vectorminds

I've got a 91 N/A Vert and am looking to put a catless exaust on it, and want to get the most power possible from that, i've heard of people using a racing beat dual exaust, and i've also found the mazdatrix dual exaust.

Im wondering which of these two (and possibly any others) would be best. Also, as far as the mazdatrix one goes, which mufflers are better to get, the HKS ones (which cost about 200 more) or the racing beat ones.

So far I've heard racing beat mufflers on a TurboII and they were very quiet... how would the volume of the HKS mufflers compare to this.

For the mazdatrix with the HKS mufflers it is 1438 bucks, for the mazdatrix with the RB mufflers it is 1235.

Im not sure exactly what the price of the actual full dual system made by racing beat is, so if anyone knows?

Also, mazdatrix claims 28% hp increase with their system and the racing beat mufflers, can anyone confirm this, and does anyone know what the corresponding percentage would be with the HKS mufflers.

I know there have been some posts about this in the past, but I wasn't able to make sense of it all and come to a real decision on which is better. So any help would definately be apreciated, thanks

Capn' Wankel

1. Screw paying out the *** for "true dual" systems on the net. Get the RB streetable collected header and then find a suitable muffler and go to an exhaust shop and have a single 2.5 inch exhaust welded up to the header and muffler. This way instead of paying 1200 bucks at least.....you will pay 50 bucks for a muffler ...200 for the header..... and 100 bucks for piping and labor to weld it all together. Grand total of 350 bucks. True duals weigh more than a single....this weight advantage of a single will make up for any power loss by not going true dual.

2. Your buddy with a TII dual exhaust is going to be much quieter because he has a turbo that eliminates 70 percent of the exhaust noise that an NA has. Compare NA exhaust to NA exhaust or you will be rudely awakened by a really loud exhaust hehe.

-Lee

MrFuzzy

iTrader: (1)

The RB Duals are nice though sound great

jon88se

wrong...true duals change your powerband noticeably...they make nice midrange power without sacraficing the great top end headers make. is it worth the $? that depends on how much $ you have hehe can't beat the quality of the true duals...and the RB mufflers are MUCH nicer than the old HKS stuff. muffler shops won't make a system as durable as one from a reputable company. I recommend a racing beat streetable header/presilencer and Apexi single N1 catback...both are HIGH quality pieces, fit well, come with everything you need, lasts for the life of the car and are relatively affordable.

Cory Simpson

The one at mazdatrix is exactly the same as the one at racing beat (exept for the one that has the HKS mufflers on it) And the 28% horse power gain is in an ideal car where the exhaust is completely stock and restricting, and it may have also been tested on a car that has been ported so that the more free flowing exhaust will unleash even more potential HP.


Yes you will also be rudely awaken when you buy a crappy $50 muffler and your rotory that has very strong exhaust pulses, blows the guts out of the muffler. Unless you put it as far away from the exhaust port as possible. And I paid $170 for a set of mufflers on my car. so there is no $50 muffler.

RarestRX

Yo,

You might want to re-think going catless in a 'vert. When you lose the cats, your exhaust is going to stink. There is no two ways about it. It reeks like gas...I have a coupe and that's bad enough.

I can't imagine it with the top down waiting for a light...

BTW, here's a thread on the True Duals:

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...hreadid=181894

Kevin
1989 GTUs "Maybe you can put some lemon scent from Summit in the gas..."

1987RX7guy

iTrader: (3)

vectorminds- I own a set of Duals and they are very good. I recommend them 100% "worth it" is up to you. My oppinion YES they are.


Capn' Wankel- Although your idea is much nicer on his wallet he couls end up with shitty workmanship so I would also tell him to make sure that the muffler shop he has that done at is GOOD and HONEST however I do not agree that he should get 50 dollar mufflers since they could and probably will make the car sound like crap. Remember guys all those ricer guys use these 50 doolar mufflers and look how they sound.(something to think about when choosing mufflers)


MrFuzzy- I agree that the True Duals sound very nice although the original poster might want to check the sound clip at the web site as some forum members say they sound like a weed whacker one crack(sp?) in my oppinion the duals sound better than my friends N1's and are much more calm sounding.





I E-mailed the guy from Mazdatrix and asked what car it was that they tested the Duals on and he said it was on HIS GXL and it had less than 100k miles on it I beleive everything else was stock on the car.


