Getting ready for Autocross and street fun.
11-25-07, 09:09 AM
#26
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
You don't need any of that fancy junk. Just race in the stock class as-is. I am pretty sure an aftermarket catback exhaust is allowed in the stock class. The stock brakes are perfectly fine, although you may want to upgrade to Hawk HPS or HP+ once your pads wear out. You can change your front tire pressure to get rid of the plowing effect - freebie. If you start upgrading parts too much, you will rapidly find yourself in more expensive classes - not good. The 2Gen RX-7 owners at the autocross can help you out.
Once you have results from 2 autocross events, apply for the Mazdaspeed Team Development program so you can get parts for cheap. Don't bother with the Contingency program right now.
http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/
Some notes on your plans:
- Safety equipment will slow you down, and is not needed unless you are in an autocross class that allows slicks.
- Aftermarket seats are not allowed in the stock class.
- A replacement steering wheel that is not within 1" of the stock diameter is not allowed in the stock class.
- Upgraded suspension bushings are not allowed is the stock class.
- There once was a 3Gen RX-7 rear strut tower brace made to mount seat belt straps. It was made in a very dangerous manner. I do not recommend this.
- Check the rules to make sure I didn't make any mistakes above.
Once you have results from 2 autocross events, apply for the Mazdaspeed Team Development program so you can get parts for cheap. Don't bother with the Contingency program right now.
http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/
Some notes on your plans:
- Safety equipment will slow you down, and is not needed unless you are in an autocross class that allows slicks.
- Aftermarket seats are not allowed in the stock class.
- A replacement steering wheel that is not within 1" of the stock diameter is not allowed in the stock class.
- Upgraded suspension bushings are not allowed is the stock class.
- There once was a 3Gen RX-7 rear strut tower brace made to mount seat belt straps. It was made in a very dangerous manner. I do not recommend this.
- Check the rules to make sure I didn't make any mistakes above.
Safety equipment will NOT slow you down in any class. It will make you "faster" because it's much easier to drive when the driver is secured.
No one is going to care if your steering wheel isn't within 1" of stock size. The stock size is HUGE anyway, and it's unfair that the rules don't take that into account. Besides, 350 mm is within 1.5" of stock, anyway.
Also, no one is going to care if you replaced your bushings or mounts unless you just won a National event, or your region is full of ********. They'd have to do a pretty close inspection to notice the bushings are different, and they'd just about have to pull the car apart to inspect the mounts (unless they're urethane/solid mounts).
As for aftermarket seats, some cars have much, much better stock seats, and you can't install harnesses (which are allowed in Stock according to some people I've spoken to, but I'm not sure) on a lot of FC seats, so it really seems unfair to prohibit aftermarket seats, so long as you've got some sort of appropriate ballast for the difference in stock class (which is about 10 pounds from stock).
11-25-07, 09:19 AM
#27
Learned alot | Alot to go
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You can join mazdaspeed before you even have your results if you can prove your building a car for competition.
i sent them pics of my car, the parts i already have for a rebuild and one sentence on what im trying to do after filling out the application on the website
took less than a week, and the prices are insane, very, very inexpensive.
i sent them pics of my car, the parts i already have for a rebuild and one sentence on what im trying to do after filling out the application on the website
took less than a week, and the prices are insane, very, very inexpensive.
11-25-07, 09:40 AM
#28
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My first suggestion to you is to read the SCCA SOLO II rulebook. You can download it from SCCA's website. Pick the class you want to run. For stock class you are very limeted in what you can do. Struts and a front sway bar are about it.
No matter what class you decide to run a second set of wheels and tires is imperative.
I also consider a good lap belt as a requirement. It is very hard to learn car control if you spend most of your time trying to control your body. I prefer a 3" bolt in lap belt. They are easy to install to the factory seat mount points and you can also keep your factory belt.
If there is a local forum for AutoX I would join that and ask their opinions. You will get a much better idea of what mods they will tolerate that are outside of the rules. If I had a stock RX-7 and wanted to make it fun on the street I would go to STS2.
