Ebay Silicone Coolant Seals
08-12-06, 10:02 PM
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Ebay Silicone Coolant Seals
Has anyone had any experience with these seals? Maybe I should ask the question a different way :
I just rebuilt the engine, with these 500 degree rated square silicone seals, carefully stacked my layers, got done and torqued it in and apparently one of my outer coolant seals had fallen off when I stacked the engine. Well, crap, so I ordered a new coolant seal from Mazda, and then started dismantling again so it'd be ready when it got here. The thing is, as I'm taking the layers apart, every single silicone o-ring has broken, not pinched like it fell off, but everyone of them is tearing, usually in several place, like they're just dissolving. Is this normal for o-rings? The motor hasn't even been fired yet, just torqued down.
Now their instructions say to use RTV instead of Hylomar for the o-rings, and it almost looks like something in the RTV is dissolving the gasket silicone. I know I spent $50 on the whole set, which seems like a good deal, but not if they're not going to work, and now I've spent the other $80 on a new set of the right gaskets from Mazda.
I wanted to tell my experience though, and see if that's normal for O-rings not to last through any disassembly at all, or if I needed to contact the company and see what the deal is.
Appreciate the input!
I just rebuilt the engine, with these 500 degree rated square silicone seals, carefully stacked my layers, got done and torqued it in and apparently one of my outer coolant seals had fallen off when I stacked the engine. Well, crap, so I ordered a new coolant seal from Mazda, and then started dismantling again so it'd be ready when it got here. The thing is, as I'm taking the layers apart, every single silicone o-ring has broken, not pinched like it fell off, but everyone of them is tearing, usually in several place, like they're just dissolving. Is this normal for o-rings? The motor hasn't even been fired yet, just torqued down.
Now their instructions say to use RTV instead of Hylomar for the o-rings, and it almost looks like something in the RTV is dissolving the gasket silicone. I know I spent $50 on the whole set, which seems like a good deal, but not if they're not going to work, and now I've spent the other $80 on a new set of the right gaskets from Mazda.
I wanted to tell my experience though, and see if that's normal for O-rings not to last through any disassembly at all, or if I needed to contact the company and see what the deal is.
Appreciate the input!
08-12-06, 10:06 PM
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At first glance it seems like a hoax. I would ONLY trust factory Mazda o-rings. I've also heard on several instances that silicone doesent do good at high temperatures.
I'm sure someone else can offer you some more helpful input though.
I'm sure someone else can offer you some more helpful input though.
08-13-06, 08:23 AM
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Here's the message I sent them today, we'll see how they respond.
Originally Posted by Richter12x2
I won this auction and just assembled my engine yesterday. I followed the instructions, using a thin layer of RTV to hold these into the coolant channels and everything seemed fine, and fit well. After stacking my last layer, I discovered that one had fallen out and was pinched in the sides, so I figured that I would have to order another one, and replace it. As I took the engine back apart, every seal I came to was falling apart in pieces, like it had some kind of reaction to the silicone in the RTV. Most of them came apart in several pieces just from picking up the engine layers, pieces that seemed intact snapped even when great care was taken to remove them in one piece.
This doesn't seem right for an engine that was only assembled 3 hours ago. Did I get a faulty set of gaskets? Or is it wrong to use RTV, even though it's in the instructions? I've already ordered a replacement set from Mazda, so I don't need a replacement set. Please let me know how this can be resolved.
This doesn't seem right for an engine that was only assembled 3 hours ago. Did I get a faulty set of gaskets? Or is it wrong to use RTV, even though it's in the instructions? I've already ordered a replacement set from Mazda, so I don't need a replacement set. Please let me know how this can be resolved.
08-13-06, 04:47 PM
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I'd still like to verify that OEM coolant seals don't do this, hasn't anyone had to go back into the engine after assembly before they ran it?
