EGT question blown rear rotor?
10-18-07, 01:58 PM
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EGT question blown rear rotor?
I just noticed this the other night. My car just got retuned with the haltech.
I have the PR Dual EGT gauge.
Now I'm noticing its not showing the rear rotor temp at all, as in pegged to the bottom. If I lift on the gas pedal then the rear temp shoots up and matches the front. Then give it gas and back down the rear temp goes. After a while they both heat up and level out like they used to. I tried to look for temp drops when it bucks/studders a little bit (when the temps finally match up) but i dont see either of the temps drop when this happens?
Is any of this a common thing with a blown seal? I'm paranoid. I know, I will check the electrical connection later today. I just find it odd that on lifting the rear starts to work again.
Thanks
I have the PR Dual EGT gauge.
Now I'm noticing its not showing the rear rotor temp at all, as in pegged to the bottom. If I lift on the gas pedal then the rear temp shoots up and matches the front. Then give it gas and back down the rear temp goes. After a while they both heat up and level out like they used to. I tried to look for temp drops when it bucks/studders a little bit (when the temps finally match up) but i dont see either of the temps drop when this happens?
Is any of this a common thing with a blown seal? I'm paranoid. I know, I will check the electrical connection later today. I just find it odd that on lifting the rear starts to work again.
Thanks
10-18-07, 02:21 PM
#2
The common thing with a blown seal or chamber is the exact opposite of what you describe.
A blown seal should exhibit no EGT (on that gauge anyways. Its minimum is 1000F) and when hammered/floored start to rise to a similar level as the un-affected chamber. What you're saying is there's constant temp while cruising, but when you hammer the gas the temp drops right off.
To me, that seems like a tuning issue or an issue with the running systems on the car, not a blown engine.
What's the vac reading when idling? What RPM does it idle at? and to preface both those questions, is it ported?
A blown seal should exhibit no EGT (on that gauge anyways. Its minimum is 1000F) and when hammered/floored start to rise to a similar level as the un-affected chamber. What you're saying is there's constant temp while cruising, but when you hammer the gas the temp drops right off.
To me, that seems like a tuning issue or an issue with the running systems on the car, not a blown engine.
What's the vac reading when idling? What RPM does it idle at? and to preface both those questions, is it ported?
10-18-07, 02:28 PM
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The common thing with a blown seal or chamber is the exact opposite of what you describe.
A blown seal should exhibit no EGT (on that gauge anyways. Its minimum is 1000F) and when hammered/floored start to rise to a similar level as the un-affected chamber. What you're saying is there's constant temp while cruising, but when you hammer the gas the temp drops right off.
To me, that seems like a tuning issue or an issue with the running systems on the car, not a blown engine.
What's the vac reading when idling? What RPM does it idle at? and to preface both those questions, is it ported?
A blown seal should exhibit no EGT (on that gauge anyways. Its minimum is 1000F) and when hammered/floored start to rise to a similar level as the un-affected chamber. What you're saying is there's constant temp while cruising, but when you hammer the gas the temp drops right off.
To me, that seems like a tuning issue or an issue with the running systems on the car, not a blown engine.
What's the vac reading when idling? What RPM does it idle at? and to preface both those questions, is it ported?
Idles at 941 constant according to thehaltech gauge page.
I should have said this to start but yes its a streetport.
I think I have the haltech datalog file from the night it started doing this.
One thing which now I think would have attributed to this is he was just starting to tune it for a seperate map with decel fuel to make it flame on decel. The fuel is def there on decel but the ignition IIRC hasn't been retarded yet. We made 2 seperate maps and I was going to go to the normal map we made until we refined the decel fuel one but by that time he had already left the shop and I couldn't get his computer where the map was stored to come back on.
The car goes pretty lean (15's) at higher rpms in vacuum, while just cruising at a constant speed.
Thanks for the quick reply
10-18-07, 02:37 PM
#4
With vac that deep, I highly doubt its blown - especially if its still idling.
Chances are its a tuning issue or its a a problem with a part that isn't the apex seals
With decel fuel cut enabled, there should be no EGT, or at least an extremely fast drop in EGT, as soon as you lift your foot up (and its not under the inputed RPM number) so if either rotor is showing temperature when you lift from say 5K rpm and the temp is holding until you kick the loud pedal agian, you've got a leaky injector or something causing fuel to still keep firing into the engine.
15's while crusing in vaccum is perfectly fine. At higher RPM's in cruise (4Kish) I like to stay in the14's because I think its a touch safer, but really 15's are fine in vac since there's no load on the engine.
