Electric fan?
05-04-04, 04:11 PM
#26
Engine, Not Motor
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Originally posted by OverDriven
That article is meant to be helpful, but there is alot of contradiction and mis-information in it. First, it states that the electric fan may over-cool the engine. It then goes on to say "They provide inferior cooling to the stock fan" at the end. The biggest thing that bugs me is this:
Electric fans draw quite a lot of current. Most pull surges of 35A or more to start up, then run at 8A-10A. This puts extra load on the alternator. Ever pedaled a bicycle with a generator powered light? If so, then you will know that as the electrical load on a generator/alternator increases, the generator/alternator becomes harder to turn. Suddenly, all that "free" HP you just freed up is once again being used. This time, though, it is being used to turn the alternator.
That paragraph is absolutely untrue. The alternator is no harder to turn under load than it is with no load. I have no idea where this info came from, but it isn't accurate. This post isn't meant to put down aaron, but just to state that you shouldn't believe everything you read.
-Joe
That article is meant to be helpful, but there is alot of contradiction and mis-information in it. First, it states that the electric fan may over-cool the engine. It then goes on to say "They provide inferior cooling to the stock fan" at the end. The biggest thing that bugs me is this:
Electric fans draw quite a lot of current. Most pull surges of 35A or more to start up, then run at 8A-10A. This puts extra load on the alternator. Ever pedaled a bicycle with a generator powered light? If so, then you will know that as the electrical load on a generator/alternator increases, the generator/alternator becomes harder to turn. Suddenly, all that "free" HP you just freed up is once again being used. This time, though, it is being used to turn the alternator.
That paragraph is absolutely untrue. The alternator is no harder to turn under load than it is with no load. I have no idea where this info came from, but it isn't accurate. This post isn't meant to put down aaron, but just to state that you shouldn't believe everything you read.
-Joe
Simple conservation of energy states that an alternator becomes harder to turn based on how much power you are drawing from it.
05-04-04, 04:16 PM
#27
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-There are plenty of fluids whose viscosity increases with temperature. That's how most thermoclutches work-
Name one. that is not how thermoclutches work, see links in my post.
-You need to take a closer look at new cars. FWD cars have e-fans for obvious reasons, but most new cars with longitudinal engines still use a thermoclutch main fan combined with auxiliary e-fans, just like the FC. This is simply because they work so well. Exceptions are cars with angled radiators under low noses (like the FD) where e-fans are simply more practical from an installation point of view.-
True, though most of these clutches are now electronically controlled and provide much less drag on the enigine when disengaged.
Name one. that is not how thermoclutches work, see links in my post.
-You need to take a closer look at new cars. FWD cars have e-fans for obvious reasons, but most new cars with longitudinal engines still use a thermoclutch main fan combined with auxiliary e-fans, just like the FC. This is simply because they work so well. Exceptions are cars with angled radiators under low noses (like the FD) where e-fans are simply more practical from an installation point of view.-
True, though most of these clutches are now electronically controlled and provide much less drag on the enigine when disengaged.
05-04-04, 04:29 PM
#30
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Originally posted by Aaron Cake
Argue with me about anything you want....just DO NOT assume I know nothing about electronics. Unless you have a degree in electrical engineering, I won't even listen.
Simple conservation of energy states that an alternator becomes harder to turn based on how much power you are drawing from it.
Argue with me about anything you want....just DO NOT assume I know nothing about electronics. Unless you have a degree in electrical engineering, I won't even listen.
Simple conservation of energy states that an alternator becomes harder to turn based on how much power you are drawing from it.
-Joe
05-04-04, 04:31 PM
#31
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welcome
Hers something thats semi on topic and interesting, its dyno testing on a bunch of fans (no electric, though it does have alternator numbers) both clutched and not.
http://carnut.com/ramblin/dyno.html
Hers something thats semi on topic and interesting, its dyno testing on a bunch of fans (no electric, though it does have alternator numbers) both clutched and not.
http://carnut.com/ramblin/dyno.html
05-04-04, 04:43 PM
#32
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Originally posted by OverDriven
...I've got enough physics knowledge to bury a person in books.
