NZConvertible

To be clear, what I said in another thread was the S5's 9.7:1 CR would have made very little extra power compared to the S4's 9.4:1, ~1hp peak. The same would be true comparing the Resesis's 10.0:0 to the S5's 9.7:1.

iamsisyphus

Enjoyment isn't so simple for me as merely leaving black marks on pavement. I enjoy driving with the top down. Unfortunately, this means a heavier car with diminished aerodynamics. If you can save weight, increase mileage and diminish the negative affects on the environment, why wouldn't you do this?

Yeah, I bought the wrong car! But it's fun to drive. If I have the money to make the car responsible it makes sense to me.

Moreover, do any of you turbo tuning guys car about the car being legal? Where I live, you can't modify an engine unless it ends up OBDII compliant. The equation is pretty easy. You have to transplant the renesis with its computer to come up with any street legal improvement.

By the way, the 20B is six inches longer than the 13B and quite a bit heavier. Either you mount it forward and ruin the balance of the sports car, or you mount it back and you have to hack up the interior to move the shift lever. And what kind of mileage do you get. Will it pass a sniff test?

Everyone is just speculating and going off the handle based on that speculation. Instead of pooling our ignorance, I'll let you know how it goes.

Iamsisyphus.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

going from a 20b to a 13bt, changing nothing but the engine, my car lost 40lbs. 40. thats about the same as the a/c system.

TitaniumTT

That's a bag of **** right there. Maybe if you went from a 13B turbo to an N/A 20B

20B ain't 6 inchs either. I have a rotor infront of me, roughly 3.125" in width & I don't believe the "other" iron is as thick as the rotor housing.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

The 20B "thick" iron is actually very thick. It's been a long time since I measured, but it's about the width of a rotor housing. Maybe slightly thicker.

iamsisyphus

Good thing you led with the insult! Please Aaron Cake's response. I've relied on his articles a number of times. (Thank's Aaron!) He's one of only a few who have any credibility.

There's a discussion of this swap on Page 87 of "Mazda RX-7 Performance Handbook" by Mike Ancas. May I quote? "Add that extra 6 inches toward the front of the car. ... There is more weight ahead of the front wheels, resulting in a less balanced car overall. ... Add the extra 6 inches toward the rear of the car. ... The problem is there's no room to add 6 inches toward the rear of the engine compartment. The solution is to get out the cutting torch."

There are also photographs which might help you out.

Your bag is empty. May I return it so you an fill it again on your own time?

As for the guy who removed the 20B from his FC, I had a scale like that once too. Please see Mike Ancas's opinion above.

Thanks,

Iamsisyphus

evileagle

iTrader: (1)

So you're saying that if I modify the engine... in my 18 year old car... that I have to make it OBDII compliant?

That's insane.

iamsisyphus

Is the reason you trash the renesis swap because you don't sell it?

It seems if you were truly an FCS3 expert, you'd have something constructive to contribute. If others are not qualified to offer an opinion on 20b swaps because they haven't done one why do we value your opinion on the renesis swap which you haven't done.

The most common estimate for a 20B swap I've seen in $15K.

We have different idea. Help us out here.

Iamsisyphus

F1blueRx7

iTrader: (5)

I think he means you can't SWAP an engine in thats not OBDII compliant.

The letter of the law in most states is you cannot swap in an engine OLDER then your current model year. Likewise, you wouldn't be able to swap an OBDII engine for an OBD I or non- OBD engine and keep the car emissions legal.

Keeping the car emissions legal is like, not giving your 20 year old son that just came back from Iraq a beer because he's underage. Who gives a **** if the car doesn't pass emissions.

Bottom line, to the OP, and to everyone else stupid enough to argue either side of this quagmire... Take an Rx-8, and put your 13BT or 13B-RE/W motor in it and make some real power, and have the updated Mazda styling.

Done.