RarestRX-I don't know about smelling it from the driver's seat but maybe I have a bad/deffective nose or something. In a vert the exhaust stench might be more present but in my Sport it is not bad at all. My Girl rides with me almost every day and has never complained of my car stinking like gas or exhaust neither has my best friend, dad, Wankel7, or any of my other occupants. BTW RarestRX nice car

vectorminds- Once again I DO reccomend you the DUals and to any other person that is interested in buying them. It was worth it to me and it just might be to you. The questions answer is and will always be up to you if you want to spend that kind of money on an exhaust or not.

Santiago

vectorminds

Thanks for all the replys so far... keep em comin..

And jon88se... why do you say the RB mufflers are better than the HKS ones, id think if the RB ones were better they would sell for more (i know that more expensive doesnt always mean better.... but it usualy does, cuz they know they can charge more).

So overall what is the difference between the RB and the HKS exausts that come on the mazdatrix true duals...

Cuz as of now it sounds like the RB exausts are cheaper and better... which doesnt usualy happen :-p

1987RX7guy

iTrader: (3)

I beleve that the RB and HKS difference on the duals is just the brand name and the type of muffler they use. I am guessing the HKS ones will be louder since I think they are straight through but not sure on this. I have the ones with the RB mufflers.

mazdaspeed7

Why dont you people ever search? We go through this every couple of weeks...

true duals suck

vectorminds

Hey, mazdaspeed7, i have searched, and i was wondering on some peoples opinions on certain questions. Would you care to explain why you think the true duals suck, and what you think will be better? My goal overall also is more low end response, which i've heard the duals do well... i could care less about more power up at 7k, because i dont drive up there anyway, gas is too expensive and its too damn loud :p

So I am interested in an exaust that will provide me a bit better tone, deeper, less tinny, and better power across the whole band specificaly at the low end. If you think there is an exaust better than the true duals then i definately want to hear about it, and find out how much it costs and where to get it.

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

This is my own personal opinion and in no way is intended to insult anyone else if their opinion differs from mine.

I've had just about every conceivable style of exhaust system on my car, long primary, short primary, duals, unequal length headers, etc... The true dual system from Racing Beat is WAY overpriced and extraordinarily heavy. I had some serious quality control issues with them on my GSL-SE exhaust. The true duals sounds like 2 dueling lawnmowers. I personally liked the sweet sonorous singing of a nice collected system. It's kind of like comparing a Ferrari 360 exhaust note to your neighbors Harley. Different people like different things though. The powerband is best in the low-mid rpm range. As a consequense gas mileage goes up. I could get 24 mpg on the highway in my 2nd gen with a dual system. Top end wasn't as nice as a collected system. Don't get me wrong it is much better than stock but what isn't. Anyone who just replaces their stock exhaust with a true dual will probably love the power increase. It is quite pronounced. The best system for overall power throughout the useable powerband is from a long primary system. Unfortunately no one sells one for the 2nd gen due to the dual mufflers. A long primary would keep the pipes seperate until the rear of the car where they collect and then pass through one muffler. My favorite option on the 2nd gen when both mufflers were to be used was to just use a header which collected immediately before the cat to a 2 1/2" pipe. Then split at the Y-pipe to two straight through mufflers. A little loud but beautiful sounding. Nice powerband too. The cat just unbolted and I could insert a straight pipe for 364 days of the year. The true dual also was louder than a collected system. I removed my true duals after about a month. I found I could get more power in other designs and a sound I liked. If mileage is your goal and daily drivability is to be at its highest priority, and you like listening to a pack of Harley's drive by then you may like the duals. If you want all out performance and an exhaust note that could inspire a Ferrari owner, do something else. At the very least get a header.

All of this applies only to stock ported engines. For anything bigger true duals is absolutely out of the question. Study up on exhaust theory with greater intake/exhaust overlap and you'll understand why.

As I said these are my personal findings and opinions. It is not intended to insult anyone.

Vector: In your case the duals may be the way to go. It seems to fit your goals nicely. I have different goals and uses for the car so I personally won't use it.

projekt

so rotarygod, would you say that a collected header/presilencer with either an apex N1 or the corksport would be the closest to the system you prefer?

