SpooledupRacing

Ok here is the question.. I searched but it does not seem to be exact for my setup..

I am curious if I can run E85 on my car and what I would need to do to run it properly

S5 turbo engine
large street port
exhaust port
S4 T2 intakes
S4 turbo and manifold
28mm ported internal gate
3" downpipe
large FMIC
720cc secondaries
550cc primaries
stock T2 S4 ECU
255lph Walbro
SAFC piggy back

running between 10-12psi

could I run e85 on this car.. if so do U need to change anything or just pour in..

if not what would need to be changed..

mperformance

turbo cars love tu run E85, do a search on google turbo+E85+tuning. You need to run a bit richer but think of it as running inexpensive fuel (cost less at the pump) with all the characteristics of race gas. With the mods you got you dont need to a dime, but you need to play with your SAFC.

I am researching the same as I have a 60-1 with megasquirt controlling the whole deal, about the same psi boost range, but ethanol is not yet available commercially where I live until about 2 more months.

mperformance

also a forum member recommended increasing the oil mix in the gas... premixing is must for running 100% e85 as it is very dry...don't know if its so but it doesn't hurt to run premix with a higher dose.

Syncro

iTrader: (1)

Ethanol burns cooler than gas AFAIK - that's gewd, right?

87 t-66

iTrader: (133)

No. its not as efficient as gasoline which means you will need to upgrade your fuel system and burn more of it than gasoline...not very practical.

slick1286

From everything I have read about E85, it doesn't improve gas mileage because E85 isn't as efficient as gas. Yes it costs less but you fill up more.

If you do want to convert, the only thing I have heard of that you definitely need to do is change the fuel filter (probably both) and I think I heard you need to change the gas lines too (not 100% on that). And this isn't specific to 7s. This is to convert any car to a flex-fuel vehicle.

Also, a lot of people think that the production of ethanol doesn't provide a net gain in energy during production and raises the price of food.

SpooledupRacing

well the gain is in the ethanal.. from what I understand it has been proven that u make or can make more power on the E85 then on 91 octane..

I;m not worried about lowering gas cost.. as long as I don't spend more then I get out of it I am fine with that..

I don't think u have to change your lines

change the fuel filter, squeese more fuel out of the injectors and I am guessing it would be fine..

I already premix (1oz per gallon of gas)

I am mainly wondering if the stock ECU can interpet the extra octane.

I think after I get the turbo and exhaust on I will buy a wide band and possibly give it a try..

Turbo 3

iTrader: (3)

Please don't give advice about a topic you plainly don't know much about and can easily do some google research to find out but have not bothered.

E85 has an octane of 105, has the energy of 75,700 Btu/gallon, which is 34% less energy per gallon than gasoline. Gasoline: US gallon = 115,000 Btu.

Upgrading your fuel system because of BTU differences is one of the more ridiculous ideas ever proposed... The fuel system must be "upgraded" because alcohol will dry out the rubber fuel lines used for gasoline as well as fuel injector O-rings. You must use a material that is compatible with alcohol like Viton for example.

Regarding practicality - first of all you own a rotary. They suck for mileage in the first place. If you are converting to E85 for a turbo-charged application, you are typically doing so because you can run higher boost with less detonation potential, which again, is going to use more fuel no matter what type of fuel it is. Practical is what the car's purpose is for in the first place, including time spent at the pump.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel
Here's a good definition of ethanol

Here's an article for your review:

Ethanol 85 (E-85) Versus Unleaded Gasoline:
Comparison of Power and Efficiency in Single Cylinder, Air-Cooled Engines
Keith Warnock, Aaron Dickinson, George W. Wardlow, and Donald M Johnson
University of Arkansas

Introduction

With a rise in fuel prices and a decreasing stock of non-renewable resources there is a need to seek alternative fuels. Ethanol 85 (E- 85) is an alternative fuel that contains 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent unleaded gasoline. A benefit of burning E-85 over gasoline is reduced emissions of carbon monoxide, total hydrocarbons, and nitrogen oxides (Sheehan, et al. 2004). Ethanolpowered
vehicles reduce greenhouse gases by up to 37.1 percent and lower carbon monoxide levels by 25 to 30 percent over similar gasoline vehicles (Canadian Renewable Fuels Association, 2004). Although emissions are lower, the key drawback of ethanol is reduced fuel economy (Yacobucci, 2004). In a study on automobiles on E-85 and gasoline it was found that fuel efficiency was reduced 27 percent with ethanol (Sheehan, et al. 2004).