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

Not a good idea, there is less engine bay room than an FD! The Greddy turbo kits BARELY fit (with some fender-wall massaging).

iamsisyphus

You don't care if the car is legal. No RX-8 convertible. In this state, you cannot modify the engine, add a turbo or swap the motor unless the result is OBDII compliant. This is a pretty prevalent status of the law in most states. It would be a shame to spend $10-20K modifying your motor and then have it garaged because it doesn't comply with applicable laws. You should check the laws in your state before undertaking any of the crazy things people advocate here. You'll be surprised to find that the conventional wisdom is not so wise.

Iamsisyphus.

jdmsuper7

iTrader: (1)

Do you really think we all live in emissions free states? PA has pretty strict laws in that department, but my catless TII still manages to pass inspection every year... its really not that hard

The letter of the law is a whole lot different than what actually goes down. Or are you one of those people that drives the speed limit all the time too?

My contribution: Drive a TII, esp a modded one, you'll give up on your (2 rotor) NA dreams really quick

RETed

Is this the recent book?
If so, the coverage on the FC is really pathetic - it was almost as an afterthought.
The book is heavily biased towards the SA and FD...

There's an "easy" solution to the above...
Run a bigger front bar.
Ancas is a dumbass for saying you need to break out the cutting torch...


-Ted

TitaniumTT

by the way... are you referring to this book???



See that... I took a pic with this page in the backgroung. Neat isn't it?

I read this book cover to cover. Your point?

By the way.... this picture that you are referring to... that's of an FD. The FC is on page 86. Not to mention it doesn't show ANYWHERE a good clear pic of the "thick" 20B iron next to a rotor housing which we know the width of based on the rotor that sits ontop of my computer @ work. If you want I can post up a pic of my 13B-RE mani that we can compare it too. Regardless. If someone is going to go through the trouble of swapping in a 20B one would think that they have suffienent skills and tools to make use of a plasma cutter, TIG welder, english wheel and would probably own some of these tools. Not to mention that there are trannies that can be adapted to the 20B that are significantly shorter than the TII's length of (FROM MEMORY HERE SO CUT ME SOME SLACK) 32 & 7/8's inches. Which I might add is one of the longest trannies from bellhousing to shifter that I have ever seen. One of the reasons the Getrag is so appealing. See where I'm going here?

So what were you saying about empty bags now?

Juiceh

iTrader: (4)

Do you have a visual inspection or just a sniffer test\ODBII scan test in your state?

If you do not have a visual inspection then swapping in a 13bt is a no brainer since it will pass the sniffer test with ease, provided you have all emissions equipment in working order. Everything will be the same for the sniffer test as it would be for the NA engine. These cars did not come with ODBII ECU's, by your interpretation of your state law even a rebuild of your engine using NON OEM apex seals would require you to somehow make it ODBII compliant since you would be "modding" the engine by not using all OEM parts... Thats nuts! I believe the law you are refering to is that if you swap in a NEWER engine(1996+) that came factory ODBII you must retain the ODBII compliance of that newer engine in whatever car you put it in. That is the way it is in California, thats how LS1 swaps are doable in that emissions **** state, they retain the LS1 ECU which is an ODBII ecu and they just plug in to see if everything is ok. A Renesis engine would be done the same way since it came from the factory with an ODBII compliant ECU.

But this can be different depending on the state. In Illinois you can swap in any engine you want if your car is pre1996. The car must still pass the sniffer test and meet the requirements for that car model regardless of what engine is in it. As of this year that has changed though, now all pre 1996 cars are exempt! There's a guy here that has an LS1 swapped FD, when he went for his emisions test prior to the exepmtion, they did not plug into his LS1 ODBII Ecu. He still had to pass the sniffer test. In Illinois if the car is 1996+ you may only swap in ODBII compliant engines, since you will have to get plugged in and checked because the car was originally an ODBII vehicle.


You mentioned emmisions testing a 20b being impossible earlier. It has been done before. If all you need to do is pass a sniffer test a 20b can do it if tuned right and you have fresh cats with a constant air supply. It may not be CARB legal, but if you don't live in the emissions **** state you can get a 20b through a sniffer test without a problem.

