Engine smokes - recently rebuilt
08-28-12, 05:01 PM
#1
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Engine smokes - recently rebuilt
This has been an long on-going problem that has worked its way through many threads over the last two years.
I have an S5 T2 that was recently rebuilt. The engine probably has no more than 7 hours of running time on it. The housings were street ported by Rotary Evolution.
For the last couple of months I was chasing the idea that the turbo was smoking. I bought a used turbo on here and when that one smoked, I bought another one on eBay. The reason I thought it was the turbo smoking was because I took the turbo out of the intake stream and the engine didn't smoke any longer. But, evidently, I just didn't let it run long enough.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure now that the smoke is coming from the engine. I suppose the most likely culprit would be the oil control rings. But, the rings were new after market Atkins Rotary Viton rings and the springs were also new.
If the rings should be OK, where would be the next most likely to look?
I have an S5 T2 that was recently rebuilt. The engine probably has no more than 7 hours of running time on it. The housings were street ported by Rotary Evolution.
For the last couple of months I was chasing the idea that the turbo was smoking. I bought a used turbo on here and when that one smoked, I bought another one on eBay. The reason I thought it was the turbo smoking was because I took the turbo out of the intake stream and the engine didn't smoke any longer. But, evidently, I just didn't let it run long enough.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure now that the smoke is coming from the engine. I suppose the most likely culprit would be the oil control rings. But, the rings were new after market Atkins Rotary Viton rings and the springs were also new.
If the rings should be OK, where would be the next most likely to look?
08-28-12, 05:11 PM
#2
try pressure testing the cooling system and see how the engine starts up after pressure testing it.
i learned the hard way about these engines and electrolysis, a housing may look ok but tiny drill holes can be in hard to see spots, some in the exhaust passages may not even give indication of pushing coolant through the engine and run perfect aside from smoke clouds out the exhaust.
i know the porting is fine on the outer plates, what did the center plate look like inside the oil control seal area?
it may be difficult but trying to figure out what it is burning is the next step, a cooling system pressure test should give a hint if it is coolant or not.
i learned the hard way about these engines and electrolysis, a housing may look ok but tiny drill holes can be in hard to see spots, some in the exhaust passages may not even give indication of pushing coolant through the engine and run perfect aside from smoke clouds out the exhaust.
i know the porting is fine on the outer plates, what did the center plate look like inside the oil control seal area?
it may be difficult but trying to figure out what it is burning is the next step, a cooling system pressure test should give a hint if it is coolant or not.
08-28-12, 08:05 PM
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try pressure testing the cooling system and see how the engine starts up after pressure testing it.
OK
i learned the hard way about these engines and electrolysis, a housing may look ok but tiny drill holes can be in hard to see spots, some in the exhaust passages may not even give indication of pushing coolant through the engine and run perfect aside from smoke clouds out the exhaust.
It doesn't start smoking right away, maybe 30 seconds after being fired up. It does put out clouds of smoke but runs great.
i know the porting is fine on the outer plates, what did the center plate look like inside the oil control seal area?
I have lots of help with the rebuilds but nobody remembers anything abnormal.
it may be difficult but trying to figure out what it is burning is the next step, a cooling system pressure test should give a hint if it is coolant or not.
OK
i learned the hard way about these engines and electrolysis, a housing may look ok but tiny drill holes can be in hard to see spots, some in the exhaust passages may not even give indication of pushing coolant through the engine and run perfect aside from smoke clouds out the exhaust.
It doesn't start smoking right away, maybe 30 seconds after being fired up. It does put out clouds of smoke but runs great.
i know the porting is fine on the outer plates, what did the center plate look like inside the oil control seal area?
I have lots of help with the rebuilds but nobody remembers anything abnormal.
it may be difficult but trying to figure out what it is burning is the next step, a cooling system pressure test should give a hint if it is coolant or not.
thanks ben......... my dad says thanks too
08-28-12, 09:21 PM
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If it was a oil control ring shouldn't it smoke right away?
08-29-12, 04:05 PM
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I pressure tested the cooling system. I pumped it up to 15 psi and let it set for about 15 minutes, it dropped about 1-2 psi. The pressure testing didn't seem to have an effect on how the engine ran.
The smoke doesn't really smell like oil or antifreeze but it smokes more now than it did last week. It can completely fill a 3 car garage in a few minutes.
The smoke doesn't really smell like oil or antifreeze but it smokes more now than it did last week. It can completely fill a 3 car garage in a few minutes.
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08-29-12, 04:45 PM
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I think we are quickly running out of options. We should have bought one of those JDM engines from Japan2LA.
08-29-12, 04:52 PM
#9
what happened with the tests on the turbo thread? i didn't check back to see if there was oil in the housing before the turbo. if there is oil coming from the engine then it will show by running the engine with the turbo off the car and lines blocked.
i also pitch any oil control rings that have nicks are scars in the shiney contact surface where the seals touch the irons, did you inspect the oil control rings thoroughly? did not sandblast them or run them over a wire wheel? they should be cleaned in a tank of carb cleaner or scrubbed by hand. recieved one engine that they bead blasted everything.. iron surfaces, oil seals, rotors, housings, etc. that engine consumed about 1 quart every 50 miles(made to nearly 500 miles before it got to the point that the engine was siezing up because the bearings were grabbing the e-shaft because there was still media in the rotors and oil system), it was horrible. strangely it didn't smoke a ton, but it was also a non turbo. that said there's only a few parts that can be media blasted and i'm just throwing out ideas to try and figure out what the problem is.
