Experts? Atometer air/fuel gauge & exhaust temp question
08-10-07, 05:33 PM
#26
It's useless for tuning,maybe for a gross diagnostic role it's of some use.Considering you have quit a bit invested in your car by the looks of it,pony up and buy a wideband.You can pic up a innovate LC-1 for under $200 bones before shipping.You can then reprogram one of the analog outputs to use that autometer narrowband gauge to give you a meaningfull light show.Just my 2 cents
08-10-07, 05:34 PM
#27
It's not useful to you because you don't know how to use it. As you have seen from the various posts in this thread, most people do not know how to use it, so don't feel bad. If you would like to know how to use it, then you can take a class at your local trade school or find a local tuner and see if he/she can spend some time showing you how to use it. I do not think it is possible to explain the proper use and tuning procedure on an internet forum.
A wideband kit is a little easier for a novice to use, but I still think you would be wasting your money on one without additional education. I have seen many engines that were supposedly "tuned" by a novice with a wideband, and trust me, they are almost always NOT tuned properly. I would bet money that the forum members who have told you that a narrowband is worthless do not know how to use a wideband either, although they may think differently.
I would not recommend an EGT gauge to a novice, either.
Take the car to a qualified mechanic if you think something is wrong.
A wideband kit is a little easier for a novice to use, but I still think you would be wasting your money on one without additional education. I have seen many engines that were supposedly "tuned" by a novice with a wideband, and trust me, they are almost always NOT tuned properly. I would bet money that the forum members who have told you that a narrowband is worthless do not know how to use a wideband either, although they may think differently.
I would not recommend an EGT gauge to a novice, either.
Take the car to a qualified mechanic if you think something is wrong.
08-10-07, 09:38 PM
#28
Rotorhead
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
Posts: 9,136
Likes: 0
Received 39 Likes
on
33 Posts
There is a narrow band lambda sensor in the downpipe of my current RX-7, the Wolf EMS displays narrow band information on the hand controller and laptop, and a Wolf AF-1 narrow band AFR gauge is part of my custom gauge package. My former 84 RX-7 (12A) was street tuned and had no lambda sensor in the Racing Beat "Street Port" full exhaust system, and my former 88 TII retained the OEM narrow band lambda sensor.
08-11-07, 12:00 AM
#29
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,315
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@ Evil aviator: I dont know how to use it?! Agreed, since I didn't know what the colored bars ment....Since I got an answer to wich numbers equals to wich colored bars, now I know what It means.
Also, taking it to a professional mechanic if something is wrong?? Please, I built the car by myself....So no one will be working on it but me. Took me 9 months to put it together, thank you. Nothing is wrong, just wanna be sure what I am seeing is the what should be right. Nothing wrong with triple checking in my book.
Stop under-estimating people.
I'm not using it to tune anything, I bought it to be sure I wont kill my engine.
I dont have the ''fast an furious'' set up.
EDIT: also, I was only asking what colored bars equaled to what air/fuel ratio. I got my answer, thank you OH wise one.
Also, taking it to a professional mechanic if something is wrong?? Please, I built the car by myself....So no one will be working on it but me. Took me 9 months to put it together, thank you. Nothing is wrong, just wanna be sure what I am seeing is the what should be right. Nothing wrong with triple checking in my book.
Stop under-estimating people.
I'm not using it to tune anything, I bought it to be sure I wont kill my engine.I dont have the ''fast an furious'' set up.
EDIT: also, I was only asking what colored bars equaled to what air/fuel ratio. I got my answer, thank you OH wise one.
Last edited by Spectator; 08-11-07 at 12:05 AM.
08-11-07, 12:15 AM
#30
Lives on the Forum
Back in the day, a wide-band costs $1,000+, and there was no way we could afford one.
Yes, we "tuned" with a narrow-band AFR gauge, but a lot had to do with experience...
-Ted
08-11-07, 06:15 AM
#31
There is a narrow band lambda sensor in the downpipe of my current RX-7, the Wolf EMS displays narrow band information on the hand controller and laptop, and a Wolf AF-1 narrow band AFR gauge is part of my custom gauge package. My former 84 RX-7 (12A) was street tuned and had no lambda sensor in the Racing Beat "Street Port" full exhaust system, and my former 88 TII retained the OEM narrow band lambda sensor.
My questions was more towards would you rely on just a narrow band guage for tunning and troubleshooting?
On a stock ecu, I don't see any point to it, other than knowing when the ecu is in closed loop, and on a stand alone, I wouldn't just trust it by itself, specially under boost.
However you are right, I am no expert; that's why I let an expert tune my car.
Last edited by KNONFS; 08-11-07 at 06:21 AM. Reason: spelling
08-11-07, 07:12 AM
#33
Rotorhead
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
Posts: 9,136
Likes: 0
Received 39 Likes
on
33 Posts
I also have others tune my cars because that is the smart thing to do. I have a lot of education in this area, and many years of experience tuning aircraft engines and helping my friends during their RX-7 tuning sessions, but I am NOT a mechanic or a tuner by trade. I don't know why people are so defensive about not knowing how to tune an engine out of the womb, or why "tuners" are supposed to be some type of god nowadays, but I do find the trend amusing.
08-11-07, 11:19 AM
#34
I suppose that next you will be trying to tell everybody that a telephone can be dialed with a rotating dial and that you can perform calculations with two sliding scales rather than using a calculator? Everybody knows that race cars and sports cars didn't exist until the wide band lambda sensor was invented! .