But really, there shouldn't be much tuning to do to accomidate decel fuel cut. Put it on, set the RPM to slightly highers then your average cruise RPM and drive it. Don't need to re-do the fuel maps or anything.
Chances are its a tuning issue or its a a problem with a part that isn't the apex seals
With decel fuel cut enabled, there should be no EGT, or at least an extremely fast drop in EGT, as soon as you lift your foot up (and its not under the inputed RPM number) so if either rotor is showing temperature when you lift from say 5K rpm and the temp is holding until you kick the loud pedal agian, you've got a leaky injector or something causing fuel to still keep firing into the engine.
15's while crusing in vaccum is perfectly fine. At higher RPM's in cruise (4Kish) I like to stay in the14's because I think its a touch safer, but really 15's are fine in vac since there's no load on the engine.
But really, there shouldn't be much tuning to do to accomidate decel fuel cut. Put it on, set the RPM to slightly highers then your average cruise RPM and drive it. Don't need to re-do the fuel maps or anything.
10-18-07, 04:05 PM
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With vac that deep, I highly doubt its blown - especially if its still idling.
Chances are its a tuning issue or its a a problem with a part that isn't the apex seals
With decel fuel cut enabled, there should be no EGT, or at least an extremely fast drop in EGT, as soon as you lift your foot up (and its not under the inputed RPM number) so if either rotor is showing temperature when you lift from say 5K rpm and the temp is holding until you kick the loud pedal agian, you've got a leaky injector or something causing fuel to still keep firing into the engine.
15's while crusing in vaccum is perfectly fine. At higher RPM's in cruise (4Kish) I like to stay in the14's because I think its a touch safer, but really 15's are fine in vac since there's no load on the engine.
But really, there shouldn't be much tuning to do to accomidate decel fuel cut. Put it on, set the RPM to slightly highers then your average cruise RPM and drive it. Don't need to re-do the fuel maps or anything.
Chances are its a tuning issue or its a a problem with a part that isn't the apex seals
With decel fuel cut enabled, there should be no EGT, or at least an extremely fast drop in EGT, as soon as you lift your foot up (and its not under the inputed RPM number) so if either rotor is showing temperature when you lift from say 5K rpm and the temp is holding until you kick the loud pedal agian, you've got a leaky injector or something causing fuel to still keep firing into the engine.
15's while crusing in vaccum is perfectly fine. At higher RPM's in cruise (4Kish) I like to stay in the14's because I think its a touch safer, but really 15's are fine in vac since there's no load on the engine.
But really, there shouldn't be much tuning to do to accomidate decel fuel cut. Put it on, set the RPM to slightly highers then your average cruise RPM and drive it. Don't need to re-do the fuel maps or anything.
This is on a e6x. Are you talking like theres a decel fuel cut map on a higher ecu?
I don't think my e6x has anything like what you speak of. All he did was grab the fuel map and select all ranges in vacuum and add fuel. Can you explain that process a little more or is that for haltechs above the e6x?
10-18-07, 05:40 PM
#7
Thats perfectly fine. For cruising areas, you can pretty well simply take fuel out until the car starts to buck/fart. Then add a little more 15's won't hurt when cruising with no load, its perfectly fine.
Nope, I'm using an X also, and was talking about the Halwin software for it.
Oh trust me, its does
I don't know how that qualifies as enabling decel fuel cut, but whateva 
I was talking exclusively about the X and its halwin software. In the fuel setup menu there's an option at the top called "decel fuel cut" and beside it there's "enable" and "disable" buttons as well as a field where you put a number - the number indicates which RPM you would like decel fuel cut to stop. Ie. - with 2500 in the field, when the engine is decelerating from say 6000rpm it will have zero fuel injected into the engine until the RPM's reach 2500. As soon as the Haltech sees 2499, it starts injecting fuel regularly again. Its wise to make this number slightly higher then your average cruising RPM since when you modulate the throttle - and are over the RPM number you put in - the fuel cut will make light throttle driving very rough since it cuts and turns on frequently.
To turn it on will have zero effect on the fuel map and should do nothing more then what its called - which is to cut fuel to the engine while its decelerating. Simple.
I would be willing to bet by the sounds of your tuner's way of doing things that your problem is in the tune, the wiring or a part failure.
What do your AFR's do when you let off the gas?