08-13-06, 04:54 PM
#6
any seals installed with RTV will be extremely tough to disassemble and save, every motor i build the seals get tossed in the can if they were never fired on or not, it is just a matter of assembling it correctly the first time.
but no, the seals coming apart even with care doesn't sound normal, i can pull out OEM seals in one piece after assembling an engine even with RTV but cleaning the seals is the part that doesn't work well and why i don't reuse them. the only reusable seals i have found are Rotary Aviation encapsulated seals.
most of the time you get what you pay for, in this case it sounds to be true.
if you used RTV all around the seal though then this makes sense, i use hylomar in the seal grooves and RTV on the rotor housing sealing face so the seals come out with the rotor housing and can be plucked off, if the RTV is surrounding the seal then it will be in a bind to be removed and since the seals are small it doesn't take much to rip them apart.
but no, the seals coming apart even with care doesn't sound normal, i can pull out OEM seals in one piece after assembling an engine even with RTV but cleaning the seals is the part that doesn't work well and why i don't reuse them. the only reusable seals i have found are Rotary Aviation encapsulated seals.
most of the time you get what you pay for, in this case it sounds to be true.
if you used RTV all around the seal though then this makes sense, i use hylomar in the seal grooves and RTV on the rotor housing sealing face so the seals come out with the rotor housing and can be plucked off, if the RTV is surrounding the seal then it will be in a bind to be removed and since the seals are small it doesn't take much to rip them apart.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 08-13-06 at 04:58 PM.
08-13-06, 10:18 PM
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I just used a thin layer of rtv in the grooves and a thin layer on the housing facing, which was on their directions. Even so, these things didn't just break, they fragmented. I had every intent of reusing these so I was incredibly gentle, even so, the longest piece I've managed to save so far is about 3" long, and even it's not square anymore. I'm going with the OEM Mazda seals from here on. I was just trying to rebuild this one as cheaply as possible since I have hopes of getting a J-Spec TII engine setup before too much time goes by, but in the meantime I'd like the car to run for track days. Even when the coolant seals went it wasn't overheated drastically and the engine still ran strong and fine, for about five minutes at a time.
Footnote, I've got a VERY understanding wife. I've been gradually porting cleaning and rebuilding the engine in our kitchen over what's going on week three, and right now, the rear rotor housing is going through its final clean in our dishwasher.
Footnote, I've got a VERY understanding wife. I've been gradually porting cleaning and rebuilding the engine in our kitchen over what's going on week three, and right now, the rear rotor housing is going through its final clean in our dishwasher.
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08-13-06, 10:36 PM
#8
Well, having seen what happens to silicon if it catches fire (it totally melts and basically disentigrates) I would never want a silicon coolant seal. Even at engine bay temps, it seems to be slightly less sturdy than at room temp. Its still fine for vac lines, but I would never want it inside the engine. I agree with the above, only use genuine mazda seals.
08-13-06, 10:43 PM
#9
Originally Posted by Richter12x2
I just used a thin layer of rtv in the grooves and a thin layer on the housing facing, which was on their directions. Even so, these things didn't just break, they fragmented. I had every intent of reusing these so I was incredibly gentle, even so, the longest piece I've managed to save so far is about 3" long, and even it's not square anymore. I'm going with the OEM Mazda seals from here on. I was just trying to rebuild this one as cheaply as possible since I have hopes of getting a J-Spec TII engine setup before too much time goes by, but in the meantime I'd like the car to run for track days. Even when the coolant seals went it wasn't overheated drastically and the engine still ran strong and fine, for about five minutes at a time.
Footnote, I've got a VERY understanding wife. I've been gradually porting cleaning and rebuilding the engine in our kitchen over what's going on week three, and right now, the rear rotor housing is going through its final clean in our dishwasher.
Footnote, I've got a VERY understanding wife. I've been gradually porting cleaning and rebuilding the engine in our kitchen over what's going on week three, and right now, the rear rotor housing is going through its final clean in our dishwasher.
i'm going to be touted as a silicone **** especially since i started that vacuum hose thread about my FD, but whatever. people think this stuff is some kind of invincible miracle rubber. it's not! especially if it is peroxide cured and is of generally low quality. it has poor abrasion resistance and degrades from contact with hot petroleum products (gas and oil... not sure of ethelyne glycol antifreeze).
i feel the only benefit it has over buna-n (nitrile) rubber is a bit of heat resistance. you're lucky you pinched that seal!
my guess is something in the RTV like ammonia (guessing) degraded the silicone.
the stock seals would have come out whole and unscathed, especially if you had used hylomar in the grooves. vaseline/petroleum jelly causes them to stretch and swell, but they would still have been in one piece. on that note, mazda is retarded for recommending technicians hold in the seals with vaseline during assembly.