The purpose of this project was to compare the fuel consumption and power output of small gas engines using unleaded gasoline and Ethanol 85 (E-85) to determine if there was a difference in fuel efficiency or horsepower production. This was an undergraduate research project.

Methodology

The engines used were four identical, new Honda GX 110 2.61 kilowatt (3.5 horsepower) engines. Each was tested using a Land and Sea DYNOmite Kart Engine Dynamometer. Each engine was subjected to a thorough and identical “motor break in” process. Then, each engine was labeled and two were randomly selected to run on E-85 and two were randomly selected to run on unleaded gasoline. Ten dynamometer runs were done on each engine to determine peak
horsepower. The stock carburetor jets were not capable of making the E-85 engines run so replacement jets were ordered. One of the E-85 engines was tested on the dynamometer with various jet sizes (.060, .070, .075, .080, .085) to determine which jet produced the most horsepower. The .075 jet was thus used in both E-85 engines on the fuel consumption test.

To test the fuel consumption of each motor, the engines were connected to a graduated cylinder. Each engine was hooked to the dynamometer, accelerated to full throttle, and brought to a normal operating temperature. At full throttle a load was then placed on the engine to bring the revolutions per minute (rpms) down to 3000. The rpm was chosen a priori using the manufacturer’s recommended speed for operation. Each engine was then held at approximately 3000 rpms for exactly 15 minutes using the manually controlled load valve on the dynamometer.
The fuel consumption was measured using the graduated cylinder and a valve controlling fuel flow from the graduated cylinder. This allowed all fuel that was used in the fuel consumption tests to be measured.

Results

The first null hypothesis posited that there would be no significant (p < .05) difference between E-85 and gasoline in horsepower produced. This null hypothesis was rejected based on the results of an independent t-test, t (10) = 3.08; < .019. Engines run on E-85 produced more 2005 National AAAE Research Conference – Poster Session 557 horsepower. The second null hypothesis posited that there would be no significant (p < .05) difference between E-85 and gasoline in specific fuel consumption measured by pounds per horsepower-hour. This null hypothesis was rejected based on the results of an independent t-test, t (10) = 10.95; p < .009. As shown in Table 1, engines run on unleaded gasoline were
significantly more efficient than engines run on E-85.

Table 1
Fuel Efficiency and Horsepower by Fuel Type
Fuel Efficiency Horsepower
Fuel Type n M SD M SD
E-85 6 1.11 0.09 2.14 0.07
Unleaded Gasoline 6 0.50 0.10 1.90 0.18

Implications/Future Plans

The data indicated that E-85 has more horsepower generating potential than 87 octane unleaded gasoline, but has a higher consumption rate. On November 2, 2004 the price of E-85 was $1.81 and the price of 87 octane unleaded gasoline was $1.88 at the Petro Plus Station in Garnett, Kansas. At these fuel prices the cost to produce one horsepower per hour with E-85 is $0.31 and is $0.15with 87 octane unleaded gasoline. Thus, 87 octane unleaded gasoline is more efficient in
small gas engines. For E-85 to be more efficient the price per gallon of E-85 would have to be nearly 50 percent of the price per gallon of unleaded gasoline. Future plans include running engines for extended periods of time then disassembling the engines and measuring the internal parts to compare them for any differences in wear. This project will serve as a model for future undergraduate research.