15's won't hurt when cruising with no load, its perfectly fine.Oh trust me, its does
To turn it on will have zero effect on the fuel map and should do nothing more then what its called - which is to cut fuel to the engine while its decelerating. Simple.
I would be willing to bet by the sounds of your tuner's way of doing things that your problem is in the tune, the wiring or a part failure.
What do your AFR's do when you let off the gas?
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10-18-07, 09:06 PM
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The afr's go a little lean, I'll look at it tonight and see.
However my idle vacuum is actually -7- -8. Looking at halwin, my mech gauge is off.
I'll check back in tonight after i drive home
Thanks classic!
However my idle vacuum is actually -7- -8. Looking at halwin, my mech gauge is off.
I'll check back in tonight after i drive home
Thanks classic!
10-18-07, 10:28 PM
#10
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I agree, must be something wrong with the sender... Not sending the correct signal at certain temperatures... Otherwise it seems fine since you're messing with the tunning quite a bit.
10-18-07, 11:24 PM
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Thats perfectly fine. For cruising areas, you can pretty well simply take fuel out until the car starts to buck/fart. Then add a little more 15's won't hurt when cruising with no load, its perfectly fine.
Nope, I'm using an X also, and was talking about the Halwin software for it.
Oh trust me, its does
I don't know how that qualifies as enabling decel fuel cut, but whateva
I was talking exclusively about the X and its halwin software. In the fuel setup menu there's an option at the top called "decel fuel cut" and beside it there's "enable" and "disable" buttons as well as a field where you put a number - the number indicates which RPM you would like decel fuel cut to stop. Ie. - with 2500 in the field, when the engine is decelerating from say 6000rpm it will have zero fuel injected into the engine until the RPM's reach 2500. As soon as the Haltech sees 2499, it starts injecting fuel regularly again. Its wise to make this number slightly higher then your average cruising RPM since when you modulate the throttle - and are over the RPM number you put in - the fuel cut will make light throttle driving very rough since it cuts and turns on frequently.
To turn it on will have zero effect on the fuel map and should do nothing more then what its called - which is to cut fuel to the engine while its decelerating. Simple.
I would be willing to bet by the sounds of your tuner's way of doing things that your problem is in the tune, the wiring or a part failure.
What do your AFR's do when you let off the gas?
15's won't hurt when cruising with no load, its perfectly fine.Nope, I'm using an X also, and was talking about the Halwin software for it.
Oh trust me, its does
I don't know how that qualifies as enabling decel fuel cut, but whateva
I was talking exclusively about the X and its halwin software. In the fuel setup menu there's an option at the top called "decel fuel cut" and beside it there's "enable" and "disable" buttons as well as a field where you put a number - the number indicates which RPM you would like decel fuel cut to stop. Ie. - with 2500 in the field, when the engine is decelerating from say 6000rpm it will have zero fuel injected into the engine until the RPM's reach 2500. As soon as the Haltech sees 2499, it starts injecting fuel regularly again. Its wise to make this number slightly higher then your average cruising RPM since when you modulate the throttle - and are over the RPM number you put in - the fuel cut will make light throttle driving very rough since it cuts and turns on frequently.
To turn it on will have zero effect on the fuel map and should do nothing more then what its called - which is to cut fuel to the engine while its decelerating. Simple.
I would be willing to bet by the sounds of your tuner's way of doing things that your problem is in the tune, the wiring or a part failure.
What do your AFR's do when you let off the gas?
ok back. Now it seems the rear egt temp doesnt want to skip up as quickly when i lift as before. I wish i had time today to check the car over.
I totally forgot the haltech had that.
I see what your saying now.
The tuner was trying to add fuel to decel and retard the timing to get some flames.
I reloaded the map before we started to mess with the decel stuff, still does the same thing. On monday I'm going to tear into the car and see if the sensors are messed up or something or if its the wiring. It rained all today and I didn't have much time.
To answer your question about the afr's when I lift, they go to about low 14s
Thanks everyone.
sigh.
10-22-07, 08:31 PM
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ok so more troubling news
1. Swapped out EGT sensors front to rear, rear to front. The same result. The front showed temp, the rear still none.
2.Switched connections on the gauge to see if it was the gauge. Then the front showed no temp, the rear had temp. So its not the gauge or the sensors.
3.Noticed one of the injector trims was -11% while the others were at positive values, I turn that one up to match the other injector and then it ran rich under light throttle.
4. Pulled the plugs and took a listen to the compression. Sounds ok, sounds the way it always has. No weird whooshing murmurs or anything. I know no substitute for a real compression check but meh.