No matter what class you decide to run a second set of wheels and tires is imperative.
I also consider a good lap belt as a requirement. It is very hard to learn car control if you spend most of your time trying to control your body. I prefer a 3" bolt in lap belt. They are easy to install to the factory seat mount points and you can also keep your factory belt.
If there is a local forum for AutoX I would join that and ask their opinions. You will get a much better idea of what mods they will tolerate that are outside of the rules. If I had a stock RX-7 and wanted to make it fun on the street I would go to STS2.
11-25-07, 10:40 AM
#29
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If you have even one illegal part and you beat someone then how is it fair to those that you beat? That's the mentality of many. I see it all the time on the Miata forum, those super serious national levels guys do local events too you know. If it's something monor and you talk to your competetors about it then it can be ok, but don't be putting them in a bad position by asking to use wider wheels, aftermarket suspensions or anything like that in stock class.
The rules are the same for everyone, if you can't do something in one class and want to do it anyway, move up a class.
The rules are the same for everyone, if you can't do something in one class and want to do it anyway, move up a class.
11-25-07, 11:45 AM
#30
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
In general, those guys are going to be beating you anyway... (especially if you don't buy slicks in Stock class) even if you've broken a few arbitrary class rules (ie, wheel width restrictions when a class already has tire width restrictions, no aftermarket pedals in stock class, etc).
And it's not like they don't ALL have walls full of those 5-dollar trophies.
There is a big difference between breaking a rule like those involving suspension bushings, which affect driving feel, versus someone hiding a boost controller and an aftermarket ECU that gives them a major advantage.
And it's not like they don't ALL have walls full of those 5-dollar trophies.
There is a big difference between breaking a rule like those involving suspension bushings, which affect driving feel, versus someone hiding a boost controller and an aftermarket ECU that gives them a major advantage.
11-25-07, 12:46 PM
#31
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Bushings can make more of a difference than just feel, and in stock class the only limit to tire width is what you can shoe-horn on the rim, so a 225/45/15 on a 15x7 is an advantage compared to that on a 15x6.
Sure some of those things like a smaller wheel, pedals and whatever are usually fine, the point is where do you draw the line? Are seats ok if they enable you to drive better and go faster? How about if they're 5lbs lighter, how about 10 or 20? You see, it can be a slipperly slope and you really shouldn't be asking your competetors to be the ones to draw the line, because there's already a well defined line that's the same for everyone.
You make the point about not winning, but what about that other guy on street tires whose playing by the rules and that your now beating, is it fair to him?
Sure some of those things like a smaller wheel, pedals and whatever are usually fine, the point is where do you draw the line? Are seats ok if they enable you to drive better and go faster? How about if they're 5lbs lighter, how about 10 or 20? You see, it can be a slipperly slope and you really shouldn't be asking your competetors to be the ones to draw the line, because there's already a well defined line that's the same for everyone.
You make the point about not winning, but what about that other guy on street tires whose playing by the rules and that your now beating, is it fair to him?
11-25-07, 02:38 PM
#32
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I'm checking out mazdaspeed now. I know that I will be starting out slow with the mods to the car as the all mighty dollar is the guiding factor. The first things I'll do are any mods that don't cost me anything.
Things like breaks will get upgraded as I replace them. Right now the breaks are good so I don't see replacing them just to spend money. When i burn them up I will of course go to a performance upgrade. The same holds true with other systems on the car like shocks and clutches.
I might budget for a set of bushings as this is a 19 year old car and I'm sure they could use replacing anyway.
I will have to do some research on what putting in a different seat and wheel will do to the class that I can run in. I want to be able to run as stock as i can, as I just don't have the money to compete with the big boys.
This will be my first time doing autocross and I want to get into it more to learn how to drive and racing against myself and improving my own times. I not worried at this point about beating anyone buy myself.
I downloaded the SOLO 2 book and have been reading through it. The last thing I want to do is upgrade myself into a class I can't afford to compete in.
Things like breaks will get upgraded as I replace them. Right now the breaks are good so I don't see replacing them just to spend money. When i burn them up I will of course go to a performance upgrade. The same holds true with other systems on the car like shocks and clutches.
