Wankel7

I have heard that RA seals take a little extra time to break into used housings....but new housings ?

How about stock seals?

Atkins?

James

sunshine

iTrader: (3)

Big thread about RA seals:
https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-performance-77/rotary-aviation-seals-%2Afeedback%2A-383715/

jreynish

iTrader: (2)

Here is the way I see it, Mazda Spent more money than most companies that are making their own seals are worth, Mazda I am sure spent well over a couple of million (at least) in R&D alone, their stock 2pc Mazda Seals aren't that expensive. So I would trust them more than anybody else. No matter what!

Wankel7

I just read on that RA thread that the RA springs are not good for higher than stock applications. Use the OEM springs.

I tend to agree with you on the stock seals....still teatering...

BDoty311

From what I understand, Rotary Aviation decided to make their own apex seals because they felt they could do better. The seals are designed for longivity and durability because the are designed to go into rotary-engined airplanes.

jreynish

iTrader: (2)

Though I tend to agree with you that they are "intended" for rotary aviation use. does not mean that they are Manufactured to the FAA (or equivalent) standards.... For many reasons (too many to list and quite irrellevant) Those seals all though may "work" I highly doubt that they work as well nor do they have the R&D that mazda had. But in the end try what you want but.... I would choose OEM again and again, I had RA seal kit and bought an OEM set of apex seals and spring anyways.

Wankel7

I am really leaning towards the stock seals. However, I really like the rebuild kit that RA offers.

I guess I could by a RA kit and Stock seals. Then, just sell the RA apex seals/springs. As long as I don't open then up I am sure I can find a buyer if I knock some off the price.

I just called them and they will not split up their kits.

James

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

mazda made 3 piece seals, enough said about the R+D and what their motives were for designs.

as that thread stated, i have yet to see a RA seal fail. anyone have pics?


i'm not dissing stock seals, they work as good as any but as for being better, i doubt that.

patman

iTrader: (3)

ya know, im really tired of you guys that answer every question with "mazda researched it sooo much, they are always right"

Bullshit.

you think just because they spent more time and money on it means that no one can ever improve on their design for less? what a stupid notion. for one thing, anyone designing seals now has the result of all mazda's r&d to look back on...they look at the stock seals that have been run for 18 years and say.."hey...heres what wasnt quite right, lets fix it"

another point is that if mazda had done all this r&d perfectly, why did they do dumb **** like the sub zero start tank?

Or how about this, if they knew it all, why does everyone think the renisis is such a big freakin deal?
The advantage of the renisis is that they fixed a very simple flaw...they removed some of the port timing overlap by making the exhaust ports axial. wow, didnt take a genius to figure that out, so why didnt they do it then?

the answer, of course, is that mazda didnt know it all, and still doesnt. The wankel engine in general is a relatively unresearched animal, and there are all kinds of ways that it could be improved upon.


now that i'm done with my tangent... Stock seals are good (2pc), Atkins seals have a really good reputation, and RA, IMHO are slightly better than either one.
I have used all three, all worked fine. I just like the RA b/c they are cheap, and have survived some pretty rediculous abuse in my TII.

pat

jreynish

iTrader: (2)

Well, How long have the RA seals been out. Yes RA seals have failed, there have been a couple Talk to Maxthe7man for one. And mazda no longer make 3pc seals they are 2pc for a couple of years now.


Well that is your opinion.

For one, Mazda Has not released their R&D on their Apex Seal design or metalurgy, infact they haven't done that for the Rotor Housings either yet. There is a Russian company that bought the rights, that is about it. So how do companies get to use the R&D that mazda did? Other than simply pulling out some measuring devices and dimensioning them. Yes somone can add to Mazda's R&D but has yet to be done, because no-one has had access to Mazda's R&D documents.

Did it work as it was designed to do? Yes... do you have the R&D documents and reasons they made it?... doubt it. So I don't think you are qualified to say that it was a bad Idea... neither am I for that matter unless I (or you) have access to all the pertinent Data.

alright I am guessing that you are better than mazda, So now do me a favor construct by not using any of mazda's dimensions, for port placement, and create a better port design, that mazda has not yet already done or tried. Oh wait... you most likely will not be able to.

best statement you have made thus far, yes it isn't perfect neither is the piston engine which has been arround for some time longer. and how do you think they improve on it? oh wait you knew it was commming spending millions on R&D.

Well I cannot comment based on your experiences because they are not my own.... So i won't. However The RA seals are harder than stock, and the Atkins are softer than stock, the Atkins have been used.. and have failed, the Stock Mazda 3 and 2 pc seals have been used and failed. The RA seals have gone through some growing pains. they definitely need some more as far as my opinion goes. The seals are stronger than the rotor material itself even where the apex seal grouve is hardned. That is the downfall of the RA seals IMHO.


