Hopefully the last "starting a rebuild" thread
04-26-09, 05:00 PM
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Hopefully the last "starting a rebuild" thread
ok guys, i fully realize that there is already a huge volume of threads concerning this topic, but i cant seem to find exactly what im looking for.
im trying to get a rebuild started. actually already had it started once, it died immediately and then i realised there were several problems so i had been working on fixing those issues. now that they are (or should be) fixed, the car doesnt even start! heres what i know it isnt:
compression is ~65-75 psi on all 6 faces (low but standard on a rebuild??)
verified fuel at rail (inline gauge)
verified spark via timing light
timing was set at TDC
new plugs
squirted oil into motor
no rags in intercooler, etc
no vac leaks
*believe* there's no electrical mishaps
tried starting it w/ a jump from another car, AND from a jump box. when that didnt work i tried push starting. when that didnt work i tried pull started it @ 20mph. it sounded like it was combusting and all but would die if i disenganged the clutch.
today i pulled everything except the waterpump/altenator off just to make sure i didnt miss anything obvious (i have like 3 sets of gaskets) and came up with nothing. the car is heavily modded, check the signture for details. what i hope to do is solve this problem and in the mean time get a all-inclsive list of things big and small that would inhibit rebuild starting so we can hve a good singular thread for the hundreds of ppl that have this issue to look at. so eve if it doesnt apply to my situation (i.e.- squirt oil to build compression) or its omething miniscule, please list it, but by all means if you have an idea of what you think my problem might be, lemme kno.
im trying to get a rebuild started. actually already had it started once, it died immediately and then i realised there were several problems so i had been working on fixing those issues. now that they are (or should be) fixed, the car doesnt even start! heres what i know it isnt:
compression is ~65-75 psi on all 6 faces (low but standard on a rebuild??)
verified fuel at rail (inline gauge)
verified spark via timing light
timing was set at TDC
new plugs
squirted oil into motor
no rags in intercooler, etc
no vac leaks
*believe* there's no electrical mishaps
tried starting it w/ a jump from another car, AND from a jump box. when that didnt work i tried push starting. when that didnt work i tried pull started it @ 20mph. it sounded like it was combusting and all but would die if i disenganged the clutch.
today i pulled everything except the waterpump/altenator off just to make sure i didnt miss anything obvious (i have like 3 sets of gaskets) and came up with nothing. the car is heavily modded, check the signture for details. what i hope to do is solve this problem and in the mean time get a all-inclsive list of things big and small that would inhibit rebuild starting so we can hve a good singular thread for the hundreds of ppl that have this issue to look at. so eve if it doesnt apply to my situation (i.e.- squirt oil to build compression) or its omething miniscule, please list it, but by all means if you have an idea of what you think my problem might be, lemme kno.
04-27-09, 05:14 AM
#2
Possibly fouled pliugs due to your standard rebuild assembly oil. Pull the plugs, clean them. Crank the motor with the plugs out for a minute. Try another squirt of oil in the chambers. Reinstall the plugs, and crank er' again.
Its been said once, its been said a hundred times. Rebuilds are notorious for not starting right up.
Its been said once, its been said a hundred times. Rebuilds are notorious for not starting right up.
04-27-09, 10:06 AM
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Possibly fouled pliugs due to your standard rebuild assembly oil. Pull the plugs, clean them. Crank the motor with the plugs out for a minute. Try another squirt of oil in the chambers. Reinstall the plugs, and crank er' again.
Its been said once, its been said a hundred times. Rebuilds are notorious for not starting right up.
Its been said once, its been said a hundred times. Rebuilds are notorious for not starting right up.
theonly thing that im not fully sure of is my electrical stuff. is there any common things that people forget todo as far as electrical is concerned? sensors that could be causing this? afm? tps? etc? thanks
04-28-09, 11:07 AM
#6
The car doesn't need much to start. You need compression (yours is good), fuel (injectors energizing, fuel pressure), air (unlikely the cause) and spark. IIRC if you had a big intake or vacuum leak the car would start and shut off immediately.