So I guess it has to be the motor? Bad injector maybe? They are brand new. I guess I'll check the injector connections next. But I don't see how all of a sudden something like that could fail. I don't know.
Any other ideas? The car fires right up and idles fine. It doesn't seem to pull as hard as it used to. But i think thats just me. I haven't beat it on hardly since the retune.
This is really frustrating and I'm about to get rid of this nightmare.
1. Swapped out EGT sensors front to rear, rear to front. The same result. The front showed temp, the rear still none.
2.Switched connections on the gauge to see if it was the gauge. Then the front showed no temp, the rear had temp. So its not the gauge or the sensors.
3.Noticed one of the injector trims was -11% while the others were at positive values, I turn that one up to match the other injector and then it ran rich under light throttle.
4. Pulled the plugs and took a listen to the compression. Sounds ok, sounds the way it always has. No weird whooshing murmurs or anything. I know no substitute for a real compression check but meh.
So I guess it has to be the motor? Bad injector maybe? They are brand new. I guess I'll check the injector connections next. But I don't see how all of a sudden something like that could fail. I don't know.
Any other ideas? The car fires right up and idles fine. It doesn't seem to pull as hard as it used to. But i think thats just me. I haven't beat it on hardly since the retune.
This is really frustrating and I'm about to get rid of this nightmare.
10-22-07, 09:25 PM
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T04B(p trim or h trim or something) banks turbo. I don't know much about it, came on the car when I bought it. I had planned to upgrade the turbo this winter.
720 Primaries
1680 Secondary
Walbro 255
Marren FPD
Aeromotive FPR
Tial 44mm WG
Tial 50mm BOV
Racing Beat exhaust, manifold to mufflers. 3 in downpipe etc.
Haltech E6X
Ported s5 TB with secondary butterflies removed.
A/C, emissions, air pump etc. removed. Everything but the power steering is gone.
Thats about it.
Forgot to post above.
Also I found the fuel pump fuse burned up a little. I had to pull it out with pliers. Somehow it was still touching and didn't blow. It came out in 2 pieces.
I replaced it with another 10 AMP, everything is still the same.
Last edited by FCrocious; 10-22-07 at 09:31 PM.
10-22-07, 11:47 PM
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Any other ideas, I'm out of them. Going to call pineapple tomorrow for their input.
10-23-07, 02:42 PM
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tested compression today.
85 front
80ish rear.
Low I guess, but its about the same as when I tested it almost a year ago.
Maybe it could be an ignition issue?
85 front
80ish rear.
Low I guess, but its about the same as when I tested it almost a year ago.
Maybe it could be an ignition issue?
10-23-07, 03:36 PM
#18
It *could* be an ignition issue I suppose, it would have to be trailing related since both leadings fire from the same coil.
Honestly though - from the sounds of the stuff you're finding while poking around halwin (one injector trimmed down....that makes no sense) I would say take the car to a QUALIFIED tuner - or read up and start doing it yourself.
Before any of that though I would start with a full tune up. If there's an un-even burn issue you'll be able to tell by examining the spark plugs. Pull them all and see what they look like. Change them for new ones along with some basic other maintenance items like your fuel filter (granted, the filter wouldn't cause this issue it may allow you to find other problems while poking around) and go from there.
I would be suspicious of un-equal flow between either pair of injectors. That might explain the odd trim settings in Halwin.
EDIT: and yes, those comp. numbers are low - verge of rebuild low - so just keep that in mind.
Honestly though - from the sounds of the stuff you're finding while poking around halwin (one injector trimmed down....that makes no sense) I would say take the car to a QUALIFIED tuner - or read up and start doing it yourself.
Before any of that though I would start with a full tune up. If there's an un-even burn issue you'll be able to tell by examining the spark plugs. Pull them all and see what they look like. Change them for new ones along with some basic other maintenance items like your fuel filter (granted, the filter wouldn't cause this issue it may allow you to find other problems while poking around) and go from there.
I would be suspicious of un-equal flow between either pair of injectors. That might explain the odd trim settings in Halwin.
EDIT: and yes, those comp. numbers are low - verge of rebuild low - so just keep that in mind.
10-23-07, 03:41 PM
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It *could* be an ignition issue I suppose, it would have to be trailing related since both leadings fire from the same coil.
Honestly though - from the sounds of the stuff you're finding while poking around halwin (one injector trimmed down....that makes no sense) I would say take the car to a QUALIFIED tuner - or read up and start doing it yourself.
