have been putting down 300-320 at the wheels with the same turbo at 18psi.

From what I gathered it sounds like the weak point would actually be the engine.

When asked why they didn't do a clip, he said the new Stage III t/w that they installed already comes with an 8 degree clip from the factory.

As for milling of the housings to accept the wheels - 40/1000's of an inch.

FEARED7

Hey Fedrex. Thanks for informing us with Roberts opinion. I am sure he is very reputable. A new barbon seal is a must! The O ring cracks after a long period of time... As for a turbine wheel clip. The factory turbine wheel has too be clipped in order to increase the efficiency of it. After you go so far, you must replace it with either: T3 High Flow, 0 trim,69 trim, or P trim. Then you are maxed out on Compressor wheels. I can go to a T04S style wheel, but lots of modifying and custom parts have to be made! Lots of time and thought too...