spikespencer

Ok, I have been racking my brains on this one for two weeks now. I have an S4 engine that was swapped into my car at some point in the last few years and I do not have much more history than what I have done to it. When I got it had terrible flooding problems so it has a fuel pump kill switch and an EGI kill switch (no idea why both were needed) so first thing I did was get the injectors cleaned, flowed, balanced, and rebuilt by Witchunter. I have had a ton of cooling system issues in the last couple of months but I finally had those fairly straightened out and the car had been running great for a few weeks now no problems except for a vacuum line that got unplugged for a short while (yes I checked those too).

So what happened I drive the 25 miles it takes me to get to work, I come out 9 hours after I park it and start it as I have the last few weeks. It does not start. I have the kill switches still so I deflood the car for a little while, still will not start. I kill the battery trying to make it start. So I come back with a fresh battery still will not start, same procedure. I am convinced this is not something I want to handle at my workplace so I get it towed back home. I pull the spark plugs that are soaked in fuel. So after I check to make sure I have good spark on all plugs I try the extreme deflooding steps in http://rx7.com/techarticles_unfloodFC.html of course replacing the ATF with engine oil. After attempting that a couple more time interspersed with a few battery charges I go out and get some starting fluid. Still not starting!

So to recap I have fuel, compression, good spark and I have tried getting it started with starting fluid with the fuel pump disconnected and the engine deflooded. WTF! I would be happy if I could get it to kick over even for a second or two under its own power but the good spark and compression will not even ignite the starting fluid and the plug wires are all correct. This is driving me insane what else could I be missing?

I am waiting for parts to fix the rear disc brakes on my GSL-SE so I would really like to get this one running soon.

~Spike~

arghx

iTrader: (3)

Push it and pop the clutch. Does it start then?

trooper001

iTrader: (7)

Read my mind. Pop start that sucker.

Pele

iTrader: (28)

I re-read your post twice...
You are sure you have good spark, but I didn't read where or how you tested for good spark...

Recap for me. How are you so sure that the spark is good?

KompressorLOgic

iTrader: (6)

sometimes on very extremly flooded vehicles i have been forced to resort to getting a tow rope and having soemoen help pull the vehicle around the block or pushing it with another car.

spikespencer

As far as the spark goes I took out each plug out and held it near a ground and 1-3 centimeter long blue spark leapt out. Keeping it away from the ground it lights alternating between the four points of the plug with a strong appearing blue spark. Is there a better test I can use? I have read other posts that had indicated they had a spark but it was not strong enough or was yellow instead of blue.

I guess I should try push starting it, I have been avoiding that because it is going to be really difficult to get it back up on the hill where I live if it does not work and dragging it might well require some modifications to the body to allow that.

barnett87rx7

iTrader: (1)

there are three hooks on the front to toe it with and two on the back if your worried

Pele

iTrader: (28)

No, that's an adequate test of spark.
If you're getting spark, then your CAS is working as well.

You're getting fuel, you're getting spark... Engine ran when parked, so compression is good.

What condition are your spark plugs in?

Have you looked for loose vacuum lines under the hood? An extreme vacuum leak may cause a fail to start.

spikespencer

Holy ****! That actually worked like a dream. I feel a bit stupid now for wasting everyone's time on something that simple. Thank you all for your suggestion. I guess it can still be a matter of getting a BFH to fix things even on a Rotary.

~Spike~

Pele

iTrader: (28)

What? The kick start?

spikespencer

Yeah of all things just pushing it down the hill it started up as though there never a problem (except a small cloud of smoke that it left behind)

Anyhow thanks Pele for the other troubleshooting ideas.

~Spike~

Pele

iTrader: (28)

No problem...

Question: Does it happen often?

spikespencer

Well it pretty much never happened once I had the injectors cleaned.

I push started it yesterday morning, drove to work and came out started up in .5 seconds of me turning the key.