I might budget for a set of bushings as this is a 19 year old car and I'm sure they could use replacing anyway.
I will have to do some research on what putting in a different seat and wheel will do to the class that I can run in. I want to be able to run as stock as i can, as I just don't have the money to compete with the big boys.
This will be my first time doing autocross and I want to get into it more to learn how to drive and racing against myself and improving my own times. I not worried at this point about beating anyone buy myself.
I downloaded the SOLO 2 book and have been reading through it. The last thing I want to do is upgrade myself into a class I can't afford to compete in.
11-25-07, 03:05 PM
#33
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Which club do you plan to run with? If you run the SCCA events at Bremerton/Packwood you'll need to take SCCA rules into account and you're much more boxed into ES/STS2/CSP. If you'd rather do minor upgrades and still have fun you should think about running the Bremerton events with BSCC. You would run in the 'Sports C' (SC) class, which allows some minor modifications somewhat like a cross between SCCA 'stock' and ST, except r-compound tires are allowed.
My car is set up about half-way to CSP rules, but I'd not be very competitive in the local SCCA CSP field with that setup. With r-compounds I do fairly well in the BSCC SC field, and I haven't even touched the exhaust yet other than replacing the main cat. Good suspension setup is the key.
If you haven't already, you should check in on the WWSCC board too.
My car is set up about half-way to CSP rules, but I'd not be very competitive in the local SCCA CSP field with that setup. With r-compounds I do fairly well in the BSCC SC field, and I haven't even touched the exhaust yet other than replacing the main cat. Good suspension setup is the key.
If you haven't already, you should check in on the WWSCC board too.
11-25-07, 03:18 PM
#34
STS2 will definitely be the most competitive for anyone on a budget. A fellow RX-7 guy won STS2 a year or so ago.
The difference between street tires and R-compounds is MASSIVE (think 5+ seconds on a 60 second course). I've never liked the idea of stock classes using R-compounds, since stock should be more focused on entry level setups.
A set of R-compounds will set you back atleast $500 in addition to a set of wheels. Street tire classes are more 'run what you brung'
The difference between street tires and R-compounds is MASSIVE (think 5+ seconds on a 60 second course). I've never liked the idea of stock classes using R-compounds, since stock should be more focused on entry level setups.
A set of R-compounds will set you back atleast $500 in addition to a set of wheels. Street tire classes are more 'run what you brung'
11-25-07, 03:27 PM
#35
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Every class but ST allows (grooved) slicks.
Safety equipment will NOT slow you down in any class. It will make you "faster" because it's much easier to drive when the driver is secured.
No one is going to care if your steering wheel isn't within 1" of stock size. The stock size is HUGE anyway, and it's unfair that the rules don't take that into account. Besides, 350 mm is within 1.5" of stock, anyway.
Also, no one is going to care if you replaced your bushings or mounts unless you just won a National event, or your region is full of ********. They'd have to do a pretty close inspection to notice the bushings are different, and they'd just about have to pull the car apart to inspect the mounts (unless they're urethane/solid mounts).
As for aftermarket seats, some cars have much, much better stock seats, and you can't install harnesses (which are allowed in Stock according to some people I've spoken to, but I'm not sure) on a lot of FC seats, so it really seems unfair to prohibit aftermarket seats, so long as you've got some sort of appropriate ballast for the difference in stock class (which is about 10 pounds from stock).
Safety equipment will NOT slow you down in any class. It will make you "faster" because it's much easier to drive when the driver is secured.
No one is going to care if your steering wheel isn't within 1" of stock size. The stock size is HUGE anyway, and it's unfair that the rules don't take that into account. Besides, 350 mm is within 1.5" of stock, anyway.
Also, no one is going to care if you replaced your bushings or mounts unless you just won a National event, or your region is full of ********. They'd have to do a pretty close inspection to notice the bushings are different, and they'd just about have to pull the car apart to inspect the mounts (unless they're urethane/solid mounts).
