Ishibubu

So a friend of mine and I were arguing earlier today about what car would out handle which. He continued to tell me the 7 sucked at handling and his MS3 could take it.

Any thoughts?

Turbo23

iTrader: (4)

Lucky for you I own both, 07 MS3 and a 87 FC Turbo. Stock for stock, the MS3 would hand a FC its ***, sorry, it does handle quite well. Now my FC which has coilovers, and various suspension goodies, with 255 tires all around kills my 3 with out even having to drive hard. The 3 is just years ahead of the FC. But dont worry, get some suspension mods, and youll be fine. Be safe, and have fun!

unW7WZ

yea, if you havent replaced your suspension yet, then you are going to get schooled. 20+ yr old suspension components < brand new MS3 suspension.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

it's hard to compare anyway. the MS3 is front wheel drive. it requires a different skill set to handle a front wheel drive car.

freemanrx7

The mazda 3 hands down. It's new.....


I really liked the handling of the protege MP3. Now that car was sick for a stock unit.I work at the dealership so I get to drive these cars

DrKillJoY

Yea, your freind is right and wrong.

Yes, his MS3 would most likely outhandle a FC in nearly any situation.

No, the RX-7 doesn't suck by any means.

MaczPayne

iTrader: (5)

Stock for stock, MS3 > FC hands down.

Ishibubu

so with suspension mods it will beat a stock 3? What if the 3 upgraded his suspension too

alphaxxn

In a perfect world, with three equally set up racecars

AWD > RWD > FWD.

A good example of this is the Unlimited class records at the Streets of Willow.

So, If both cars were unlimitedly modified, the RX-7 should handle better.

aznpoopy

thats a ridiculously general question

my guess would be the 7 would begin to outshine the 3 as the 3 hits the limitations inherent in a fwd car, at a certain level of modification

but this is all just pointless bench racing. if you want to shut ur friend up go to an autox and race and beat him with your inferior car

Black91n/a

It depends if by handling you mean performance numbers, or the proper defenition of handling as things like feel, feedback, balance and control. They're two very different things that always seem to get called the same thing.

Handling has nothing to do with numbers, a slow, low grip car can handle well, and a fast, high grip car can handle poorly. Numbers tell you nothing about handling.

If the FC was restored with new springs (they sag), new dampers, new bushings, new drivetrain mounts, new brakes, new LSD, everything engine related running perfectly and all that then it'd have a much better showing than if you compared the two with the FC on a 20 year old worn out suspension.

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

Brand new, not 20 years old, I believe the numbers for both are almost exactly the same. Or I might be thinking about the stock Mazda3, in which case the Mazdaspeed3 would handle a little better (but so would an FC with mildly upgraded springs/shocks). That said, go try to find an FC with a cherry suspension. Ya, Black91 said it.

The 0-60 on the Mazdaspeed3 is about the same as a TII or a hair worse.

Ya, the FC also has 50:50, a low moment of inertia, and rwd which are nice to have even when the level of grip is the same. Makes it easier to control, etc.

I've finally saved up and I'm going to get some handling upgrades soon. How important do you think the LSD and drivetrain mounts are compared to everything else? Should I hunt down a Miata Torsen LSD soon, or put that off until later? Etc.

MmSadda

iTrader: (2)

stock for stock, he's better off. Like many said, though, yours will ultimately handle better if you go for the same mods. If you both get coilovers, you will school him.

I think one could debate what's better between AWD and RWD. however, it's fair to say AWD>FWD, and RWD<FWD

kleetuz

iTrader: (2)

Mazda Speed 3: 3100 lb, higher cg, 60/40 weight distribution, FWD, (also higher CD)

FC TII: 2800 lb, lower cg, 50/50 weight distribution, rwd w/ lsd, (lower CD)

The FC will probably handle better if you consider the physics of a lighter rwd balanced car, maybe not "ride" better but a nice ride is pretty subjective (haven't driven it but I would venture to say the MS3 has less good feedback to the driver), and I think the Rx7 would end up performing better. Not with 20 a year old worn out suspension, but an FC with about 80000 miles on it would never be blown away by a MS3. with less weight and the awesome brakes of the FC you can get faster and deeper into corners as well comparing to how much load is on the front of the MS3.