...I've got enough physics knowledge to bury a person in books.
05-04-04, 04:47 PM
#33
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actualy, that would be true if alternators were simple generators, but they arnt, the voltage regulator regulates the current going to the stator (switches it on and off i believe) to maintain an even voltage at differnt current draws, thus it does increase load on the motor with current draw.
http://www.familycar.com/Classroom/charging.htm
http://www.familycar.com/Classroom/charging.htm
05-04-04, 04:48 PM
#34
I wish I was driving!
Originally posted by NZConvertible
It's pretty obvious he means the motor, not the impeller. I know they fail, because the one in my stock e-fan just did...
It's pretty obvious he means the motor, not the impeller. I know they fail, because the one in my stock e-fan just did...
"physical failure of the fan, failure of the motor"
If he meant failure of the motor, then why would he state it twice in a row? Seems a little redundant.
I agreed with you in that there are two failure modes: Fan motor and thermoswitch. Listing anything else as a likely failure mode is needlessly badmouthing the electric fan when the whole point of the article was to be impartial.
Also, a thermostat is not the same thing as a thermally triggered switch. A website giving out information to enthusiasts should use correct terms, especially when its written by someone who will "ignore anyone who doesn't have a degree in EE".
05-04-04, 04:56 PM
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I do think however that an electric fan will free up more horse power then the page states.. because the stock fan is viscous and doesnt ever fully disengadge the fraction of the horsepower it does take is going to increase exponentially with the rpm of the motor, it can get big pretty quick... whereas the draw from the alternator will only be present when the fan is on, and will be constant.
05-04-04, 06:44 PM
#37
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Originally posted by scathcart
Also, a thermostat is not the same thing as a thermally triggered switch. A website giving out information to enthusiasts should use correct terms, especially when its written by someone who will "ignore anyone who doesn't have a degree in EE".
Also, a thermostat is not the same thing as a thermally triggered switch. A website giving out information to enthusiasts should use correct terms, especially when its written by someone who will "ignore anyone who doesn't have a degree in EE".
Perhaps if we ask nicely he'll change it.
Originally posted by drago86
...the fraction of the horsepower it does take is going to increase exponentially with the rpm of the motor, it can get big pretty quick...
...the fraction of the horsepower it does take is going to increase exponentially with the rpm of the motor, it can get big pretty quick...
05-04-04, 07:01 PM
#38
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Originally posted by scathcart
Are you kidding me? Even the name 20W50 tells you it gets thinner as it heats up. Why you do you think we do oil changes when the car is hot?
Are you kidding me? Even the name 20W50 tells you it gets thinner as it heats up. Why you do you think we do oil changes when the car is hot?
Rob
Last edited by Rob500; 05-04-04 at 07:08 PM.
05-04-04, 07:36 PM
#39
The mystery of the prize.
Originally posted by OverDriven
This puts extra load on the alternator. Ever pedaled a bicycle with a generator powered light? If so, then you will know that as the electrical load on a generator/alternator increases, the generator/alternator becomes harder to turn. Suddenly, all that "free" HP you just freed up is once again being used. This time, though, it is being used to turn the alternator.
That paragraph is absolutely untrue. The alternator is no harder to turn under load than it is with no load. I have no idea where this info came from, but it isn't accurate. This post isn't meant to put down aaron, but just to state that you shouldn't believe everything you read.
-Joe
This puts extra load on the alternator. Ever pedaled a bicycle with a generator powered light? If so, then you will know that as the electrical load on a generator/alternator increases, the generator/alternator becomes harder to turn. Suddenly, all that "free" HP you just freed up is once again being used. This time, though, it is being used to turn the alternator.
That paragraph is absolutely untrue. The alternator is no harder to turn under load than it is with no load. I have no idea where this info came from, but it isn't accurate. This post isn't meant to put down aaron, but just to state that you shouldn't believe everything you read.