Costs/Resources Needed

Qty. Resource Cost
1 Land and Sea Kart Engine Dynamometer $5,995.00
4 Honda GX 110 Engines $175.00 each
5 Gallons Ethanol-85 Blend $1.81 per gallon
5 Gallons Unleaded Gasoline $1.88 per gallon

References
Sheehan, J.; Aden, A.; Paustian, K.; Killian, K.; Brenner, J.; Walsh, M. and Nelson, R. (2004).
Energy and environmental aspects of using corn stover for fuel ethanol. Journal of Industrial
Ecology, Volume 7, Number 3-4, 117-146.
Canadian Renewable Fuels Association. (November 2, 2004). Emissions Impact of Ethanol.
[http://www.greenfuels.org/emissionimpact.html] Last accessed November 2, 2004.
Yacobucci, B. (2004). Alternative transportation fuels and vehicles: Energy, environment, and
development Issues. Congressional Research Service Report for Congress. Washington, D.C.:
Library of Congress.

SpooledupRacing

again I am not going to E85 for gas mileage but for the ability to run more boost with no detonation and make MORE POWER...

I dont care about gas mileage or price of gas...

87 t-66

iTrader: (133)

so what you are saying is you can use the same amount of e85 for the same hp numbers as regular gasoline?

veedubbed

No, but it is easier to make more power off of. The point is not for efficiency, but for power - the OP has stated that several times now.

SpooledupRacing

look I get about 8-10 mpg.. I drive a rotary and enjoy it.. I am looking to make the MOST power the safest..

thus why I am interested in the E85... any info to help me there is what I am looking for

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

FACTS:

Stock ECU will not supply enough fuel to compensate for the loss of available energy.

The stock ecu is not smart enough to interpret what fuel you put into it, therefore it will continue to deliver fuel at a rate designed for 87 octane which wont be enough for your setup no matter what setting you use for that SAFC (its possible with larger injectors and sufficient fuel delivery the SAFC would work, but I wouldnt put one of those things on my lawn mower). In addition the stock fuel pump will not even come close to the delivery you would require.

You are confusing two different concepts, one being octane which is simply a compressability rating, and the other being stored energy of which fuel has more of.

Simply put, alcohol has a higher knock resistance but it requires 30% more volume to do the same unit of work as regular dino fuel.

Rat

Evil Aviator

http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/conversion.php
http://www.drivingethanol.org/motors...teristics.aspx

john ward

iTrader: (7)

i have heard all the same. i have a friend using it in an old school 60's 400 b.o.p .block and yes i agree its not the same but he has to run so much more fuel its not worth it

arghx

iTrader: (3)

Look in the single turbo forum. The guys running E85 have big EVERYTHING. Big turbos, very large fuel systems (dual fuel pumps with something like primary's + 4 1680 cc injectors), and standalones tuned for a different lambda.

You can make a lot of power on E85, but it takes a **** ton of supporting mods and careful tuning. It's certainly not a good idea for someone with such a mild setup as this. There is no reason to run more than 91-93 octane on the stock turbo or even a small hybrid if you have a safe setup. You can't run enough boost (efficiently) to take advantage of it. I personally wouldn't bother with E85 unless you had at least a T67/T04R sized turbo and you were going for serious, serious power. Otherwise you are better off doing pump gas + water/alcohol injection on a turbo that is at least the size of a full (non-hybrid) 60-1.

If you want a lot of safe power your best bet is a full turbo upgrade with alcohol injection and very careful tuning. So go ahead and sock away $5000 at the bare minimum and get back to us.

SpooledupRacing

wow such {edited for flaming}...

This is all about learning, getting informed and seeing whats possible..

First off J-Rat.. u must not have read...
I dont have a stock fuel pump I run the Walbro 255lph
I dont have all stock injectors (I have 720cc secondaries)
I do runt he SAFC which will supply more fuel when added (it is a great fuel adder)

I curently run 93 octane and was told by Pinneapple Racing that with my large street port I shoudl look into running race gas if I go to the track.. Well I figured that was unnessesary but I thought the concept of non leaded 106 Octane would be a nice addition IF the stock computer with SAFC could run it..

aagain this is all abotu information for not just myself but anyone else who may be interested or pondered the idea..