08-14-06, 01:31 AM
#10
Originally Posted by Sideways7
Well, having seen what happens to silicon if it catches fire (it totally melts and basically disentigrates) I would never want a silicon coolant seal. Even at engine bay temps, it seems to be slightly less sturdy than at room temp. Its still fine for vac lines, but I would never want it inside the engine. I agree with the above, only use genuine mazda seals.
OEM seals are silicone, a high temp silicone. most true high temp silicones are red in color which leads me to believe these black o-ring seals are not exactly as they describe also all the seals i have used have a layer of teflon on them to prevent the sides from sticking for a reason which also leads me to believe those seals are junk.
like i've said about a billion times, you can save but going cheap will bite you in the ***.
08-14-06, 09:19 AM
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Here's their first reply. It does kinda sound like a paypal complaint is the way to go. I was hoping they would do the right thing on their own though. Guess that's just wishful thinking 
Originally Posted by tuningsessions
Well, can you send us a picture of how the seals fell apart ? Did they break apart because this would be very unusual. The only thing we can do if they were defective is that we can send you a replacement set as part of our refund policy listed on our ebay auctions. This is of course you providing proof that you received faulty seals of course. Thank you. You can email your picture to the following e-mail.
sales@TuningSessions.com
sales@TuningSessions.com
08-14-06, 09:23 AM
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Here was my reply back to them.
Originally Posted by Richter12x2
I had one that fell out and was pinched between the sides, so I knew I would have to replace one of them, but when I disassembled the engine (only two hours after assembly) the seals broke apart in several pieces, the longest piece is probably 4 inches. It looks like they had some kind of reaction to the RTV. There didn't appear to be any problems with the seals at the time of assembly however. I'll take some pictures when I get home tonight, and if we've got film, I'll take a video of opening up a fresh layer, because I've only disassembled half of the engine so far. That way you can see how I'm taking it apart and the state I'm finding the seals in upon disassembly. A new set of seals wouldn't be helpful, unfortunately, because I've already ordered replacements from Mazda. If you can't refund even part of my money that's fine, but I want to help make sure that others don't receive faulty gaskets and have to double-buy them. One of the engine builders on the rx7club forum speculates that maybe it's due to using RTV on both sides of the gasket, (which is as per your directions) instead of using Mazda's recommended Hylomar. It still looks like the gasket has dissolved somewhat though, because the pieces I've cleaned out aren't square anymore, like they were when they went in.
Again, I'll send you photos and video of this when I get home. If we have a valid $50 solution to $95 worth of gaskets from Mazda, then I'm all for it, but if they're going to disassemble themselves in contact with RTV, then we're going to have to have a better solution, because currently I've spent $145 to get $95 worth of gaskets, which is definitely not the right answer.
Thank you for your help!
Again, I'll send you photos and video of this when I get home. If we have a valid $50 solution to $95 worth of gaskets from Mazda, then I'm all for it, but if they're going to disassemble themselves in contact with RTV, then we're going to have to have a better solution, because currently I've spent $145 to get $95 worth of gaskets, which is definitely not the right answer.
Thank you for your help!
08-14-06, 10:09 AM
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4 @ $~15 and 4@~$5 , and that's with a discount, plus shipping = $90 vs $45 for a SUPPOSEDLY superior seal. I didn't replace any of my hard seals either. I'm not looking for another 150,000 miles out of this engine, just another 20,000 while I get a j-spec TII engine in. Then I'll disassemble that one and rebuild it to last. This engine was running strong even with the blown coolant seals.
I don't need it to last 10 years, I just need it to last more than 10 minutes at a time.
Problem with filing a complaint through Paypal is that they required a money-order. That should have been my first clue, I guess. :P
I don't need it to last 10 years, I just need it to last more than 10 minutes at a time.