As for aftermarket seats, some cars have much, much better stock seats, and you can't install harnesses (which are allowed in Stock according to some people I've spoken to, but I'm not sure) on a lot of FC seats, so it really seems unfair to prohibit aftermarket seats, so long as you've got some sort of appropriate ballast for the difference in stock class (which is about 10 pounds from stock).
11-25-07, 04:22 PM
#36
My finger smells.
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Checking out the WWSCC board. It does look that the BSCC rules are a bit more lenient than SCCA.
Right now I'm going to focus on making the changes that I want regardless of autocross rules. I know there are a number of things I want to upgrade, seats, steering wheel, breaks, bushings, strut bars, improved intake and exhaust as well as others. If I find that I can't race in one class, then I'm sure that I can race in another. Nothing that I can think of is going to make such huge difference that I think it will matter. Most of the changes that I want to make, I would think that any driver would want to do. A lot of them would be for comfort or style and some are just replacing 20 year old wore out parts.
Right now I'm going to focus on making the changes that I want regardless of autocross rules. I know there are a number of things I want to upgrade, seats, steering wheel, breaks, bushings, strut bars, improved intake and exhaust as well as others. If I find that I can't race in one class, then I'm sure that I can race in another. Nothing that I can think of is going to make such huge difference that I think it will matter. Most of the changes that I want to make, I would think that any driver would want to do. A lot of them would be for comfort or style and some are just replacing 20 year old wore out parts.
11-25-07, 04:47 PM
#37
in other words you really weren't trying to build an autocross car that was competitive. I kinda thought this would happen which is why i didn't mention anything about possible classes. Make sure you're car is tuned and running well before you beat on it otherwise it will be another nice looking lawn ornament.
11-25-07, 05:48 PM
#39
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Bushings can make more of a difference than just feel, and in stock class the only limit to tire width is what you can shoe-horn on the rim, so a 225/45/15 on a 15x7 is an advantage compared to that on a 15x6.
Sure some of those things like a smaller wheel, pedals and whatever are usually fine, the point is where do you draw the line? Are seats ok if they enable you to drive better and go faster? How about if they're 5lbs lighter, how about 10 or 20? You see, it can be a slipperly slope and you really shouldn't be asking your competetors to be the ones to draw the line, because there's already a well defined line that's the same for everyone.
You make the point about not winning, but what about that other guy on street tires whose playing by the rules and that your now beating, is it fair to him?
Sure some of those things like a smaller wheel, pedals and whatever are usually fine, the point is where do you draw the line? Are seats ok if they enable you to drive better and go faster? How about if they're 5lbs lighter, how about 10 or 20? You see, it can be a slipperly slope and you really shouldn't be asking your competetors to be the ones to draw the line, because there's already a well defined line that's the same for everyone.
You make the point about not winning, but what about that other guy on street tires whose playing by the rules and that your now beating, is it fair to him?
Stock basically gives the advantage to whoever has the widest stock wheels among each class. OTOH, having wider wheels with the maximum allowed tire width would be a slight disadvantage because of increased weight, but personally I'd rather buy a set of 17X8s since I could use a wider range of tires than 17X7.5, should I so choose to eventually move up into STX or STU (versus STS2).
Hell, in stock I think you're technically allowed to get whatever wheels you want as long as you don't change the size and change the offset less than .25", meaning you could get magnesium wheels that cost more than the car, while you're still technically not allowed to remove the stock tow hook...
And by your logic, it's OK for someone to drive a base Miata and beat the pants off someone with a GXL FC (with equal setups) simply because they're both in E Stock, but it's not OK for that person in the FC to have a few technically illegal mods that don't give him any distinct advantage (ie, urethane bushings to replace the stock ones which have fallen apart, and stainless steel brake lines, since both are cheaper than OEM replacements).
Ideally, each model in each class should have a few allowances. ie, a seat (and ballast) for cars that don't have holes in the headrest, or a steering wheel and appropriate spacer for cars with Ginormous steering wheels that are way too far from the driver.
