Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

That's another variable and one that everyone (including myself) generally ignores. Blade design has a huge impact on fan performance. Even a simple change like adding a "ring" around the blades can increase airflow dramatically if that ring is tight fitting into a shroud (like the GM fans I use). If you look at the GM fans, they even have a strange blade position with a few equally spaced blades, then a few that are spaced closer together. Presumably this makes the fan much more efficient but I don't know enough about fan design (as most people don't either) to comment. Thus I left that out of my writeup as to not add inaccuracies. Really the main myth that I want to bust are the massive HP claims and whatnot.

Honestly though, does it really matter how many CFM the fan flows? Who cares, as long as it works....

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

Damn bro, you are one HARD headed dude...

It depends, MOST of those brands have their cheap units, and their high end units; at most the high end units will give you their ratings at differents voltages.

The cheap ones will rate their PEAK watts at 14.4volts!


ONLY a FOOL will buy an amp based on a 14.4 volts rate; and you sir seems to be one of them. You want some proof? Taken fromt one the product websites that YOU mentioned:

SPECIFICATIONS

CEA-2006 Power Rating
• CEA-2006 Power Rating (40hm@14.4V = 1%THD+N), S/N 80dBA (Ref. 1W into 4Ohm): 60W x 5

RMS Power (at 12V,20Hz-200Hz)
• Per Channel into 4Ohms (·1% THD+N) : 45W x 5
• Per channel into 4 ohms : 45W x 5


http://www.alpine-usa.com/US-en/prod...&lang=en&tab=F

So, back to you saying that I am wrong...

Back in the days we used to measure the watts output before clipping on our amps; the ones we used produce over 30% total watts over the rated number at 12V.

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Aaron Cake. I was just re-assuring myself. I wouldn't want to fry the FD alt yet, but soon since it is one of the weak links in the S4.

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

It gets better, if you use a stand alone ECU; the ecu will turn on and off the efan as dictated by the program\map\user.

NZConvertible

It's for noise reduction. The odd blade spacing prevents resonances at certain revs. This is also why some twin-fan set-ups use different blade counts on each fan, like the FD's (one 4-blade, one 5-blade). Noise reduction is also the most likely reason why the S5 has a 10-blade fan instead of the S4's 8-blade.

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

I agree, as long as it goes both ways

For some reason, I normally see a one side argument; but not the other.

NZConvertible

Actually all of the ones I looked at had CEA-2006 ratings. Find me a "cheap" amp from a quality brand that isn't.

Why would I care how much power it makes at 12V? The only reason for me to look at power ratings is to compare with other units, so a standard voltage is necessary. Only a fool would make comparisons at different voltages. My car spends most of its time closer to 14.4V than 12V anyway...

90A still doesn't produce 900W in a car, so your info is still wrong somewhere. You've posted so much incorrect electrical info so far, I'm not going to trust anything else you post on the topic...

You don't need a $1000 EMS to do that, you can do that with a $20 voltage switch kit. All you can do is make the engine run hotter than normal though.

That's because the BS claims all come from one side. Nobody's making unfounded claims of advantages of the stock fan.

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

So you are a newbie at this then?

You realize CEA-2006 started a year ago, right?

BTW - I do consider SONY a cheap car audio brand, among others that you mentioned.

WRONG!

When you are blasting your 50amp sound sytem, AC, and running your headlights at night; I guarantee you that you are NOT seeing 14.4 volts; not even 13v!!

Did you read what I posted? How about if you add a 30% to 900 RMS Watts; do you still think that 90 amps are that far from the truth?


Like everything you have posted is correct, read above if you don't think you are wrong.


Show me where I said it could only be done by an EMS?

BTW - Don't really see how you make the engine run hotter than normal.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

How does A/C draw more electric current? The blower fan?

And FWIW, I can run every electrical system on my FC (which includes two Mercury Mystique E-fans) aside from the rear defrost and still pull 13.5V to my re-located battery. On only an FD alt. I don't see what you're getting at here.