It is also a little more technical and less forgiving for any average person to get in the rwd Rx7 and drive it at the limit where it would outperform the MS3.

alphaxxn

Given adjusted mechanical traction like a formula car, rear wheel drive is better, only because it allows for a lighter more robust system with fewer parts and cannot benefit any further from the additional traction of a system that can move torque from wheel to wheel under given conditions.

In a situation where the car is confined by manufacturers body and general mechanics, say a street class car, all wheel drive in nearly every situation WILL result in a better lap time. Street cars aren't given the advantage of adjustable downforce, or the monstrous suspension/rubber a race engineered chassis can have.

MmSadda

iTrader: (2)

You bring up some good points. However, if I am not mistaken, the basic suspension components are very different. I could be wrong, but I think the 3 uses a MUCH new suspension, with better components. That would probably make up for the differences in drivetrain, weight distribution, etc.

Also, the "awesome" FC brakes are questionable. If he's got a TII or GXL with the 4-piston calipers and vented rotors, then yes. THOSE FC brakes are freakin amazing.
If we're talking base-model, single-piston brakes, then maybe not so much....

MmSadda

iTrader: (2)

At what point in track-oriented modification of, say, a TII would it become inherently better than a first-generation Subaru STi? Just as a frame of reference.

kleetuz

iTrader: (2)

They both have macpherson strut up front, the rx7 has a modified macpherson strut with pretty good caster (about 5 degrees I think), giving good camber gain when turning the wheel, don't know the specifics on the ms3.

Rear suspension is a multilink e-type for the MS3, which is better, but the DTSS is still comparable, (that stupid rear steer is killer though).

If the MS3 had double wishbone up front it would have more of an advantage.

I think I'll have to get out and test drive an MS3. It's definitely a car that is at the top of it's class. Same for most mazda's though.

Comparing the MS3 to a base model Rx7 or GXL I think it's better, but compared to the TII it's just another challenger.

MmSadda

iTrader: (2)

I meant as far as braking and handling, GXL=TII=ms3?

alphaxxn

I really couldn't tell you, i'm not in the race-car building business. It would be really hard to build a frame of reference for that either way, only because of the varying types of AWD systems and how they work. ATTESA E-TS, Symmetric AWD, etc, and how each chassis reacts. A good example is that people whom have driven Skyline GT-R's almost all agree that it feels exactly like a RWD car, until you step too far or get into trouble. That's how the ATTESA E-TS system works though, the torque split can go as far as 2 percent front, 98 percent rear.

I suppose if you had unlimited resources you could skidpad a stock STi and a stock T2 and go from there with modification, rinse, repeat.

MmSadda

iTrader: (2)

touche. I was looking for a general idea, but it seems like even that might be difficult. Furthermore, I know next to nothing about AWD drivetrains; I didn't realize the Atessa E-TS worked like that, but that's pretty freakin awesome!
Thanks for the info!

Black91n/a

RWD will typically have better handling than AWD, but the AWD will usually be faster.

You have to remember when comparing test numbers that tire technology has come a long way since the 1980's and that'll heavily favour the new car.

As for the drivetrain mounts, they're not "necessary", but make the car feel better, and with increasing suspension mods the need for an LSD increases. I've got a Miata Torsen and I quite like it, seamless for good street manners.

Hyper4mance2k

iTrader: (40)

having driven a MS6, MS3 and my FC on the autoX. I'd easily sat stock to stock MS6>MS3>FC, but with mods MS6>FC>MS3. some shocks springs and some good tires and the FC is an animal. Imagine a FD..... oh I want I want...

Turbo23

iTrader: (4)

hmm Ive also driven the ms6, and found it to be quite heavy, and not as aggressive on a autox course. The speed3 has a huge advantage over the 6 on a autox course. However, during a drag race, the ms6 isnt boost limited, and has the awd, so it just edges out the 3