Before any of that though I would start with a full tune up. If there's an un-even burn issue you'll be able to tell by examining the spark plugs. Pull them all and see what they look like. Change them for new ones along with some basic other maintenance items like your fuel filter (granted, the filter wouldn't cause this issue it may allow you to find other problems while poking around) and go from there.
I would be suspicious of un-equal flow between either pair of injectors. That might explain the odd trim settings in Halwin.
Honestly though - from the sounds of the stuff you're finding while poking around halwin (one injector trimmed down....that makes no sense) I would say take the car to a QUALIFIED tuner - or read up and start doing it yourself.
Before any of that though I would start with a full tune up. If there's an un-even burn issue you'll be able to tell by examining the spark plugs. Pull them all and see what they look like. Change them for new ones along with some basic other maintenance items like your fuel filter (granted, the filter wouldn't cause this issue it may allow you to find other problems while poking around) and go from there.
I would be suspicious of un-equal flow between either pair of injectors. That might explain the odd trim settings in Halwin.
Fuel Filter is new, 2000k maybe. Car still runs strong. I'll test each little thing out this week.
Thanks again.
10-23-07, 05:48 PM
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10-23-07, 05:52 PM
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On the way home today the car stuttered like hell in vacuum at low rpm. Showing rich afr's. Going to get some new plugs and see where I'm at.
This **** is totally weird. So ready to part it out.
The turbo setup as far as I know is already posted above a couple posts.
10-23-07, 05:57 PM
#22
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****, you did mention H-trim...
(P-trim is a turbine wheel trim.)
Did the EGT do the exact same thing on the dyno?
The numbers for the H-trim is about right on your dyno graph.
I hope it's just fouled plugs.
-Ted
(P-trim is a turbine wheel trim.)
Did the EGT do the exact same thing on the dyno?
The numbers for the H-trim is about right on your dyno graph.
I hope it's just fouled plugs.
-Ted
10-23-07, 06:02 PM
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I hope it is too. My buddy parted out his FD with a rebuilt HBP rew thats just sitting in his garage. He said I could buy it from him. So it wouldn't be tooo bad to rewire it all for a rew but I'm still on the fence if I would still want a rx7 after all I've been through. I guess I'd need mounts and such too. I'm already pressed for cash as it is tho.
10-23-07, 06:10 PM
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I've been staring at your dyno graph...
Who did the tuning?
It looks like it's a little too lean, according to the AFR plot.
The curve should've been a lot smoother.
You could be too rich also - too much break-up implies too rich.
Don't be shooting the spark plugs with chemicals.
That'll just soak the elecrode and make it worse.
Get a propane torch and burn the **** out of the tips.
Be careful afterwards with the hot spark plugs!
They leave marks on your bare skin. :P
-Ted
Who did the tuning?
It looks like it's a little too lean, according to the AFR plot.
The curve should've been a lot smoother.
You could be too rich also - too much break-up implies too rich.
Don't be shooting the spark plugs with chemicals.
That'll just soak the elecrode and make it worse.
Get a propane torch and burn the **** out of the tips.
Be careful afterwards with the hot spark plugs!
They leave marks on your bare skin. :P
-Ted
10-23-07, 06:22 PM
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I've been staring at your dyno graph...
Who did the tuning?
It looks like it's a little too lean, according to the AFR plot.
The curve should've been a lot smoother.
You could be too rich also - too much break-up implies too rich.
Don't be shooting the spark plugs with chemicals.
That'll just soak the elecrode and make it worse.
Get a propane torch and burn the **** out of the tips.
Be careful afterwards with the hot spark plugs!
They leave marks on your bare skin. :P
-Ted
Who did the tuning?
It looks like it's a little too lean, according to the AFR plot.
The curve should've been a lot smoother.
You could be too rich also - too much break-up implies too rich.
Don't be shooting the spark plugs with chemicals.
That'll just soak the elecrode and make it worse.
Get a propane torch and burn the **** out of the tips.
Be careful afterwards with the hot spark plugs!
They leave marks on your bare skin. :P
-Ted
He has tuned many cars ranging from benz's to nobles. He used to tune FD's a while back. But my car has been the only rx7 he has dealt with in years. I believe the map started out with a BDC base map and only the fuel as been adjusted. I think the ignition map still hasn't been touched. I'd be happy to send the map to anyone for them to check out.
The afr's did show a little lean around 4000 on that run. It may have been since it wasn't hot like all the other runs, but every other run we did prior had the afr's between 11.2-12