Now as for the RA rebuild seal kit. You can buy the kit and exclude the rotor seals that is what I did, (However I had already bought apex seals).
So you can purchase the "soft" seals for the engine rebuild and even the rest of the side seals... etc and simply purchase the stock pieces for the apex seals and springs. this is easily done just talk to them about it. They are good people.

Now please note that I am not attacking any company, nor am I trying to discredit them, as far as I am concerned it is always good to have more people involved in the rotary comunity.

BDoty311

Mazda said themselves that the sub-zero start was pointless.

jreynish

iTrader: (2)

True this was years after the fact, and at the time they obviously thought that it would be worth while to deveolop and implement. Otherwise they would not have done it and saved themselves and us some money.

BDoty311

I believe that is part of Pat's post. They R&D'd something that was pointless. So potentially, they could have messed up Researching and Developing other things, ie apex seals.

jreynish

iTrader: (2)

Yup, I understood that but the R&D of apex seals and the rotary engine for that matter is on Going and never ending with patents being applied for every couple of months pertaining to their Mazda Rotary engine, check your local pattent office for this proof. Now you see what I am talking about that mazda has spent and is still spending millions of dollars to improve on things, why do you think they switched to the 2pc seal design and infact the metalurgy was changed from the originla according to patnents at the patent office. That was because they R&D and applied a new and better design.
Where as the R&D on the cold start system ended after the production of that car.

patman

iTrader: (3)

good job, you answered all of my rhetorical questions.
however, i think you may have missed the point.

I was only posing those questions as examples to illustrate the fact that mazda is not infallible, and that despite all the millions they may have spent on R&D, they may have missed things, and that someone with some metallurgical skills could very possibly produce some better seals. Its not about understanding all about the tests mazda did, its about understanding the final product and its flaws.

The thing is, there are a few people on this forum that shoot down any new product on the basis of "mazda knows all". That is really a very ignorant statement to make. To say that no other apex design is any good, just because mazda did more research, is ludicrous.

Now, it looks from your later posts like you actually have some reasonable ideas behind your seal preferences. In that case, why not just state them from the start, instead of spewing silly crap like that?

BlaCkPlaGUE

Just curious, but why didn't you get the FD housings, they have some kind of coating on the inner housing for less resistance, and less OIL injectors required for apex seal lubrication. I have been told by a few people here that they will fit, and they don't cost a whole lot more than the TII housings.. Or am I off the ball here and have been 'misinformed'?

jreynish

iTrader: (2)

the reason I said that is because everyone must do R&D to make or redesign a part. And the person whom does the most R&D and the most tests Unless they are totally useless (which I choose to assume that Mazda isn't) will produce the best product, and since Mazda has done a fair amount of R&D they have the know how to do things right, whether they do it or not is a different sotry. That is the line that we seem to be arguing about, the thing is that mazda has the know how, but they choose not to implement them based on viability, profitability... etc. so if someone can make that very same product... good on them, but as far as Apex seals go i Do honestly think that mazda has the ones we need they make carbon seals, the stock seals changed metalurgy and to a 2pc design... and many others. They even offer P-Port housings... not saying that is difficult to do... but just saying that I personally think they did it right when it comes to seals.

jreynish

iTrader: (2)

Nope you are right, but in the end the difference is hugely minimal if you can get some cheap then get them if not I wouldn't worry about it... the benefits in no way outweigh the cost if you know what I mean.

Wankel7

$85 Bucks extra for a 3rd gen housing.

patman

iTrader: (3)

well, that's where we disagree. the person who does the most research will not necessarily make the best product. it is a better chance that they will, but not set in stone. you cant assert that its the best product just based on that. especially not when the products are readily available, and real qualities can be measured.

pat

jreynish

iTrader: (2)

well I guess I can agree to disagree.

Jeffrey

patman

iTrader: (3)

haha ok me too.

pat

Wankel7

Awww....now that was tooo cute

Yeah, the ONLY reason I am getting new housings is because I was able to haul my car down the drag strip and qualified for Mazda Comp....

Gotta love teh discounts....I honeslty think that the Mazda comp program is the best Manufacture support around...

James

BlaCkPlaGUE

If im going to spend the kind of money for new housings, I'll spend the extra 85$ for that 'little bit' of performance, in fact, what the hell am I saying, not really performance, but reliability.

Wankel7

I need more info on it I suppose to consider the cost...

I will call Mazda Motor Sports tomorrow and get back on it....