Here is a trick that will save you tons of time. Remove the CAS, leave it plugged in, put the key in the on position and turn the gear. Listen for the plugs firing and the primary injectors energizing.
If you hear both and have compression, check fuel pressure. If you're suspicious of a weak spark, place the plug with the plug wire close to the block and turn the CAS gear. You should see the spark and it basically eliminates the entire ignition system as a possible culprit.
Question: How did you check spark with a timing light without starting the engine? IIRC that is done at 750rpm. Timing will be fine if you install the CAS correctly and line up the marks (very easy) though so you can rule that out.
Here is a trick that will save you tons of time. Remove the CAS, leave it plugged in, put the key in the on position and turn the gear. Listen for the plugs firing and the primary injectors energizing.
If you hear both and have compression, check fuel pressure. If you're suspicious of a weak spark, place the plug with the plug wire close to the block and turn the CAS gear. You should see the spark and it basically eliminates the entire ignition system as a possible culprit.
Question: How did you check spark with a timing light without starting the engine? IIRC that is done at 750rpm. Timing will be fine if you install the CAS correctly and line up the marks (very easy) though so you can rule that out.
04-28-09, 08:15 PM
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2slow, yea i thought of that and was really hoping that was it. when i pulled everythin apart and checked to make sure no rags were in the ic pipes i also checked the couplers (of course since they had to come off). as far as fuel is concerned. i have 800cc primaries and hav the rtek set to 720cc pri. (as hi as it goes) with a -12% correction to compensate (the rtek thinks the inj. are 720cc. theres an 80cc diff between that and whats actually there. 80 is a little over 11% of 720 so i rounded up for good measure. hope thats rite??!)
khan, i will definately try the cas trick, i did that to check for spark but not for the injectors energizing. i lso thought at first that this was my prob when it started and died but now there isnt even a start.
fuel pressure is ~ 40 psi while cranking via my gauge on my fpr. i kno that this is about right for idle, is it ok for cranking?? too much??
i dunno how much diff it makes, but i was saying weak spark because while i was cranking the motor to test compession i inadvertently left the fuse in and the unpluged wire threw a small spark. now this happened once before a long time ago when working on a unrelated issue on my old seven. only difference was that back then it threw a much bigger spark. that part of the reason i think it might be a bad ground or some other elec. issue. that and the fact that im almost positive that i have combustion essentials (fuel, air, compression and ignition.
about the timing light. i just verified spark by cranking with the light attached to a plug wire. the light was blinking so i kno i have spark. i did NOT set the timing like this tho since i cant get it to start (and like you said, it must be adjusted at idle). i just set the crank pulley and cas to TDC.
also, is it possible to be 180 out? i noticed that one revolution of the crank is a half revolution of the cas gear. either i dont think that this is an issue because i have tried flipping the CAS multiple times to no avail.
any nd all ideas are needed. im gonna double check everything for the 5th time for good measure but at this point i think its something obscure or electrical (electriccal is obscure to me haha) bad ground?? bad afm?? thank for the input so far
khan, i will definately try the cas trick, i did that to check for spark but not for the injectors energizing. i lso thought at first that this was my prob when it started and died but now there isnt even a start.
fuel pressure is ~ 40 psi while cranking via my gauge on my fpr. i kno that this is about right for idle, is it ok for cranking?? too much??
i dunno how much diff it makes, but i was saying weak spark because while i was cranking the motor to test compession i inadvertently left the fuse in and the unpluged wire threw a small spark. now this happened once before a long time ago when working on a unrelated issue on my old seven. only difference was that back then it threw a much bigger spark. that part of the reason i think it might be a bad ground or some other elec. issue. that and the fact that im almost positive that i have combustion essentials (fuel, air, compression and ignition.
about the timing light. i just verified spark by cranking with the light attached to a plug wire. the light was blinking so i kno i have spark. i did NOT set the timing like this tho since i cant get it to start (and like you said, it must be adjusted at idle). i just set the crank pulley and cas to TDC.
also, is it possible to be 180 out? i noticed that one revolution of the crank is a half revolution of the cas gear. either i dont think that this is an issue because i have tried flipping the CAS multiple times to no avail.
any nd all ideas are needed. im gonna double check everything for the 5th time for good measure but at this point i think its something obscure or electrical (electriccal is obscure to me haha) bad ground?? bad afm?? thank for the input so far
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04-28-09, 09:05 PM
#8
40 psi is good fuel pressure. I have a hot wired pump that runs at that pressure and it starts up every time.