I'm not suggesting that people should cheat, just that they should consider the spirit of the rules and whether or not it's fair to their car when making questionable mods.
And if someone bitches, you can always go up to STS2...
11-25-07, 06:07 PM
#40
Lives on the Forum
The point is there's one set of rules and there's no wiggle room in them. If no one follows the rules then there's not much point in having them in the first place. I'm not a big stickler for 100% legality if it's not something that'll make difference in performance, but I race in SM2 because that's where my mods have put me, even though I'd be better suited for STS2 or CSP. I don't think the FC is eligible for STU or STX, at least not the last time I checked.
There's always going to be one or two hot cars in a given class, that's just the nature of things. Other cars can be competetive locally, but you can't expect to be able to race in whatever you want and automatically be a potential frontrunner.
It may just be fun for you, but there's plenty of people who take it very seriously.
There's always going to be one or two hot cars in a given class, that's just the nature of things. Other cars can be competetive locally, but you can't expect to be able to race in whatever you want and automatically be a potential frontrunner.
It may just be fun for you, but there's plenty of people who take it very seriously.
11-25-07, 06:13 PM
#41
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
I think the ST classes only exclude specific cars, and you wouldn't want to move up to the other ones because you'd be at a major disadvantage in terms of engine and tire size (max in STU is 275 all around for two-wheel drive cars)... I wouldn't even consider STX until I have a turbo engine.
11-25-07, 06:59 PM
#42
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in other words you really weren't trying to build an autocross car that was competitive. I kinda thought this would happen which is why i didn't mention anything about possible classes. Make sure you're car is tuned and running well before you beat on it otherwise it will be another nice looking lawn ornament.
Last edited by mindfungus; 11-25-07 at 07:10 PM.
11-25-07, 07:08 PM
#43
My finger smells.
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I'd like to see if we can get some of the locals together in Dec for a small meet. Drop by and let us know.
When you say you've messed up your class, what class do you race in? If your not currently in a class what class would you qualify for?
11-25-07, 08:36 PM
#45
I find that for a overall fun car- set it up the way you'd like and enter into the novice class untill you get the hang of things. Then place into the class your car fits into. I know its not going to give you much of an advantage, but your car will be more enjoyable all round. I enjoy autocrossing at Bremerton as its pretty relaxed overall.
As far as setup:
First and foremost: drive the car and get used to it. Worry about being competitive after the first year of autocross.
First get to a healthy baseline of course, fluids, filters, bushings, brake pads, anything that needs to be fixed.
Strut tower brace(s). Corksport makes good products.
Consider filling the voids in the chassis w/ a polyurethane foam. <<<HOW TO LINK>>>
Then I'd say full exhaust for overall driving pleasure. (racing beat header + borla catback is a good combo)
Racing Beat springs and Koni struts. Great for street and autocross.
Set of quality tires. I'd say get some high performance/max performance all season tires as slicks are not allowed in the novice class.
Down the road, consider Rtek 2.0 so you can tune the engine.
I know others will disagree with some of my comments, but for a fun car that will see mostly street use, its best to stay practical and focus on that above what class the car will fit into. Above all, with autocross in this region, it boils down to drivers skill more than aftermarket parts. Of course a healthy car is important too.
I say this with first hand experiance as I participate at autocross events at Bremerton frequently.
As far as setup:
First and foremost: drive the car and get used to it. Worry about being competitive after the first year of autocross.
First get to a healthy baseline of course, fluids, filters, bushings, brake pads, anything that needs to be fixed.
Strut tower brace(s). Corksport makes good products.
Consider filling the voids in the chassis w/ a polyurethane foam. <<<HOW TO LINK>>>
Then I'd say full exhaust for overall driving pleasure. (racing beat header + borla catback is a good combo)
Racing Beat springs and Koni struts. Great for street and autocross.
Set of quality tires. I'd say get some high performance/max performance all season tires as slicks are not allowed in the novice class.
Down the road, consider Rtek 2.0 so you can tune the engine.
I know others will disagree with some of my comments, but for a fun car that will see mostly street use, its best to stay practical and focus on that above what class the car will fit into. Above all, with autocross in this region, it boils down to drivers skill more than aftermarket parts. Of course a healthy car is important too.