-Joe
hah
riiight, you got at least one part right, the 'you shouldnt believe everything you read'. Guys, don't believe what overdriven types. Perhaps you should disable the idle air control and turn on your defroster or headlamps, or blower motor, or, more appropriately, 'efan'. Watch your idle drop, maybe even engine stall depending on how low your idle is set and how much electrical load you have turned on.
When there is a greater electrical load on the alternator, drawing more current, there is a greater load on the mechnaism turning the alternator.
This is obvious, the energy is not free. If the energy were free, we would have no hunger in the world, we would just draw all the current we wanted from alternators and spin them with mice in wheels.
Do us all a favor and stop posting about subjects you do not understand as if you are an authority on the subject.
05-04-04, 07:40 PM
#41
The mystery of the prize.
Originally posted by OverDriven
Isn't that a little egotistical to say...specially for a 23 year old? You don't know everything, and I've got enough physics knowledge to bury a person in books. Trying to bring up the Law of Conservation doesn't make you look any smarter...it doesn't even apply to this argument. Energy can't be destroyed or created, just changed in its form...so what? When a moving magnetic field passes through a conductive core, it induces current in that core in proportion to the speed, magnet strength, and core mass. The amount of electricity drawn from that system means nothing.
-Joe
Isn't that a little egotistical to say...specially for a 23 year old? You don't know everything, and I've got enough physics knowledge to bury a person in books. Trying to bring up the Law of Conservation doesn't make you look any smarter...it doesn't even apply to this argument. Energy can't be destroyed or created, just changed in its form...so what? When a moving magnetic field passes through a conductive core, it induces current in that core in proportion to the speed, magnet strength, and core mass. The amount of electricity drawn from that system means nothing.
-Joe
2 words:
Lenz's Law
apparently your pile of books doesnt mention it.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...27s+law+oppose
Last edited by pengarufoo; 05-04-04 at 07:43 PM.
05-04-04, 07:44 PM
#42
Engine, Not Motor
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Originally posted by OverDriven
Isn't that a little egotistical to say...specially for a 23 year old? You don't know everything, and I've got enough physics knowledge to bury a person in books. Trying to bring up the Law of Conservation doesn't make you look any smarter...it doesn't even apply to this argument. Energy can't be destroyed or created, just changed in its form...so what? When a moving magnetic field passes through a conductive core, it induces current in that core in proportion to the speed, magnet strength, and core mass. The amount of electricity drawn from that system means nothing.
-Joe
Isn't that a little egotistical to say...specially for a 23 year old? You don't know everything, and I've got enough physics knowledge to bury a person in books. Trying to bring up the Law of Conservation doesn't make you look any smarter...it doesn't even apply to this argument. Energy can't be destroyed or created, just changed in its form...so what? When a moving magnetic field passes through a conductive core, it induces current in that core in proportion to the speed, magnet strength, and core mass. The amount of electricity drawn from that system means nothing.
-Joe
Increasing the load on any generator will increase the amount of power it takes to turn it. Plain and simple. You can easily demonstrate yourself. Spin the alternator free....Now short the 12V output to ground (this being done outside the car). See the result?
BTW, I'm 24, and while I am not a physics major, I believe I can easily speak with authority on these things. I tend not to do stuff like this, but let me toot my own horn a little...