Any what does ANY of this have to do with E-fans/clutch fans? Let it go and let the thread progress or die man.

CyberPitz

They are on their own personal vendettas. I say let them duke it out, and we praise the victor.

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

Do you have an aftermarket sound sytem? Have you measured the voltage when your sound sytem is at mid-high volume?

And please don't tell me you are running a 20 amp sound system.

It evolved to it, and you are actually part of it!

On any case, its about the amps demand on the FC electrical system; it doesn't matter if its from an efan or from a sound system.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Enough with the off topic posts. If people want to argue stereo/amp wattage ratings, there is an Interior/Exterior/Audio forum on this site. This topic is for e-fans, and nothing else.

If the off topic posts continue I will begin deleting them and close the thread if necessary.

We have not had a real e-fan thread in a long time, which is why this thread has been left open but if it becomes too much of a pain in the butt, I'll close it.

Thanks.

NZConvertible

You implied it even if you didn't mean to. Nobody was talking about EMS's, so what what was your point? Why even bring them up?

Being able to set the temp the fan runs is another advantage often claimed for e-fans, but you can't make the engine run any cooler than stock without taking out the thermostat, which is just dumb. So you can only make the engine run hotter (sometimes) by turning the fan on later. Where's the advantage in that?

RotaMan99

Your talking about the clutch fan right? Since I already know you know that CFM rating and running amp rating are very important when picking e-fans.

Agree Completly.

Even better for members without $$$, is to use the stock thermo sensor and a simple voltage switch. click on the link in my sig "Wiring an e-fan" and scroll to the bottom.

At idle, probubly right, while driving, if you have the correct alternator installed, you should see atleast 13.5v. Isn't this what capacitors are used for in large stereo systems? To help combat the large power demand for the AMP? I don't know much about that area.

Hell Yes! Atleast keep one bitching thread open! Maybe rename it to something like, Electric Bitching Thread, children only!

Just kidding, threads turn into wars very easily unfortunatly. Everyone has their own opinions on stuff. One of the problems I see is people giving right advice, but others not seeing a use for whatever it is so they bitch about why this, and why that when they could have just left everything alone. O well. Its the net for ya

RotaMan99

Your right, I miss read your post.

Since I miss read your post, my disagreement posts are irrelivent.

I do agree thats its not enough to give a **** about. Up to around 1hp gain, if ANY. There are many benefits to the clutch fan as well as the e-fan. For one, water pump slipage due to the airpump being pulled off and the clutch fan being on the same pulley. I have seen to many times dual belt pulleys not helping in this area.

NZConvertible

Many times? Because the sheer number of people who appear to be succussfully running that set-up would indicate it'll work fine if it's done right. If it really was a problem they're be lots of "dual belts didn't solve my slipping problem" threads, but there are virtually none. I've never had a belt slippage problem in the 3-4 years since fitting one. I would guess that in cases of this happening crappy belts or improper tensioning would be to blame.

I know that an e-fan alleviates the needs for dual belts (been there, done that), but a pulley is a lot cheaper than a proper e-fan set-up.

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

You are the one implying things here my friend...

Why bring it up? because that's how I have my efan configured.


I never said run cooler, and you did said "might make it run hotter"; unless the person wants to do that on purpose, I don't see it happening.

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

Voltage will drop below 13V even at high rpms, but we can talk about it on the car audio section, as I don't want to break any rules.

NZConvertible

And that would be what?

I never said you did.

Oh jeez... I did not say that. Unless you're actually quoting someone, don't use quotation marks! That's basic grammar, not to mention that it's incredibly rude to deliberately make it look like someone said something they didn't. If you're going to continue this, quote me properly and stop making stuff up, or STFU.

What I said was"you can only make the engine run hotter (sometimes) by turning the fan on later". The "sometimes" refers to the fact that this will only happen at low speed when the fan is required.