1987RX7guy

iTrader: (3)

I hope I am correct on this but what gives the best power is a long primary out to a single exhaust. Meaning uncollected until the last minute then it goes into one muffler. The thing it you can't buy this you have to make it or have it made for you.

j200pruf

iTrader: (4)

1987 What the hell is so bad about having an exhaust shop make your pipes? It seems like a bunch of ppl on this board are really against taking your car to an exhaust shop and having the pipe made/insalled by them.
It is really easy to find a good compitent exhaust shop make the piping for you. And if you want to expect there work, they will almost always let you go check out a car that is on the lift that is almost done or is done. You could have almost the EXACT same system as the true duals (even though I don't like them) for less than half the money. And if you do it that way you can research and figure out what RPM you would wan't the exhaust to be optimized for. Combine this with a Street port and a intake that is optimized for the same RPM as the exhaust and you would have one fast N/A RX7.

1987RX7guy

iTrader: (3)

j200pruf- First I don'e trust many mechanics around here. If you lived here you would know why. Second the setup Mazdatrix sells is SS except the Headers. Third it is illegal for a shop to make a setup like this simply because it does not have any catalitic converters. The shop can get a big fine for it. They should not even work on a car that had a modded emmissions system so they would not touch my car anyways. In my case I need to have some way to actuate my auxilary ports without wiring them up(I don't want to lose what little low end we have) the duals can do this. If I take it to a shop I will have to buy the pre-silencers and headers from RB anyways so that will bring the price up to atleast 600 dollars IF I get some cheap *** crappy mufflers that I personally don't like the sound of. The whole tunned to a certain RPM thing I don't really care why should I do the math for something I am buying? I don't have a street port or intake porting so I would also have to do that( I do plan this but not now) and since when do I drive at a certain RPM? I use all the RPM range and the duals provide good usable power from 2500 and on I don't loose any low end I actually gained some. I hope you are not taking this as offensive but I am trying to show you all how it is better for me to shell out the cash and have the work done by people who know about our cars not some idiot grease monkey. Ok so to have the same setup with the RB components I would have to buy the Headers twin silencers and TWO yes count them TWO mufflers from them. I will be back with some cost estimates.


Santiago

BTW I happen to like the look of our cars with two mufflers so the long primary to a singe is out unless I buy an FD or FB. The look of one muffler on a car that is supposed to have two is just wrong and LOOKS modified. Something I do not want.

1987RX7guy

iTrader: (3)

TWO RB mufflers-$558
RB header-$134(for people that wand their auxilary ports to work it will cost them another 200 dollars for the fitting for that and the O2 sensor to be put on the headers)
Two presilencers for a Non-turbo with a manual tranny-$260
4 flanges for the pre-silencers(2 per silencer $10 each) 40 bux
Flange for the header(dual outlet) $11.50
Two flanges for the mufflers to hook up to the piping comming from the pre-silencers another $20


1023.50= Without the fabrication or O2 sensor or auxilary port fitting on it. ADD 200 dollars for those fittings 1223.50 plus 100 dollars in fabrication and shipping. Did I also metion you still need gaskets for all the joints??? I think I made the better choice.

RarestRX

Yo,


Just a quick note about exhaust shops around me...I hope you like crush bends because that's all you're going to get. Forget mandrel bending and good flow.

Also, in California they won't touch anything that could be /remotely/ illegal when it comes to smog.

Not to mention my front lip would be torn off on the lift, my seats would get hella dirty, and the whole experience would stress me out.

Not to mention any non-rotary specific muffler will be blown out/burnt up within a few months...

I have faith in Mazdatrix and Racing Beat's engineering...not so much "Joe's Muffler Shack."

My 2 bits.

Kevin
1989 GTUs "I got my used anyways!"

mazdaspeed7

I have replied to those exact same questions in numerous other threads. Im sick of typing and retyping long responses to the same questions over and over. Rotarygod had a nice response, read his. I, like him, actually have experience with more than one aftermarket exhaust, and have come to the same cunclusions. True duals simply cannot match the sound, powerband, or overall power of a good collected system. And RB does not make a good exhaust. RB as a company does not care about n/a's. Their products are made ONLY for profit. They have little to no motivation to make good power, only to make it better than stock(a monkey with a pipe bender and a welder could do that).

If you want a good exhaust, be prepared to spend money. I have no personal experience, but have heard good things about mindtrain. Paul Yaw made the best headers you could buy, but im not sure if theyre still available. His were designed for IT racers, and to make as much power as possible, without sacrificing a usable powerband, or cost. If you can find some, it will be worth every penny. If youre on a budget, RB road race headers(Theres no compromises for them to make here), and have a custom collector made to go after the collectors. The collector should be about 4-9" from the header flange. From there, just make sure you use mandrel bends, and good mufflers, and you have a good exhaust. Single or dual exhaust doesnt matter. Its a preference thing. The collector is where the power is made.