i also pitch any oil control rings that have nicks are scars in the shiney contact surface where the seals touch the irons, did you inspect the oil control rings thoroughly? did not sandblast them or run them over a wire wheel? they should be cleaned in a tank of carb cleaner or scrubbed by hand. recieved one engine that they bead blasted everything.. iron surfaces, oil seals, rotors, housings, etc. that engine consumed about 1 quart every 50 miles(made to nearly 500 miles before it got to the point that the engine was siezing up because the bearings were grabbing the e-shaft because there was still media in the rotors and oil system), it was horrible. strangely it didn't smoke a ton, but it was also a non turbo. that said there's only a few parts that can be media blasted and i'm just throwing out ideas to try and figure out what the problem is.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 08-29-12 at 05:01 PM.
08-29-12, 08:22 PM
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what happened with the tests on the turbo thread? i didn't check back to see if there was oil in the housing before the turbo. if there is oil coming from the engine then it will show by running the engine with the turbo off the car and lines blocked.
A friend took the turbo off again yesterday. I let it run a couple of minutes but it did not smoke and after it ran there wasn't any oil in the manifold. But, it was back firing, alot, the oil could could have been burned off.
i also pitch any oil control rings that have nicks are scars in the shiney contact surface where the seals touch the irons, did you inspect the oil control rings thoroughly? did not sandblast them or run them over a wire wheel? they should be cleaned in a tank of carb cleaner or scrubbed by hand. recieved one engine that they bead blasted everything.. iron surfaces, oil seals, rotors, housings, etc. that engine consumed about 1 quart every 50 miles(made to nearly 500 miles before it got to the point that the engine was siezing up because the bearings were grabbing the e-shaft because there was still media in the rotors and oil system), it was horrible. strangely it didn't smoke a ton, but it was also a non turbo. that said there's only a few parts that can be media blasted and i'm just throwing out ideas to try and figure out what the problem is.
A friend took the turbo off again yesterday. I let it run a couple of minutes but it did not smoke and after it ran there wasn't any oil in the manifold. But, it was back firing, alot, the oil could could have been burned off.
i also pitch any oil control rings that have nicks are scars in the shiney contact surface where the seals touch the irons, did you inspect the oil control rings thoroughly? did not sandblast them or run them over a wire wheel? they should be cleaned in a tank of carb cleaner or scrubbed by hand. recieved one engine that they bead blasted everything.. iron surfaces, oil seals, rotors, housings, etc. that engine consumed about 1 quart every 50 miles(made to nearly 500 miles before it got to the point that the engine was siezing up because the bearings were grabbing the e-shaft because there was still media in the rotors and oil system), it was horrible. strangely it didn't smoke a ton, but it was also a non turbo. that said there's only a few parts that can be media blasted and i'm just throwing out ideas to try and figure out what the problem is.
08-30-12, 08:06 AM
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Is it possible for oil to get into the manifold from the turbo? Or, is this the clue that we have been searching for, pointing to the engine?
08-30-12, 09:37 AM
#13
if it's before the turbine wheel in the exhaust towards the exhaust runners from the engine then it is coming from the engine. try to see which exhaust sleeve is wet with oil if not both. that can help you isolate where to look for the issue when you tear the engine back apart.
08-31-12, 08:08 AM
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if it's before the turbine wheel in the exhaust towards the exhaust runners from the engine then it is coming from the engine. try to see which exhaust sleeve is wet with oil if not both. that can help you isolate where to look for the issue when you tear the engine back apart.
I'm not sure why the oil didn't show up in one of the other times that the turbo had been removed. If it wasn't a holiday weekend I could gather a couple of friends and pull the engine but I'm sure everybody has already made plans.
08-31-12, 10:10 AM
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OK, I'll pull the plugs before I disassemble anything else. I don't see any sense rushing to pull the engine. Project Angie has now reached the two year mark.
08-31-12, 01:47 PM
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I pulled the plugs. All were black and some had oil on the inside of the seal but I'm not sure the oil is visible in the pics.
front rotor and then rear rotor
front rotor and then rear rotor
08-31-12, 02:42 PM
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Thanks for the input but it will still smoke even with the oil fill cap off. I have the charcoal canister connected to the bottom port off of the oil fill spout and then its routed back to the fuel tank, if I recall correctly.
09-01-12, 07:56 AM
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I re-installed the plugs, cranked it over twice for about 30 seconds each time. The front plugs have a coating of oil, not dripping wet but if I touch them I can feel the oil. The rear rotor is mostly dry. I can't feel the oil but when I touched the plugs to a piece of white paper they both left a ring.
09-01-12, 02:00 PM
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Well, its time to pull the engine. Its time to take a look inside. Hopefully, the problem will be easy to find.
This will the third time that this engine has been removed from the car.
This will the third time that this engine has been removed from the car.
09-01-12, 03:35 PM
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I drained the engine oil and the oil was really dirty. Dirty like 3000 miles dirty, but the engine only has about 7 hours on it.
What would make the oil that dirty with those few miles? Of course, everything was spotless for the rebuild.
What would make the oil that dirty with those few miles? Of course, everything was spotless for the rebuild.
09-01-12, 05:39 PM
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Well, the engine is out of the 7. Step 1 is complete. As my grandmother used to say "Many hands make light work." I had two guy friends help me. They both have helped before and one has his own 7. Maybe tomorrow I can start dismantling it.