NZConvertible

If you listen to the people who've actually performed a 20B swap, they'll tell you the balance is far from being "ruined". You're talking about moving the engine's CoG forward ~3" (half the engine's length increase) on a 96" wheelbase, and adding maybe 3-4% to the front axle weight. Those are not big changes, certainly not big enough to "ruin the balance of the car".

And if you decided to move the engine back, the shift lever is the least of your worries...

As you can see in this photo, the extra centre plate is about as wide as the rotor housing, so there's at least six inches extra length.

TitaniumTT

Numbers and proof!! YAY!!!

It was written, therefore it must be true

As far as the shift lever thing, I would like to keep the interior as pristine as possible so the location of the shifter and the location of course then the engine becomes a factor... which is one reason the Getrag is so damn appealing. As for the whole weight thing ruinning the car... move a battery, cornerweight it and be done. How many people hear are good enough drivers to to notice the difference?


That extra iron looked smaller in my head. My bad. Thanks.

I wanna know why they kept the "RE" style exhaust ports when doing that rebuild.

iamsisyphus

Titanium TT:

What you have to say is perfectly correct and absolutely irrelevant. The bag is still empty. The engine is six inches longer.

Iamsisypus

iamsisyphus

And when I do, I risk getting a ticket. If I spent several thousand dollars on an illegal modification the risk is much greater that I will end up having wasted the money when a visual inspection reveals that illegal mod. I have to work for my money, I don't want to trust to chance that I'm not throwing it away.

Iamsisyphus

iamsisyphus

We have an visual. That's where it starts in most states. Actually, most statutes are designed to prevent you from putting an older engine in a newer car. It's not uncommon for states to take advantage of the owner's desire to upgrade to force him to upgrade to the standards the state sets. Either way, I don't want to trust to chance that my money is going into a mod that will ground me.

Iamsisyphus

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

man, why are you so scared to mod your car? Maybe you should just sell it, or get a DD that will allow you to lighten up on the 7...

We all work for out money, and we all are proud of our 7's. No one is gonna TAKE your car from you if it doesnt pass inspection. Where do you live, Communist Russia?

Also, If you take a newer motor and out it in an older car, who would know this?

In AZ, the emmissions folks don't know jack about rotaries. With all emmissions equipment removed, every 7 I know of, has passed the visual part of the inspection. They arent gonna have a RX-7 manual by their side when they do your inspection.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

why dont you do it and see what you find? i actually did it. search under my name, to should pop up in a couple of threads.

its not what i was expecting either. car went from 2860lbs with the 20b to 2820lbs, full tank of gas same scale, prolly 6-8 months apart.

the thick iron is 80mm, ive got one in the garage....

slo

iTrader: (1)

I made a 13b-rew smog legal in my fc and I live in CA

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

the balance is affected mostly because unless you go custom, the front swaybar has to come off.

iamsisyphus

Why do you think I'm scared to modify my car? I want to modify my car, but in a sensible way. What I've been saying is the renesis swap makes sense because it will improve the performance, fuel efficiency and environmental friendliness of the vehicle while being legal in every state because it will be OBDII compatible.

The only reason for keeping the rotary is because it's unique. If you want huge horsepower, you get more, and more reliable, by swapping in a V-8. I want to stay rotary. Ted says 20b is better, but that's what he sells. He also says that the renesis swap won't be unique because it has been done in one post. In others he says the fact that it hasn't been done will make it more expensive than the 20b swap. I can't find anyone anywhere who has done it. If anyone has, or knows of someone who has, I'd like to talk to him. Ted, and every one else, is merely speculating. Until we have someone who has done it, we won't know how the package works or what it costs. It could be fabulous!

Every mod proposed here would make my car illegal in this state. Your gambling that every year, when you go for an inspection, you get a lazy person, ignorant about rotary engines. If you get unlucky, you have a car with thousands of dollars of modifications that you can't drive on the highways. That's not Russia, that's most of America. I'm trying to find a totaled RX-8 right now. I let you know how the project goes. A little encouragement (better yet, some know how) from my RX7 brothers would help.