1987RX7guy, you have been defending RB true duals to the death. Answer me this. What other exhausts have YOU had on your car? What do you have to compare your RB exhaust to? Have you ever dynoed your car to see what kind of difference a mod made?

mazdaspeed7

RB engineering..... thats an oxymoron as far as n/a stuff goes...

j200pruf

iTrader: (4)

Wow sucks *** for you guys. I just told them that my car is being turned into a race car, they do happen to do race set-ups. I know of a few mandrel bending places, and even if they don't they still can order madrel U pipes and get the bend they need and weld that into your exhaust.
But for me I am going to be using a RB RR header with a BORLA XR1 as a pre silencer and one in the back, when not running my cat.
I live in Oregon, what the hell are visual inpsections? :p

1987RX7guy

iTrader: (3)

No other exhaust except stock. TRUTH yes. I have yet to find a dyno within 150 miles of my house. If you can find one in the area of 780467696 in Laredo texas be my guest and I will take my car there. Last time I checked Mazdatrix makes the Duals with RB components not RB makes the Duals ok. I have nothing against other exhausts as they all provide a great increase in power but when this guy asked I gave what IS my oppinion. MS7- you should never say the duals sound like ****!!! etc. all these kinds of statements are not FACT they are your point of view. I personaly like the way they sound so your statement is now false because at least I have stood up and said they do not sound like ****. I have heard Wankel7's TII on video tape from far away and his N1's are much louder than my exhaust and he still had a cat at the time. He has told me that his head will hurt after driving the car, while on the other hand, I never get out of my car with a head ache because of my exhaust. If you can provide dyno proof of the exhaust you are talking about having more power in all the areas the Duals provide power (with a resonable exhaust note and dual mufflers then I will shut up but you have never done that now have you) I would be glad to pay you for an exhaust that is proven to do all this for the same or less price of the MT Duals at the same quality level.

I CHALLENGE you to do this here on the FORUM for all to see. I will be the first in line to buy one of these setups from YOU IF you show proof of their superiority in all areas.


Santiago

1987RX7guy

iTrader: (3)

If I told a shop that they would probably call me on the fact that I still have tags and plates not to mention the fact that if it was a race car I should be able to make my own exhaust.

RarestRX

Yo,


Mazdaspeed, have you ever been to Racing Beat? Have you ever spoken with Jim Mederer?

To have you rip on their engineering and products without doing so makes you come off like a "Know it all". Seriously.

Racing Beat has done more to keep the rotary alive here in the states than any other company. I'm sure Jim has forgotten more about rotary engines than most so called "experts" here will know.

If Racing Beat is so in love with turbos, why is most of their catalog dedicated to N/A rotaries? Why not loads and loads of FD stuff? The exact opposite is true: Jim prefers the N/A rotary...he said so himself the day after Sevenstock 5 at Racing Beat.

Racing Beat makes great products for our cars, from swaybars to DTSS eliminators to cat back exhausts. Care to name another company that offers more products for our cars?

I've been to Racing Beat, I have spoken with Jim and Takayuki Oku. They are cool. Their products are good. To say they are only in it for the money is just plain wrong. Do you think there is money to be made in 15+ year old cars? SA's? FB's? RX-2's? RX-3's? FC's?

Yeah, those are /really/ popular import cars these days. Yeah, you're right...Racing Beat is a bunch of money grubbing ******. That's why they opened their doors up after Sevenstock 5 and gave free seminars, free catalogs, and free food.

I said it before:

As an RX-7 owner, you should be thankful that such a great company like Racing Beat is there for us.

Kevin
1989 GTUs "Racing Beat equipped."

vectorminds

Does anyone have any dyno sheets for these exausts, preferably on the same exact car with little to no mods, so we can see how the exausts perform by themselves... I personaly want an exaust that offers most of its power in the low end, i mean high is good, but below 4500 is where i spend most of my driving time... so id like more power down there

From what I have been able to glean from all of the exaust convos for N/A's it seems like the true dual system gives more in on the low end, with still respectable highs, where as a collected system gives more in the high end without really changing the lows much... is this correct.

And also, would someone please explain to me the difference between the HKS and the RB mufflers... why are they HKS ones 200 more?