To rule out the weak spark you can test the resistance of the plug wires, resistance of the leading coils (pri/sec.) and voltage at the coil itself. To check the plugs you can use known good ones or the trailings and see if the spark seems any stronger.
It is not possible to be off at all if the timing is adjusted properly. Here is a cliff notes of the procedure:
*Set engine to TDC by rotating it until the yellow mark on the crank pulley aligns with the pointer on the front cover.
*Remove CAS
*Align the two marks, one small circle on the gear (not to be mixed with the two bigger ones) and the mark right above it on the CAS body
*Remove CAS cap and note the position of the sensor and hold it while you install it back into the engine making sure it doesn't move.
As for the AFM if it is disconnected the car will start everytime and die immediately. If the injectors are clicking and you have good fuel pressure it means the wiring is good. You can check the injector spray pattern by removing the manifolds, zip-tie-ing all injectors to the fuel rails and doing the CAS trick if you'd like.
I think you should set the timing and report back.
To rule out the weak spark you can test the resistance of the plug wires, resistance of the leading coils (pri/sec.) and voltage at the coil itself. To check the plugs you can use known good ones or the trailings and see if the spark seems any stronger.
It is not possible to be off at all if the timing is adjusted properly. Here is a cliff notes of the procedure:
*Set engine to TDC by rotating it until the yellow mark on the crank pulley aligns with the pointer on the front cover.
*Remove CAS
*Align the two marks, one small circle on the gear (not to be mixed with the two bigger ones) and the mark right above it on the CAS body
*Remove CAS cap and note the position of the sensor and hold it while you install it back into the engine making sure it doesn't move.
As for the AFM if it is disconnected the car will start everytime and die immediately. If the injectors are clicking and you have good fuel pressure it means the wiring is good. You can check the injector spray pattern by removing the manifolds, zip-tie-ing all injectors to the fuel rails and doing the CAS trick if you'd like.
I think you should set the timing and report back.
04-29-09, 09:57 AM
#9
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this weekend i will definately check the injectors and reset the timing again. altho im pretty sure its in time sonce i set it many times before via the above procedure. i was just curious if it could be 180* out like a piston motor (since 1 revolution of the crank pulley is only 1/2 revolution of the motor itself due to the opposite strokes of half of the pistons from the other half. altho i kno we dont have that issue, i started thinking about it since i noticed that 1 revolution of the crank is equal to 1/2 revolution of the cas. but i guess it doesnt matter since the top of the cas gear is symmetrical anyways.)
05-13-09, 09:50 PM
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small update i guess: i havent been able to work on the vehicle since the last post due to bad weather on my days off...
either way, i checked the injectors: good. i checked the plugs wires and coils: good. timing: good. i double checkedd all my electrical connections and cleaned up my grounds: all good.
im currently checking for vac leaks from hoses, injectors, w/e.
i do have one question tho: about the injectors. i remeber reading somethin about the grommets maybe causing vac leaks. ok, so the top of the diffusers are rock hard (normal rite?) and i have new grommets (the ones on the bottom of the injectors) but on the primaries they fit right in (altho admittedly a little loose, you can swivel the injectors, i hope thats ok) but on the secondaries they dont move at all. i remeber when i put them in; sitting the injectors directly onto the diffusers (no grommets)makes the rail fit perfect upon the holes where it bolts to the LIM. however, when i had installed them i remeber specifically thinking that i should need those grommets on the bottom of the injectors, rite? so i put them on which put the rail up a little too hi, but i just tightened it down. its on so tight that the injectors wont move (i hope thins is cool too). if someone could fill me in before i put the UIM back on that'd be great. thanks.