It was grade 2 when I first discovered electronics. Making lights glow with batteries was a great thrill, and so was making my own light bulbs with the use of a homemade vacuum pump. In grade 3 I began designing and building my own electric motors. Like others of that age, I tried the age-old technique of connecting a generator to a motor, and quickly found out that there's no such thing as free energy. By mid grade 3, I had motors that would spin smoothly up to 20,000 RPM or so. Remember, these were hand made. Grade 4 and 5 was spent on basic circuits...timers, oscillators, radios, etc. Grade 6 got me heavily into computers, so I began building with gates and other digital devices. I made a few simple calculators, shift registers, etc. It was around grade 7 that I began getting interested in EVs, and researched this heavily. Naturally, that lead to the discussions on regen braking, and obviously the fact that the more current you draw from a generator means that you need more power to turn the shaft. Alternators are often used in EVs as makeshift regen devices, since it's easier then using the main traction motor. It's need using your braking energy to charge your 12V system. Anyway, it was about grade 8 that I got seriously intersted power electronics. In grade 9 I designed and built a 3 phase inverter for EV use. It used some seriously large IGBTs, and oddly enough, drove an alternator as a motor (obvious, rectifiers and such removed). At that time, I also built my first electric go-kart. Grade 10 and 11 were the years of high voltage. Starting with small 10,000V transformers, to 50+KV flyback generators, to a 500,000V Tesla Coil, to a 1.5 million V Tesla Coil (that one was a beast). At around grade 12, I built a starter motor powered go-kart. It sucked, and that was my lesson in motor efficiency. It was also that year thta I designed both parallel port and ISA computer interfaces to run an industrial press and other automation. By the time I was 19, and in grade 13, I had begun to loose interest in electronics, but my EV stuff sucked me back in and I continue to learn more and more about the subtlties of electric motors/generators and batteries. Sitting on my computer right now I have the following designs based on microcontrollers (I have just never built the circuits):
-AFM elimination for 2nd gen RX-7 using stock ECU and map sensor. BTW, this includes full curve adjustment based on RPM, load and TPS (like S-AFC)
-microcontroller based e-fan controller with fully adjustable on/off temps, as well as "turbo timer" type function (fan runs when car off for set time)
-homemade additional injector driver
-timing retard based on boost for trailing and leading coil, designed to run with the stock NA ECU
I just don't have the time/desire to actually build. BTW, I don't use simulators. They were designed right from my brain on a whim.
So you see that I get a little annoyed, having 15 years of hobbiest electronics knowledge, when someone says that something I know as FACT is in fact not true.
Want more proof? Easy. Warm up your engine to normal temps, and make sure it idles at 750 RPM. Disable the BAC valve. Now turn on EVERY electrical load in your car. Headlights, brake lights, crank the stereo, crank the heater fan, and if you have an e-fan, turn it on. Watch your idle drop several hundred RPM...Now, why is that? Could it be that the load on the engine from the alternator has now been increased? Hmmm....
Want even more proof? You can go for a ride in my hybrid electric Honda Insight if you are ever in London. I'll connect up the current sensor to a dash meter, and demonstrate regen braking and how the more current is being put into the battery pack, the faster the car slows down...Oh, and guess what? The motor/generator in the Insight is just a big alternator, and happens to be three phase, exactly like the alternator in the FC.
05-04-04, 07:48 PM
#43
Engine, Not Motor
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Originally posted by scathcart
If he meant failure of the motor, then why would he state it twice in a row? Seems a little redundant.
I agreed with you in that there are two failure modes: Fan motor and thermoswitch. Listing anything else as a likely failure mode is needlessly badmouthing the electric fan when the whole point of the article was to be impartial.
Also, a thermostat is not the same thing as a thermally triggered switch. A website giving out information to enthusiasts should use correct terms, especially when its written by someone who will "ignore anyone who doesn't have a degree in EE".
If he meant failure of the motor, then why would he state it twice in a row? Seems a little redundant.
I agreed with you in that there are two failure modes: Fan motor and thermoswitch. Listing anything else as a likely failure mode is needlessly badmouthing the electric fan when the whole point of the article was to be impartial.
Also, a thermostat is not the same thing as a thermally triggered switch. A website giving out information to enthusiasts should use correct terms, especially when its written by someone who will "ignore anyone who doesn't have a degree in EE".
)
05-05-04, 08:58 AM
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wow. but what about my question?
Originally posted by 91_fc
in the reading it said that the fan only begins to work when the car is not moving going less than 20 mph. he also said you only gain a .5-1hp w/ the electric fan conversion. this means in motion (over 20mph) the fan (either an e fan or not) will not spin because wind is already passing through. wouldn't this mean that you gain your hp back at this time? isnt the hp only lost at times when you are under 20mph, a rather insignificant time?
in the reading it said that the fan only begins to work when the car is not moving going less than 20 mph. he also said you only gain a .5-1hp w/ the electric fan conversion. this means in motion (over 20mph) the fan (either an e fan or not) will not spin because wind is already passing through. wouldn't this mean that you gain your hp back at this time? isnt the hp only lost at times when you are under 20mph, a rather insignificant time?