Now this morning I go out and it will not start again, so I push start it again. I leave it to run for 7.5 minutes like I do every time I start it until it is at operating tempature. Idling Just fine. I start of towards work I slow down for the first turn and it stalls. I restart it a few times keeps stalling. I was 10 seconds away from being late to work this morning so I have not rechecked for vacuum lines that might have gotten disconnected this morning but this is getting annoying. I am not even sure if the problem I have now is related.

~Spike~

rs_smoked_you

Sounds like it may be time for a re build

arghx

iTrader: (3)

Put brand new plugs in. After a major flood they're never quite right, and just cleaning them isn't the same.

As for the stalling, well that could be any number of things.

spikespencer

Uh, the symptoms are not quite right for that I believe. Though I have been really wanting to swap in a turbo II setup. I am also half tempted to swap in a V8 for money's sake.

Yeah arghx I had to get to work the other day, or else I would have changed the oil and and the plugs. I will check the vacuum lines tomorrow and try again but at least the parts for my SE came in so I will be putting those on tomorrow morning and will not in dire straits for a running car.

~Spike~

ITSWILL

iTrader: (12)

yeah these things can be finicky about the spark plugs. Definitely change those and keep looking for a boost leak.

If you really do decide to go for a swap, I will say this, my ls1 starts every time and I never worry about it breaking down.

I had a few TII engines, seemed like I was pulling the car apart every week.

Pele

iTrader: (28)

Suggest a compression check.
Everyone says rebuild without hard numbers.

Who did you get your injectors cleaned by?

How's your fuel pressure? (Return line may be clogged or FPR may be faulty.)

When you pulled your plugs, what did they look like?

I believe you may be running really rich for some reason... Richer than normal.

spikespencer

I am going with Pele's troubleshooting ideas, but I will not have a chance until this weekend I think since I spent the whole morning putting the rear caliper on my SE and it has been raining since. I did start it again this morning and it started right up as though nothing was ever wrong. It died a little afterwards before it warmed it up to much, about 3 minutes. No vacuum lines missing/dissconnected though.

I had the injectors cleaned by Witchhunter, I actually live nearby his shop so I dropped by and had the works done to them. One injector was bad though so I replaced it and dropped it in as one of the secondaries. I am a little curious though since I started getting the 3600 RPM hesitation when I was driving back the other day.

I know there are plenty of advantages to V8's but now that I have been infected with the Rotary fever. A Turbo II setup is not something I plan to take lightly if I do it. In my experience though piston engines have so many more parts that can break and as long as you maintain Rotary engines most everyone I have ever talked to that has had one never had any problems with theirs. Take my SE for example I have 160k on it not a single engine problem just a few things not engine related that have never been replaced have worn down so I am going to have to replace the clutch and just took care of the brake pads and calipers.

I have to order new plugs since there is not a parts store that carries any decent ones through special order even and they said it would take 15 days for the special order too. I really do not get why considering there are so many RX7's out here. The only thing about getting new plugs is I am a little loath to spend anymore money on this engine if I am just going to replace it.

~Spike~

R.O.D

iTrader: (3)

as far as a tII swap it doesnt have to be pricey,
i got my engine for 1600
then i just need tii maf, map, ecu, and driveshaft from mazda trix that goes from [tii tranny] to
[N/A rear end] i kept the stock harness because a simi good used harness runs almosy
another $500+ or so, and dont even mention a new one!!!

turbo MAF from mazda or mazda trix is: "$947"
get one from napa, its almost half the price, still using mine from there, going into year 3 or 4

turbo map i did get from mazda trix: "$334"


drive shaft from turbo tranny to N/A rear: "$288"

and ecu u can find on here or ebay, or juck yard.
but it has to be for turbo

and all i did for the injectors is cut out a spot for the TII injectors guide bump
the guide bumb is different on the injectors from turbo engine to na,
the guide bumb is on one side for N/A and on the opposite for turbo

eveything else plug back in like it did for the old motor, almost exactly the same!