Problem with filing a complaint through Paypal is that they required a money-order. That should have been my first clue, I guess. :P
08-14-06, 01:20 PM
#15
i doubt any seal is much more superior than the OEM seals, they hold up on vehicles with up to 200k miles and the only reason they mainly fail is due to cracked irons which is due to other issues with the cooling system. in short i have never seen a coolant seal fail without a damn good reason.
08-14-06, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Karack
i doubt any seal is much more superior than the OEM seals, they hold up on vehicles with up to 200k miles and the only reason they mainly fail is due to cracked irons which is due to other issues with the cooling system. in short i have never seen a coolant seal fail without a damn good reason.
Just a footnote: Mazda experimented with a similiar design from the same company I used, but said "no thanks, too expensive". However they did survive all the tests mazda threw at them. The company also makes Reactor Vessel Head O-Rings. Good ****, but just a high dollar conversation piece.
08-14-06, 02:29 PM
#17
yea i remember your silver or was it gold coated seals. at $600 a set i don't exactly put them in any category except maybe the "fat wallet" one where you can just say it is in there. 
OEM seals work and they work well, i just don't see the reason to save $30 to try and go with a cheap alternative that just popped into the scene when saving $30 can wind up costing you more in time and money.
yea i know, you're just bragging, which is fine but the stockers work just fine.
OEM seals work and they work well, i just don't see the reason to save $30 to try and go with a cheap alternative that just popped into the scene when saving $30 can wind up costing you more in time and money.
yea i know, you're just bragging, which is fine but the stockers work just fine.
08-14-06, 07:38 PM
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Yeah, like my engine rebuild. Try to do it with as many of the original parts as possible then it's like "Well, the FD corner seal springs ARE better" then it's "Wow, now my side seals don't stick out as far as my corner seals do" Then "Well, if I'm going to reuse my apex seals, I may as well get new Apex seal springs". Now it's "Well, if I had to take the engine apart anyway, I may as well polish it to a mirror shine and paint it." (Incidentally, dishwashers shine everything up real nice, but won't remove carbon. ) Next thing you know you might as well have done a full rebuild on it in the first place.
(Incidentally, dishwashers shine everything up real nice, but won't remove carbon. ) Next thing you know you might as well have done a full rebuild on it in the first place.
08-15-06, 02:54 AM
#20
yea, well, i'm used to people ignoring me around here when it comes to pricing things. it seems all my suggestions cost people money or time so they are always bad suggestions until later on when things go south.
what's funny is i am about as thrifty on my suggestions as possible but it still never seems to be good enough.
what's funny is i am about as thrifty on my suggestions as possible but it still never seems to be good enough.
08-15-06, 06:58 AM
#21
Originally Posted by Karack
yea, well, i'm used to people ignoring me around here when it comes to pricing things. it seems all my suggestions cost people money or time so they are always bad suggestions until later on when things go south.
what's funny is i am about as thrifty on my suggestions as possible but it still never seems to be good enough.
what's funny is i am about as thrifty on my suggestions as possible but it still never seems to be good enough.
08-15-06, 08:15 AM
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Yeah, and I keep seeing and reading about rebuilding your RX7 engine will cost about $1000. And I'm working with a budget of about $300. :P In truth, I highly value your opinion, Karack, I just sometimes lack the patience to wait for it, and I feel bad bothering you for every little thing. And I did a search on those silicone seals on this site and found nothing at all, so I thought I'd give them a shot.
And it sucks to be me :P but at least I can comfort myself thinking maybe I took one for the team and noone else will try these 'miracle seals'. I should have guessed when his auction said "These seals are good up to 500 degrees, and most car engines like the rotary only run about 180 degrees", and honestly if I'd seen that he only accepted money orders, I wouldn't have done it at all, but by then it was too late :P
And it sucks to be me :P but at least I can comfort myself thinking maybe I took one for the team and noone else will try these 'miracle seals'. I should have guessed when his auction said "These seals are good up to 500 degrees, and most car engines like the rotary only run about 180 degrees", and honestly if I'd seen that he only accepted money orders, I wouldn't have done it at all, but by then it was too late :P
08-15-06, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by My5ABaby
Details on the seals?