lax-rotor

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I'm rather curious as I'm trying to figure out how to remove the Air pump from the activation of the 6pi completly (and hopefully from the engine bay too) without a replacement air supply source. However before I start on doing that I would like to know how much force is necessary for the ports to activate.

Is it 35 lbs or less, 35-50lbs, 50-75lbs? Estimates are welcome, but actual knowledge would be appreciated. I have a feeling it's less than 35 lbs, but I can't tell if that's just resistence from the stock actuators.

Thanks.

TehMonkay

iTrader: (-1)

It's in the FSM

cptpain

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its wayy less than 35 lbs. the air pump is not that strong.... if it was there would be many "ghetto s/c" mods with blown motors left and right.

i think its around 2-4 lbs

lax-rotor

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Do'h, I knew I shoulda checked that first. Oh well, time to hunt down the FSM from work. Sorry for the junk post.

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

The FSM is only telling me the psi going to the actuator, not the resultant force applied to the 5th and 6th ports. I imagine it would be a simple calculation knowing the input pressures, which are 1.2 psi-2.1psi for starting to open to fully open respectively. My thinking since it's such a "small" actuator it wouldn't be greater than 35 lbs unless the sleeves are frozen. So I imagine it would just be a few pounds of force as cptpain said.

Anyone else want to chim in?

Aaron Cake

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The ports should rotate easily. You should feel no resistance if you rotate the ports with the actuator disconnected. The actuator itself has some resistance.

The S4 uses exhaust backpressure, the S5 uses the air pump. If you remove the air pump there is no way to activate the ports.

lax-rotor

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Thanks Aaron Cake. I'm aware of that (not ment to be taken as sarcastic or mean or anything, just ment as a statment and not an insult... it seemed to read rather harsh and I couldn't think of a better way to say it--so please don't take it as such Aaron, I value your opinion, statments, and facts), but given enough time to recover my funds from my restoration project I'm going to be purchasing some Heavy duty solenoids and an rpm switch there by negating the valve and actuator assembly. And have the solenoids directly connected to activate through the RPM switch, and there by open the 6PI.

Right now my considerations for this project are
1) heat from the exhaust
2) The force necessary to initiate the 6PI
3) Continued draw from the solenoids on the motor
4) any other uses the airpump serves (besides pumping air into the cat)

is there anything else I should take into consideration?

HAILERS

****besides pumping air into the cat******

Into the exaust ports and partialy into the split airpipe that goes to the catalytic converter.



It takes 2 to 3 psi to operate the auxillary ports.


The airpump does not eat up horsepower.

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

is there any particular reason for it to pump air into the exhaust ports, ie is it mandatory to do so?... or are you talking about the 6PI activation?

do you know the conversion to force? how many pounds of force it takes? I'm not sure about how much that converts to but I have already looked up the FSM and posted that in the previous post.

I'm guessing it will take about 3 pounds of force to open the sleeves fully during operation. I get this by thinking it as a simple piston with a rough surface area of about 1 inch or so in the actuator. multiplied by the 2.1 psi necessary to force movement, multiplied by the length traveled will give me the force (i think, could someone double check my thinking?) so... 2.1 * 1.25 * .5= 1.3125 lbs. This is just an estimate though...
I wouldn't imagine it eats up any concievable amount unless you have a frozen one, which I do not. However it does take up room in the engine bay and weighs something. I think weight reduction and more room would be a rather big plus in some applications. Besides also having some amount of tunability with the RPM switch it would negate alot of the excess hardware required to do a similiar setup. Basically removing the pnumatic portion of the electronic 6pi actuation already written about.

Thank you for your comments and advisements. Anything else I should look at?

0verb00st

Do the forces required and methods that open the ports differ between the s4 and s5?

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

To O.P.: Force = pressure x area. Length traveled is not a factor. However, work = force X displacement. "Displacement" = length traveled. Power = work / time (if you use metric units, the answer is in watts). Like, how many gallons of gas does it take to go 50mph? See, that's when length traveled is important. For your purposes, "work" and power are probably unimportant.

To everyone else: He wants to know the FORCE not the pressure. Stop telling him the pressure. Apparently he doesn't want to open his ports with pressure. He probably wants to use some kind of pull device.

As a note, solenoids tend to be pretty weak. Even a couple pounds of force requires a beefy, power hungry solenoid. Though in theory a low power solenoid could do it if you don't mind slow response. Be sure to check pull force and power consumption on any solenoid you buy, or use another method (bicycle air pump, mini air pump, motor, etc.).

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

I knew my math was off somewhere, thanks for pointin' it out to me.

Unfortunatly I don't see your post down where it should be when I wrote this so I'm going from what I remember reading.

How many amps do you think a door lock would pull off the system? I would be under the impression it wouldn't be tons, but after it's open would the draw still be as high? I'm really quite clueless when it comes to soleniods. I haven't had any first hand experience with them since highschool, and even then it was limited. The lowest pull/push type solenoid i found was rated at 35lbs of force--so if what you're saying is true then it will zap my electrical system right at 3800 (assuming i leave it at the stock location on the rpm curve). Have you seen any other lower rated solenoids that you could point me to?

Also I'm un-clear as to what exactly the air pump and the acv are doing on an S4. If i'm not concerned with the emissions wouldn't removal of the acv and the pump be fairly straight forward and not have any adverse affects occur? I realise that the air pump puts fresh air into the cat and even into the exhaust port. But why is it getting dumped on the exhaust port? is it to decrease temperature? help in completing combustion?

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

Huh, maybe I've just been looking at dinky solenoids.
That's an interesting idea with the electric door lock. I'll bet it's plenty strong enough. Though applying current continuously would probably burn it out, since it's only made for pulses. You'd have to reduce the current (by reducing the voltage, for example), which would weaken it some. Dunno how much you have to reduce the current, you just need to keep it from overheating and damaging the wire insulation. Plus powering it continuously might eat up a bit of power.

Solenoids draw less current after they finish moving, but still draw a bit. You'd have to apply power to a door lock and measure the current to see how much.

FCs intentionally run a bit rich, to help keep the intake cool. There are even kits that let you spray in water or alcohol, popular among people who want to run crazy high levels of boost. Fuel (or most any volatile liquid) works too, though not as well. But using fuel is a heck of a lot simpler than setting up a seperate water tank with seperate injectors. And if the driver were to forget to fill this water tank, he'd blow his engine. So yeah, fuel is simpler.

The purpose of the air pump is to supply air to burn away the excess HC (unburnt fuel) and CO (CO forms instead of CO2 when you don't have enough air). The catalytic converter speeds up this reaction.

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

(has anyone else noted that the quote button doesn't work and it doesn't scroll the most recently posted threads up to the top anymore?)

Okay, thanks for telling me about the air pump. I'm going to get rid of it then here in a few. Here's what I was thinking: Using an RPM switch and two low rated soleniods that are in all metal, self grounding cases. This would let me tune specifically and accuratly, yet i'm concerened about the exhaust gases causing more damage to it than the continuous power to it after 3800 rpm. I also had a thought of putting in a resistor inline to reduce the draw to the soleniod. Would that work well?

manslayerx9

with a solenoid there would be no need to operate them continuously because there would be no actuator moving the sleeves back. so one click one way would open them at 3800(or what ever u want) and the other way when u want them closed.