05-05-04, 10:40 AM
#45
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Originally posted by Aaron Cake
So an alternator is a free energy device? Interesting...
Increasing the load on any generator will increase the amount of power it takes to turn it. Plain and simple. You can easily demonstrate yourself. Spin the alternator free....Now short the 12V output to ground (this being done outside the car). See the result?
BTW, I'm 24, and while I am not a physics major, I believe I can easily speak with authority on these things. I tend not to do stuff like this, but let me toot my own horn a little...
It was grade 2 when I first discovered electronics. Making lights glow with batteries was a great thrill, and so was making my own light bulbs with the use of a homemade vacuum pump. In grade 3 I began designing and building my own electric motors. Like others of that age, I tried the age-old technique of connecting a generator to a motor, and quickly found out that there's no such thing as free energy. By mid grade 3, I had motors that would spin smoothly up to 20,000 RPM or so. Remember, these were hand made. Grade 4 and 5 was spent on basic circuits...timers, oscillators, radios, etc. Grade 6 got me heavily into computers, so I began building with gates and other digital devices. I made a few simple calculators, shift registers, etc. It was around grade 7 that I began getting interested in EVs, and researched this heavily. Naturally, that lead to the discussions on regen braking, and obviously the fact that the more current you draw from a generator means that you need more power to turn the shaft. Alternators are often used in EVs as makeshift regen devices, since it's easier then using the main traction motor. It's need using your braking energy to charge your 12V system. Anyway, it was about grade 8 that I got seriously intersted power electronics. In grade 9 I designed and built a 3 phase inverter for EV use. It used some seriously large IGBTs, and oddly enough, drove an alternator as a motor (obvious, rectifiers and such removed). At that time, I also built my first electric go-kart. Grade 10 and 11 were the years of high voltage. Starting with small 10,000V transformers, to 50+KV flyback generators, to a 500,000V Tesla Coil, to a 1.5 million V Tesla Coil (that one was a beast). At around grade 12, I built a starter motor powered go-kart. It sucked, and that was my lesson in motor efficiency. It was also that year thta I designed both parallel port and ISA computer interfaces to run an industrial press and other automation. By the time I was 19, and in grade 13, I had begun to loose interest in electronics, but my EV stuff sucked me back in and I continue to learn more and more about the subtlties of electric motors/generators and batteries. Sitting on my computer right now I have the following designs based on microcontrollers (I have just never built the circuits):
-AFM elimination for 2nd gen RX-7 using stock ECU and map sensor. BTW, this includes full curve adjustment based on RPM, load and TPS (like S-AFC)
-microcontroller based e-fan controller with fully adjustable on/off temps, as well as "turbo timer" type function (fan runs when car off for set time)
-homemade additional injector driver
-timing retard based on boost for trailing and leading coil, designed to run with the stock NA ECU
I just don't have the time/desire to actually build. BTW, I don't use simulators. They were designed right from my brain on a whim.
So you see that I get a little annoyed, having 15 years of hobbiest electronics knowledge, when someone says that something I know as FACT is in fact not true.
Want more proof? Easy. Warm up your engine to normal temps, and make sure it idles at 750 RPM. Disable the BAC valve. Now turn on EVERY electrical load in your car. Headlights, brake lights, crank the stereo, crank the heater fan, and if you have an e-fan, turn it on. Watch your idle drop several hundred RPM...Now, why is that? Could it be that the load on the engine from the alternator has now been increased? Hmmm....
Want even more proof? You can go for a ride in my hybrid electric Honda Insight if you are ever in London. I'll connect up the current sensor to a dash meter, and demonstrate regen braking and how the more current is being put into the battery pack, the faster the car slows down...Oh, and guess what? The motor/generator in the Insight is just a big alternator, and happens to be three phase, exactly like the alternator in the FC.
So an alternator is a free energy device? Interesting...