Less bitching and ranting abotu how I am stupid for thinking.. and more on sharing any info you have that is pertinant to this thread..

thsi is not the lounge.. but a TECH section..

Kaotic Dan

No the stock computer cannot handle it. You need roughly 30% more fuel and last I checked the SAFC cannot deliver more than 20%. There ya go

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

LOL! Thats great, call me a ********?

I dont care if you have 720 injectors or a Whinebro pump, you still dont have enough suppoorting mods to run E-85. And I dont care what you say about the SAFC. It is horrible at turning injectors up, its better at turning them down, but hey, you know everything!

MrFuzzy

iTrader: (1)

http://e85forum.com/

Icemark

That earned him a warning/infraction.

You have to remember that he is convinced that the octane rating means the same thing as the BTU of the fuel. In his mind 105 octane will make him more power than 92 octane will, regardless of the reduced BTU of E85.

Evil Aviator

I think he realizes that, but it appears to me that he doesn't understand that there will be no gains until about 20psi or so, which is not possible with the setup he is running.

toplessFC3Sman

iTrader: (1)

Regardless of your reasons for running E85, there are 3 major points of concern to do a conversion.

First, you WILL need the capability to flow much more fuel than if you were running straight gasoline. This is because for the fuel to burn stoichiometrically, you need an AFR of 9.76, NOT 14.7 for gasoline. So, for the engine to even run (since spark-ignited engines require you to be pretty close to stoich to fire), you'd need to be able to flow approx 33% more fuel than you are right now, meaning bigger injectors, a more capable fuel pump, and an engine management system that will be able to provide that much more fuel. (and this isnt even considering the loss in volumetric efficiency for port-fuel-injection since you're displacing more air with fuel)

Now, since the heat of combustion of E85 (amount of energy you get out of burning a certain amount of E85) is approx 68% of gasoline, you would need to be injecting 50% more fuel than straight gasoline to have the same power output. Since stoichiometry from above specifies that you have 133% the amount of gasoline in there (instead of 150% needed for the same energy), at the same boost levels you will be losing 11% of the power you currently make on gasoline.

To combat this, you need to increase the boost (and can run a little more aggressive timing) to recoup the lost power, in turn requiring you flow more fuel. This is why the large single guys are running 2x 1000cc's and 4x 1680cc's injectors. The flow rates just make it necessary.

Second, the amount of ethanol in E85 does change. In the winter, for vaporization reasons, E85 is actually closer to 70% ethanol, meaning that you'll have more gasoline in there than you thought when tuning for E85, and your spark timing may be too far advanced, your fueling rates will be a bit too high (so you'll be running pretty rich), and the octane rating of the fuel will drop a little. There are GM sensors out there (some for ~$50, some for ~$500) that you can install in the gas tank that will inform your computer of the ethanol content of the fuel so you can tune for any time of year (and even gasoline), but I'm not sure how many engine management computers support this capability (Megasquirt does, but i dont know the depth in which you can change parameters based on ethanol content)

Thirdly, (and probably the easiest to remedy) ethanol is very corrosive to most of the plastics and rubbers in your fuel system. You'd need to replace the pump with one designed for E85 use, all the rubber fuel lines with more resistant ones, various seals on the injectors, the fuel filter etc. With the large amounts you'd be flowing though, you'd probably be replacing most or all of these components with larger ones anyway, so itd just be a matter of keeping an eye out for ones that were alcohol-resistant.

The 105 octane knock-resistance may be worth it if you plan on making tons of power, it just depends what your goals are.

Gene

iTrader: (1)

I always run 100 when I'm at the track with my TII, I figure the extra safety factor is worth it when things start to get hot. The price of normal gas is so high now that the price of 100 unleaded isn't so bad an extra expense anyway, and I suspect you'll spend more money messing with the car to get it running on E85 than you'll spend on the increased price of 100 in the car's remaining track lifetime. Simple math... if I spend $4.25 per gallon for 93 or $7.50 for 100, and go through 10 gallons per day at a typical DE track event, then it's a difference of $32.50 per track day, so it would take me ~30 track days, or 15 track weekends, to spend $1000 more on fancy fuel than I would spend at minimum anyway.