either way, i checked the injectors: good. i checked the plugs wires and coils: good. timing: good. i double checkedd all my electrical connections and cleaned up my grounds: all good.
im currently checking for vac leaks from hoses, injectors, w/e.
i do have one question tho: about the injectors. i remeber reading somethin about the grommets maybe causing vac leaks. ok, so the top of the diffusers are rock hard (normal rite?) and i have new grommets (the ones on the bottom of the injectors) but on the primaries they fit right in (altho admittedly a little loose, you can swivel the injectors, i hope thats ok) but on the secondaries they dont move at all. i remeber when i put them in; sitting the injectors directly onto the diffusers (no grommets)makes the rail fit perfect upon the holes where it bolts to the LIM. however, when i had installed them i remeber specifically thinking that i should need those grommets on the bottom of the injectors, rite? so i put them on which put the rail up a little too hi, but i just tightened it down. its on so tight that the injectors wont move (i hope thins is cool too). if someone could fill me in before i put the UIM back on that'd be great. thanks.
05-13-09, 10:50 PM
#11
You could get new grommets for like 20 bucks from Mazda (I think advance has them too) for peace of mind, but a vacuum leak that small will never keep the car from starting. You can remove them and run the car and it'll run (I've done it). I don't think you should spend any time at all looking for vac leaks, that's not where your problem is. Just spray them with carb cleaner after you start the car to see if they're leaking or not.
I'm curious as to how you checked the injectors. Resistance? 12V jump to confirm solenoid activation? Spray pattern? If you did the spray pattern test the fuel system would be eliminated (since you have good fuel pressure). And if you did the spark test (plug with wire attached laying next to engine block and CAS gear turning) that would rule out the ignition system.
Quick way to rule out fuel, spray a lot of carb cleaner into the intake manifold through a vacuum port before you start it. If it runs for a few seconds and dies, thats where your problem is.
I'm curious as to how you checked the injectors. Resistance? 12V jump to confirm solenoid activation? Spray pattern? If you did the spray pattern test the fuel system would be eliminated (since you have good fuel pressure). And if you did the spark test (plug with wire attached laying next to engine block and CAS gear turning) that would rule out the ignition system.
Quick way to rule out fuel, spray a lot of carb cleaner into the intake manifold through a vacuum port before you start it. If it runs for a few seconds and dies, thats where your problem is.
05-14-09, 08:28 AM
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yea, first i spun the CAS to see the spark and did both coils and all four wires individually like you mentioned about. all of them threw a spark. while i was doing that i heard the injectors clicking (meaning they were working), and they sprayed what i think to be as fine (like a cone). they were just flow cleaned not too long ago so i had very little doubts about them not working rite. just tested them for good measure. anyways, im begiining to think its either an electrical problem somewhere . i just recleaned and greased all the connections, including grounds. hopefully this helps.....also, coud this be a reult of a bad afm? mine was bought used and testing it via the fsm showed up good results, but you never kno i guess. thanks for everything so far
05-14-09, 10:01 AM
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You could get new grommets for like 20 bucks from Mazda (I think advance has them too) for peace of mind, but a vacuum leak that small will never keep the car from starting. You can remove them and run the car and it'll run (I've done it). I don't think you should spend any time at all looking for vac leaks, that's not where your problem is. Just spray them with carb cleaner after you start the car to see if they're leaking or not.
I'm curious as to how you checked the injectors. Resistance? 12V jump to confirm solenoid activation? Spray pattern? If you did the spray pattern test the fuel system would be eliminated (since you have good fuel pressure). And if you did the spark test (plug with wire attached laying next to engine block and CAS gear turning) that would rule out the ignition system.
Quick way to rule out fuel, spray a lot of carb cleaner into the intake manifold through a vacuum port before you start it. If it runs for a few seconds and dies, thats where your problem is.