Increasing the load on any generator will increase the amount of power it takes to turn it. Plain and simple. You can easily demonstrate yourself. Spin the alternator free....Now short the 12V output to ground (this being done outside the car). See the result?
BTW, I'm 24, and while I am not a physics major, I believe I can easily speak with authority on these things. I tend not to do stuff like this, but let me toot my own horn a little...
It was grade 2 when I first discovered electronics. Making lights glow with batteries was a great thrill, and so was making my own light bulbs with the use of a homemade vacuum pump. In grade 3 I began designing and building my own electric motors. Like others of that age, I tried the age-old technique of connecting a generator to a motor, and quickly found out that there's no such thing as free energy. By mid grade 3, I had motors that would spin smoothly up to 20,000 RPM or so. Remember, these were hand made. Grade 4 and 5 was spent on basic circuits...timers, oscillators, radios, etc. Grade 6 got me heavily into computers, so I began building with gates and other digital devices. I made a few simple calculators, shift registers, etc. It was around grade 7 that I began getting interested in EVs, and researched this heavily. Naturally, that lead to the discussions on regen braking, and obviously the fact that the more current you draw from a generator means that you need more power to turn the shaft. Alternators are often used in EVs as makeshift regen devices, since it's easier then using the main traction motor. It's need using your braking energy to charge your 12V system. Anyway, it was about grade 8 that I got seriously intersted power electronics. In grade 9 I designed and built a 3 phase inverter for EV use. It used some seriously large IGBTs, and oddly enough, drove an alternator as a motor (obvious, rectifiers and such removed). At that time, I also built my first electric go-kart. Grade 10 and 11 were the years of high voltage. Starting with small 10,000V transformers, to 50+KV flyback generators, to a 500,000V Tesla Coil, to a 1.5 million V Tesla Coil (that one was a beast). At around grade 12, I built a starter motor powered go-kart. It sucked, and that was my lesson in motor efficiency. It was also that year thta I designed both parallel port and ISA computer interfaces to run an industrial press and other automation. By the time I was 19, and in grade 13, I had begun to loose interest in electronics, but my EV stuff sucked me back in and I continue to learn more and more about the subtlties of electric motors/generators and batteries. Sitting on my computer right now I have the following designs based on microcontrollers (I have just never built the circuits):
-AFM elimination for 2nd gen RX-7 using stock ECU and map sensor. BTW, this includes full curve adjustment based on RPM, load and TPS (like S-AFC)
-microcontroller based e-fan controller with fully adjustable on/off temps, as well as "turbo timer" type function (fan runs when car off for set time)
-homemade additional injector driver
-timing retard based on boost for trailing and leading coil, designed to run with the stock NA ECU
I just don't have the time/desire to actually build. BTW, I don't use simulators. They were designed right from my brain on a whim.
So you see that I get a little annoyed, having 15 years of hobbiest electronics knowledge, when someone says that something I know as FACT is in fact not true.
Want more proof? Easy. Warm up your engine to normal temps, and make sure it idles at 750 RPM. Disable the BAC valve. Now turn on EVERY electrical load in your car. Headlights, brake lights, crank the stereo, crank the heater fan, and if you have an e-fan, turn it on. Watch your idle drop several hundred RPM...Now, why is that? Could it be that the load on the engine from the alternator has now been increased? Hmmm....
Want even more proof? You can go for a ride in my hybrid electric Honda Insight if you are ever in London. I'll connect up the current sensor to a dash meter, and demonstrate regen braking and how the more current is being put into the battery pack, the faster the car slows down...Oh, and guess what? The motor/generator in the Insight is just a big alternator, and happens to be three phase, exactly like the alternator in the FC.
I'm just going to agree to disagree. I'm sure you are a very smart guy...I'm not trying to challenge that. I actually grew up doing similar things as you...though mine was geared more towards chemistry and physics. My 6th grade science project was a Tesla Coil! Imagine the looks on my classmates' faces when I fired that thing up!
Anyways man...I don't know everything and I'll admit that. I stand my my argument, but I admit that I could be wrong. There no sense in fighting with a fellow FC owner over something so trivial though. So thats it from me in this thread!-Joe