MrFuzzy

iTrader: (1)

1. Is E85 Ethanol corrosive?

Yes ethanol is corrosive, but not very much. Gasoline is also corrosive. Ethanol is biodegradable in water. So it has a tendency to contain and attract water. It is not the corrosive properties of ethanol that can cause damage to your vehicle; it is the water which can rust a vehicle’s fuel system from the inside out. Today’s vehicles (since mid 1980s) have fuel systems which are made to withstand corrosive motor fuels and rust from water. Also today’s distilling processes are superior to way back when. We now have better techniques for drying out ethanol or reducing the water content. Ethanol made today contains up to 15% less water than it did in the 80s.



2. If I put E85 in my gas tank will eat it away?

If your car was built in the old days, it had a lead coated, steel tank. The water in ethanol would cause the tank to rust from the inside out. The government mandated that all gas in the USA contain 10% ethanol to help reduce tail pipe emissions. In the 1980s, automakers made vehicles with fuel systems to be ethanol and rust tolerant. Gas tanks began to contain polymers and Teflon which are extremely durable.

3. If I put E85 ethanol in my non-Flex Fuel vehicle will it ruin it?

One tank won’t hurt. Some dealers are spreading rumors and charging $300-$3000 for one tank of accidental E85 use. This use may cause misfiring and a rough ride. Your check engine light will come on. If you should accidentally or on purpose put E85 in your vehicle, drain the tank, put in regular gas and all will be well. If you use E85 without a conversion kit or non-Flex Fuel capable vehicle for an extended period, you can damage your engine.

4. Will ethanol burn up my engine?

Ethanol has a lower ignition point than gas. Ethanol has about 115 octane and E85 has 105 octane. It burns cooler and will extend engine life by preventing the burning of engine valves and prevent the build-up of olefins in fuel injectors, keeping the fuel system cleaner.

5. Will ethanol ruin gaskets, seals, rings and more?

This is true. Running 100% ethanol or alcohol in an engine can cause damage. Ethanol has no lubricating properties. People who run E100 in their vehicles will add special oil to their ethanol to act as a lubricant to the fuel pump, injectors and the top engine. Those who don’t add the oil end up destroying their engine.

That is why we use E85. The 15% gasoline acts as a lubricant to all vital components and allows a long and trouble free engine life.

Today's vehicles are built to withstand the corrosive effects of water in ethanol and gasoline. Any vehicle built since 1985 will have no ethanol related issues. Older vehicles that used more steel in the fuel systems or cork gaskets will have issues from long term exposure.

6. Will E85 eat my rubber fuel lines?

This is another myth from the old days. Rubber technology has significantly advanced so the concerns of a 20 year old car or newer having issues like this are extremely rare. Plus the 15% gas will help keep lines lubricated.

7. Will E85 destroy my fuel pump?

E85 won’t destroy your fuel pump. If you convert a high mileage vehicle to Flex Fuel, the E85 will cause the sediment in the gas tank to dissolve and then get sucked up by the fuel pump. It is believed that this sediment may shorten the life of the pump of your higher mileage vehicle (100,000+). Fuel pumps are not expensive to replace. After thousands of conversion kits sold, we have had our first report of a failed fuel pump. The vehicle was a 1994 Audi with 200,000 miles on it. It was the original fuel pump. The owner blamed E85. His mechanic said it was just time. A fuel pump that lasted this long is impressive.

8. Will it take more than a gallon of energy to make a gallon of E85?

This was true at one point in time. Today’s advanced technology and distilling processes actually create considerably more units of ethanol than units of energy used. The processes continues to advance and the ratio will continue to increase.


http://www.driveflexfuel.com/faq.php

The mustang guys in the midwest have been running e85 for years in stock systems with no problems. Take it for what its worth.