Actually most people do set their e-fans to run the engine hotter than with the stock fan. I regularly see people say their fan's come on between 190 and 200degF, which is much hotter than the engine runs at low load with the stock fan.

But my point (which you seem to have missed) was that the ability to set what temp an e-fan turns on and off is not an advantage over the stock fan. How could it be?

RotaMan99

Yes, many. Combination of different forums. Im not saying that a dual belt pulley WONT work. I have never had an issue my self but I havn't had a clutch fan on since I got the car.

There are a lot of rotary owners out there and lots of people that have tried dual belt pulley and have either had successful experience or not successful experience.

I could be an *** and say, no you did not say that and it looks like a blanketed statement, but I wont.

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

Saying that I was implying that the ONLY way of running temp control on an efan was by an EMS.


OK then, here is wat YOU wrote:
So if we go by what you said, should you STFU?!?!?

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

I'm talking about all the fans really. I don't know the CFM rating of the stock fan and I suspect it's hard to test as you would need to spin it at the appropriate RPM ratings, in the shroud, with a rad in front of it and then somehow measure air flow (maybe a magnehelic meter to measure pressure drop at a venturi?).

I don't know what the CFM rating is on the GM fans that I use, but I do know the current draw. I'm also not worried at all about the CFM rating because the fan works either way.

NZConvertible

So you saw a few people post about their problems. Why would anyone post if they didn't have problems? I guarantee you the succeses will greatly outnumber the failures, and the failures were most likely improper installation. Why else would it work on most cars and not others? The pump/belts/fan set-up is practically identical on every FC.

It was a direct cut-and-paste quote from post #114, so that's exactly what I said. You would indeed "be an ***" if you said otherwise.

I didn't imply that, I stated it. Big difference. Your post made that implication even though you obviously didn't intend to. Get over it, it's not that big a deal.

I deal with fans nearly every day in my job, so I know quite a bit about how airflow is measured and fans specs are obtained, and how easy it is to change the results by changing how those measurements are taken. The fans we use have to be tested using specific procedures so that accurate comparions can be made between different suppliers. AFAIK there's nothing like this for aftermarket automotive fans, so the airflows they claim need to be treated with a certain amount of skepticism. Two fans with similar ratings might perform differently in the same car because the manufacturers tested them differently.

If someone really did want to measure the stock fan's performance in-situ, the best way to do it would be with an air velocity meter. You'd need to take about 8-10 readings at even spacings across the radiator core and average them, then multiply by the core area. Getting a constant fan speed would be pretty tricky though. Maybe use a temporarily-mounted electric motor to drive it via a belt...

RotaMan99

So I saw just a few eh? Not really. I know for a fact that there is more success with them working then not, but I have also seen a lot of members on different forums post the issue. I know this is hard for you to understand since every engine works exactly the way your engine works.

Also, most of the time these are on high HP turboed cars where each engine has a different amount of HP. If the engine spins up to quick, the water pump could easily slip. Take a guess as to which side of the belt loosens up when you press the accelerator pedal and which side tightens up. Since there is a load on the alternator and that pulley is not free wheeling, the left side of the pulleys will be the side the belt loosen up on. The belt actually stretches which causes this. The amount the belt loosens can be an unseen amount but I have personally the belt get slightly looser then the other side. To you, I must not have the belt tight enough, or I installed the belts wrong.

RotaMan99

So getting back to the e-fan Topic.

I was just thinking. Which is not always a good thing. As seen above

Putting a E-fan on a shroud would cause the fan to run at a higher efficiency then putting it straight on the rad due to the increase surface area it is able to pull air through, correct? Not saying the conversion from electrical to mechanical but the amount of current it would consume plus the amount of CFM it would pull, since having it directly on the rad decreases the surface area, or the amount of gaps it can pull air through, which would limit the CFM, since the CFM rating is measured also by the amount of total surface area the fan can pull from, otherwise it would be at zero static pressure, open air.

Am I going off the deep end here and thinking stupid?