I'm curious as to how you checked the injectors. Resistance? 12V jump to confirm solenoid activation? Spray pattern? If you did the spray pattern test the fuel system would be eliminated (since you have good fuel pressure). And if you did the spark test (plug with wire attached laying next to engine block and CAS gear turning) that would rule out the ignition system.
Quick way to rule out fuel, spray a lot of carb cleaner into the intake manifold through a vacuum port before you start it. If it runs for a few seconds and dies, thats where your problem is.
When I did my carb swap, I tried to leave the injectors in the holes to block them off but because the grommets were hard as a rock, the car wouldn't start. It would crank and crank and sound like it was firing and turning over but wouldn't stay running whether I gave it gas or not.
And I'm going to say no to it being the AFM. Even with a bad AFM, the car would still start.
Just keep trying to put oil in the intake to help it start. Make sure the plugs aren't fouled, put like a oz of oil in the intake and just crank it till it starts. That's what we did with a buddys T2 swap. Took like 2-3 minutes of solid cranking but it fired up.
05-14-09, 11:50 AM
#14
This car is not carbed. I've left the grommets OUT of the intake, and a vacuum port unplugged and the car started and ran. If its that big of a vacuum leak it'll start and shut off once the ECU senses the large amount of unmetered air entering the engine.
+1 for the AFM not being bad, it'll start up for a couple seconds and shut off if its disconnected. AFMs aren't known to go bad anyway...I don't see how it could be an electrical problem since all the electrical components required to start the engine are working. I say try the carb cleaner trick, and keep trying to start it. Check for excessive fuel or oil on the plugs after start up attempts. Other than that I'm lost.
+1 for the AFM not being bad, it'll start up for a couple seconds and shut off if its disconnected. AFMs aren't known to go bad anyway...I don't see how it could be an electrical problem since all the electrical components required to start the engine are working. I say try the carb cleaner trick, and keep trying to start it. Check for excessive fuel or oil on the plugs after start up attempts. Other than that I'm lost.
05-14-09, 05:49 PM
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g14novak: yea, im not sure how much of a difference it makes but im just looking for anything at this point as im absolutely stumped.
khan: yep, ive been trying to start it this way, using carb cleaner/starting fluid, putting oil in, re stabbiong the CAS and cleaning the plugs and de-flooding the engine between takes. one i get all the intake back on im just gonna try some more man......im super depressed....
khan: yep, ive been trying to start it this way, using carb cleaner/starting fluid, putting oil in, re stabbiong the CAS and cleaning the plugs and de-flooding the engine between takes. one i get all the intake back on im just gonna try some more man......im super depressed....
05-14-09, 09:55 PM
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ok, so earlier i started putting the intake manis back on. wile i did that i removoed and re-rtv'ed all the BOPs. made sure all the vac lines were good, etc. tommorow or sat. im gonna finish reinstalling the tb, intercooler pipes and such and give it a whirl. hopefully it starts....if anyone else has some clever suggestions, lemme kno! thanks guys.....FML....
05-15-09, 08:11 AM
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Restab the CAS in between the 2 marks, not on the yellow one. I know the FSM states to use the yellow mark on the pulley but I've had better experience putting it between the marks.
05-18-09, 03:08 PM
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ok, for all who care, heres an update:
put everything back together and re-sealed and rechecked EVERYTHING. i also restabbed the CAS AGAIN... that was saturday... i was saving the start up for yesterday, little did i kno it was gonna rain all day....so tonight when i get off (i am at work no and have been here since 9am) i am gonna recheck everything and go threw the start up procedure and hopefully start it. heres my plan:
::recheck CAS again
::crank it over with plugs out and pump disconnected with small amount of oil in it
::check all vac lines, couplers, manifolds, vac caps, BOPs, electrical connections, grounds
:: set Rtek to stockl timing and fuel maps, turning down the cranking fuel by ~15%
::make sure no codes are thrown
:: jump/charge the battery
:: check CAS AGAIN
any other ideas???