as far as ur situation now,
from what ive seen, and what ive learned myself from my own issues (in order of cheap to oh ****!)
-bad timing
-incorrect tps adjustment
-intake leaks
-bad grounds
-bad fuel pressure regulator
-malfunctioning Throttle position sensor
-old cracked or just generally crap plug wires
-crank angle sensor
-bad maf

may have missed some but this is just wat i know off hand

ITSWILL

iTrader: (12)

Did the people you have talked to have turbo motors, my guess is no. Not to bust ***** or anything but a TII engine is absolutely no where near as reliable as as say an ls1 or any ls series engine for that matter. A turbo engine of any kind it just an entirely different animal compared to a NA engine. This is especially true when it comes to a rotary engine, they don't deal well with detonation.


With that said I love rotary engines, especially turbo rotary engines. But I have no delusion of them being more reliable than say a GM ls engine or even less expensive for that matter. Good luck getting your car running better and I hope to see you doing a swap in the near future, the rx7 chassis is an excellent platform, it is just underpowered in NA form.

Don't forget the exciter wires for the alternator.

spikespencer

I started it one more time and it died after about 25 seconds when the accelerated startup cutout, so I switched thinking. I figured testing the AFM would not take too long since I had just checked all the vacuum lines for the 25 time. So now I am pretty sure it is an AFM issue. I am sure that it is plugged in just fine, but after testing everything in the manual it seems the E2 to VS terminals should have 50-500 ohms. Sure enough the terminals do unless the measuring plate is open which those two terminals should stay at 50-500 ohms, yet they switch to infinite resistance with the measuring plate open. So as I understand it the classic case of the fuel pump cutting out right after the measuring plate opens.

I am not really looking to replace the AFM if I can help it. Does anyone know if it has to be replaced or is there a way to fix it/someone who rebuilds them? I just looked and I guess I could get another one since they seem to be about $65 for a N/A. About $300 for TII.

A couple people I know had Turbo's and granted there is more stuff on the engine plus more presure on the parts therefore stuff does break a bit more, but it seems like it is the people that are always trying to mod them to death that have the most issues N/A or Turbo. I know that V8's are pretty darn reliable, my truck is at the 260,000 mark with little maintainence and nothing really wrong. I will be looking into to a swap.

~Spike~

satch

iTrader: (1)

If your fuel pump is actually cutting out and you want to prevent this from happening you could take a small lengthed jumper wire of about three inches or so and jumper two wires in the circuit opening relay which governs the fuel pump. There is a Brown wire in this relay which comes from the AFM and for the fuel pump to run properly when the engine is running over 500 rpm the Brown wire requires a ground signal to be present and this signal is provided by the AFM. If you jumper the solid Black wire to the Brown wire it will supply a ground signal to the Brown wire even if the AFM doesn't want to. If the jumper wire is used the fuel pump turns on w/key to on so be conscious of this as it could lead to a flooding issue if you leave the key to on for some reason when the car is not running. Again, solid Black to Brown and don't confuse the solid Black with the Black/White wire which is also present in the relay as well. The relay is yellow and located next to the steering column (to the right of it just under the dash).

spikespencer

I jumpered the fuel pump and confirmed that it is the AFM. So new spark plugs an oil change and new AFM I should be back up and running reliably. It seemed to idle smoother with the fuel pump jumpered I wonder if it has been going out for a while.

~Spike~

satch

iTrader: (1)

The problem might not be within the AFM but the wire(s) that runs from the AFM to the Circuit Opening relay. I would try something else to see if it was the wiring external to the AFM. I would remove the jumper at the relay and go to the fuel check connector in the engine bay and there you will find two wires. One of the wires is Black. Jumper this wire to ground and see if the cars runs the same as when the relay was jumpered. There is a solid Black wire and a Brown wire that are connected to the AFM. Solid Black runs to it and the Brown goes from the AFM to the Circuit Opening relay. If either of these wires has an open then it could cause the problem you have and replacing the AFM would not solve the problem. Also jumpering the two wires in the fuel check connector might tell you if and where the troubled wire(s) is.