I say this with first hand experiance as I participate at autocross events at Bremerton frequently.
11-25-07, 08:45 PM
#46
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That's basically what I did, do what I want to the car and class it accordingly. If it's just for fun then you shouldn't mind that you're loosing in a fast class anyway right, so then there's no need to cheat in a lower class.
11-25-07, 09:53 PM
#47
Read the driving techniques in this site. May not be the best out there, but definatly a good place to start! Look under 'Tech Articals' for "Driving Techniques"
www.turnfast.com
First and best place to be a fast at any course is the driver, not the car.
www.turnfast.com
First and best place to be a fast at any course is the driver, not the car.
11-25-07, 09:55 PM
#48
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I find that for a overall fun car- set it up the way you'd like and enter into the novice class untill you get the hang of things. Then place into the class your car fits into....
I know others will disagree with some of my comments, but for a fun car that will see mostly street use, its best to stay practical and focus on that above what class the car will fit into.
I know others will disagree with some of my comments, but for a fun car that will see mostly street use, its best to stay practical and focus on that above what class the car will fit into.
11-26-07, 07:33 AM
#49
Every class but ST allows (grooved) slicks.
Safety equipment will NOT slow you down in any class. It will make you "faster" because it's much easier to drive when the driver is secured.
No one is going to care if your steering wheel isn't within 1" of stock size. The stock size is HUGE anyway, and it's unfair that the rules don't take that into account. Besides, 350 mm is within 1.5" of stock, anyway.
Also, no one is going to care if you replaced your bushings or mounts unless you just won a National event, or your region is full of ********. They'd have to do a pretty close inspection to notice the bushings are different, and they'd just about have to pull the car apart to inspect the mounts (unless they're urethane/solid mounts).
As for aftermarket seats, some cars have much, much better stock seats, and you can't install harnesses (which are allowed in Stock according to some people I've spoken to, but I'm not sure) on a lot of FC seats, so it really seems unfair to prohibit aftermarket seats, so long as you've got some sort of appropriate ballast for the difference in stock class (which is about 10 pounds from stock).
Safety equipment will NOT slow you down in any class. It will make you "faster" because it's much easier to drive when the driver is secured.
No one is going to care if your steering wheel isn't within 1" of stock size. The stock size is HUGE anyway, and it's unfair that the rules don't take that into account. Besides, 350 mm is within 1.5" of stock, anyway.
Also, no one is going to care if you replaced your bushings or mounts unless you just won a National event, or your region is full of ********. They'd have to do a pretty close inspection to notice the bushings are different, and they'd just about have to pull the car apart to inspect the mounts (unless they're urethane/solid mounts).
As for aftermarket seats, some cars have much, much better stock seats, and you can't install harnesses (which are allowed in Stock according to some people I've spoken to, but I'm not sure) on a lot of FC seats, so it really seems unfair to prohibit aftermarket seats, so long as you've got some sort of appropriate ballast for the difference in stock class (which is about 10 pounds from stock).
Build your car according to the rules and your budget. Make sure everything is reliable as possible first before modding. There is nothing wrong with bringing out a car that is completely stock. When you can't improve your times any more, and you know it is due to poor braking or tires that slip to early, then upgrade. You will learn a lot more about the car and what the mods actually do for you.
Have fun with it. Competitive driving can be a great time. If you see any other FC guys out there, ask them what is run by the local guys. You said you aren't a mechanic, so make some connections for local tech support too. Club racers usually work on most everything themselves.
Josh
11-26-07, 11:07 AM
#50
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
I'm simply saying people shouldn't feel forced to move up a class because of one or two minor mods.
(for example, I would imagine DTTS eliminators aren't technically allowed, but it would be unfair to require someone driving a 20 year-old car to spend $600 to replace the OEM parts)
(for example, I would imagine DTTS eliminators aren't technically allowed, but it would be unfair to require someone driving a 20 year-old car to spend $600 to replace the OEM parts)
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