.
Been there and done that for years, just like Aaron and Ted. However, a wide band is more accurate. You are probably confused by this statement, so I should probably point out that a lot of tuners use EGT or mega-dollar gas analyzers as a primary indication, and that fine tuning is always performed on a dyno or on the street/track rather than with an AFR gauge..
I must point out tht I am not arguing with you; just debating
There are different ways to skin a cat, and *I* personally wouldn't waste $$$ (again) nowdays on a narrow band gauge; let alone let somebody tune my car with just that.Call me chicken
08-11-07, 02:20 PM
#35
Rotorhead
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
Posts: 9,136
Likes: 0
Received 39 Likes
on
33 Posts
The first AFR gauge I used for tuning had only two lights; rich and lean. My friends and I thought it was really cool! Wow, how things have changed.
As for tuners, the guys who are fanatical about wideband AFR readings usually don't know what they are doing, so they actually scare me much more than a reputable tuner who may or may not use an AFR gauge. Other than that, I really don't care what tools the tuner uses, just as long as my car runs well.
08-11-07, 05:10 PM
#36
My Mom thinks I'm special
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: In Hell
Posts: 442
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I suppose that next you will be trying to tell everybody that a telephone can be dialed with a rotating dial and that you can perform calculations with two sliding scales rather than using a calculator? Everybody knows that race cars and sports cars didn't exist until the wide band lambda sensor was invented!
08-11-07, 10:57 PM
#37
Lives on the Forum
Interesting...
I guess any Porsche / Ferrari / Lotus / Bugatti / etc. prior to 1965 wasn't a sports car!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_sensor
-Ted
08-12-07, 04:42 AM
#38
Rotorhead
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
Posts: 9,136
Likes: 0
Received 39 Likes
on
33 Posts
Actually, it was prior to 1976, and they were not sports cars because their engines weren't tuned. In fact, the only way they could even go somewhat fast was if the driver shifted mad quick yo. Even after 1976 hot rodders still couldn't tune engines because there was no internet to ask which AFR to use, as the automotive companies kept this a secret and didn't share it with the consumers. In 1983, Al Gore invented the first TCP/IP network so that regular citizens could find out which AFR to use in order to reduce emissions and save the environment. Much to his dismay, slick aftermarket parts vendors sold AFR gauges as performance items. The masses were duped into thinking that simply owning an AFR gauge made them a "tuner", and all of the resulting mis-tuned cars caused the beginning of what we now call global warming. To combat this problem, Bosch invented the wideband sensor in 1994. The wideband sensor was far superior because each one sold contained a secret microchip that used a capacitor to zap tuning knowledge into the consumer when they first touched the sensor after taking it out of its shipping package. Shortly after the introduction of wide band sensors, turbochargers were installed on cars because prior to that it was impossible to tune a turbo because only narrow band sensors existed. Mazda could now win races because only turbocharged cars are fast, and everybody knows that Mazda could never win any endurance races with an NA engine.
08-12-07, 10:01 AM
#40
Engine, Not Motor
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 29,789
Likes: 0
Received 108 Likes
on
91 Posts
This is turning into a religious war. Different people have different methods of tuning and interpreting what the car is telling them.
Because one person does not use a narrowband for tuning does not make it useless, nor doe another person using it for basic tuning turn it into the best tuning aid around. It's all about method...
There's a wideband in my car right now since tuning a big turbo (and high compression setup...) without some kind of accurate A/F feedback is crazy (in my opinion). However it was scary close how well the light load areas of the map were tuned last year on a narrowband (and smell) alone.
Because one person does not use a narrowband for tuning does not make it useless, nor doe another person using it for basic tuning turn it into the best tuning aid around. It's all about method...
There's a wideband in my car right now since tuning a big turbo (and high compression setup...) without some kind of accurate A/F feedback is crazy (in my opinion). However it was scary close how well the light load areas of the map were tuned last year on a narrowband (and smell) alone.
08-12-07, 12:14 PM
#41
I assume "inverted" = "invented".
Interesting...
I guess any Porsche / Ferrari / Lotus / Bugatti / etc. prior to 1965 wasn't a sports car!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_sensor
-Ted
Interesting...
I guess any Porsche / Ferrari / Lotus / Bugatti / etc. prior to 1965 wasn't a sports car!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_sensor
-Ted
Yes I meant invented, and it was a joke; one of us failed at "teh internet"
08-12-07, 12:17 PM
#42
This is turning into a religious war. Different people have different methods of tuning and interpreting what the car is telling them.
Because one person does not use a narrowband for tuning does not make it useless, nor doe another person using it for basic tuning turn it into the best tuning aid around. It's all about method...
There's a wideband in my car right now since tuning a big turbo (and high compression setup...) without some kind of accurate A/F feedback is crazy (in my opinion). However it was scary close how well the light load areas of the map were tuned last year on a narrowband (and smell) alone.
Because one person does not use a narrowband for tuning does not make it useless, nor doe another person using it for basic tuning turn it into the best tuning aid around. It's all about method...
There's a wideband in my car right now since tuning a big turbo (and high compression setup...) without some kind of accurate A/F feedback is crazy (in my opinion). However it was scary close how well the light load areas of the map were tuned last year on a narrowband (and smell) alone.
BTW - I know of a rotary drag racer that tuned his mid 7 sec car without a narrow\wide band sensor.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