o, on a side note; is it possible that the CAS was dissasembled and reassembled incorrectly at some point?? i keep lining the dimple to the piece the sticks out and putting the crank to TDC (yellow mark), but it still acts like it wants to start w/o actually starting (sign of off timing in my eyes) can some one post a pic of what the top of the CAS should look like (like the pointers in relation to the black boxes? mine are at the corners of the boxes, like in the pic attached.) also, is it possible the crank and/or the rotors were installed wrong? like maybe the crank is showing TDC but the rotors are off a couple of degrees (i dunno if the rotors are held on by teeth like a ring gear or with a wooddruff key).... just trying to find something...
any other ideas are welcome like maybe a neutral switch issue? i did switch the tranny after all (car/ motor are s4 n/a, tranny is j-spec s5 TII)
thanks guys
put everything back together and re-sealed and rechecked EVERYTHING. i also restabbed the CAS AGAIN... that was saturday... i was saving the start up for yesterday, little did i kno it was gonna rain all day....so tonight when i get off (i am at work no and have been here since 9am) i am gonna recheck everything and go threw the start up procedure and hopefully start it. heres my plan:
::recheck CAS again
::crank it over with plugs out and pump disconnected with small amount of oil in it
::check all vac lines, couplers, manifolds, vac caps, BOPs, electrical connections, grounds
:: set Rtek to stockl timing and fuel maps, turning down the cranking fuel by ~15%
::make sure no codes are thrown
:: jump/charge the battery
:: check CAS AGAIN
any other ideas???
o, on a side note; is it possible that the CAS was dissasembled and reassembled incorrectly at some point?? i keep lining the dimple to the piece the sticks out and putting the crank to TDC (yellow mark), but it still acts like it wants to start w/o actually starting (sign of off timing in my eyes) can some one post a pic of what the top of the CAS should look like (like the pointers in relation to the black boxes? mine are at the corners of the boxes, like in the pic attached.) also, is it possible the crank and/or the rotors were installed wrong? like maybe the crank is showing TDC but the rotors are off a couple of degrees (i dunno if the rotors are held on by teeth like a ring gear or with a wooddruff key).... just trying to find something...
any other ideas are welcome like maybe a neutral switch issue? i did switch the tranny after all (car/ motor are s4 n/a, tranny is j-spec s5 TII)
thanks guys
05-18-09, 03:14 PM
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****....work computer doesnt let me make an attach ment.....ill do it when i get home unless some one else posts a correct CAS pic first,,,,,thanks
05-18-09, 04:02 PM
#22
In your picture the CAS is slightly off, it needs to be rotated CCW so that the left pointer is touching the lower edge of the rectangle. Try another CAS or keep turning it until you can get it to fire up and then adjust it with a light. The neutral switch is fine if its cranking.
05-18-09, 07:13 PM
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ok, had some stuff come up again tonight and didnt get a chance to start it...tomorrow tho, for sure...
o, the left pointer is touching the bottom edge, just an impromtu paint drawing made at work... either way, can the security system affect starting by chance??? my alarm has been going crazy, so its just a thought.... but if anyone else thinks of anything that could be the prob or something that needs to be added to my pre-start list, lemme kno. thanks again khan
o, the left pointer is touching the bottom edge, just an impromtu paint drawing made at work... either way, can the security system affect starting by chance??? my alarm has been going crazy, so its just a thought.... but if anyone else thinks of anything that could be the prob or something that needs to be added to my pre-start list, lemme kno. thanks again khan
05-19-09, 03:52 PM
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ZOMG it started!!!! not only did it start, but it ran! and i drove it! it idles and drives rough as hell (new motor, tps out-of adjustment, really rich AFRs etc) but it starts on command and doesnt die. thanks a ton to everyones words and suggestions, i still dunno what it was since i redid pretty much everythin, but it was something.
05-19-09, 04:19 PM
#25
ZOMG it started!!!! not only did it start, but it ran! and i drove it! it idles and drives rough as hell (new motor, tps out-of adjustment, really rich AFRs etc) but it starts on command and doesnt die. thanks a ton to everyones words and suggestions, i still dunno what it was since i redid pretty much everythin, but it was something.