-TAL-

Does anyone have one of these Upgraded Stock location top mount intercoolers?

Any feedback on them, i am going to run a hybrid, and would be alot cheaper than a fmic and a radiator at the present.

Thanks

ilike2eatricers

I know someone who has one for sale if you want one. PM for details.

-TAL-

Anyone have any experience or more info on this?

jdmsuper7

iTrader: (1)

Its quite a fair bit bigger than the stock TMIC, and seems to work reasonably well. However, WARNING: plan on having a elbow welded to the outlet side as well as running a Greddy TB compression tube. My ARC intercooler's outlet comes out right infront of the end of the TB, as opposed to being offest toward the rear of the car so as to accept teh stock pipe routing. I imagine there is a piece that came with the intercooler to help alieviate this problem, but after much searching I have yet to find it. I'd be curious how others have solved this problem, or if there actually is a piece, or if my intercooler just sucks.

NZConvertible

Unless you can get one cheap, I wouldn't bother. They're ridiculously expensive new, and while they might flow better than stock, they're not going to cool that much better. You'll still have the same amont of cooling air entering the scoop and you'll still suffer from the same terrible heat soak.

gingenhagen

why not use water injection? cheaper than front mount and does the same thing.

DoStampIt

No reason your can't.....just not many have gone this route...

sleeperfc

top mount inter heaters are no fun... the first pull of the day is nice.. then the damn thing gets hot and stays hot.

for the same price you could do a ebay custon fmic setup. 24x12x3 core, ic piping kit with couplers and clamps, and a tb elbow from higgi. $400

NZConvertible

It doesn't do exactly the same thing. Because the water is displacing air, and air = power, the gains from lower intake temps are effectively cancelled out. You can tune for the lower temps and make more power, but with an intercooler you don't need to do that retuning. The denser air is compensated for by the ECU. You also need to be careful tuning an engine with water injection, because if you tune to make max power you risk engine damege if you run out of water.

Both methods have pros and cons. This list is from AutoSpeed:

Pros:
Very effective at preventing detonation
System components can be spread around car
Can be used to inject octane booster
Generally low cost
No intake flow restriction
Reduces emissions

Cons:
Requires regular filling of water tank
System breakdown can be difficult to recognise
Large filled water tank is heavy
Variable flow systems are complex
Effectiveness will vary depending on weather

gingenhagen

Is not the main purpose of a fmic to decrease intake temps so as to reduce knock, therefore allowing you to run higher boost? That's why I say it does the same thing, 'cause water injection will allow you to run even higher boost (than with a fmic) with even more reliability.

Don't remember the number exactly, but I think the water will only take up 5% of the space. But then, it allows you to run the best afr ratio instead of running rich to prevent detonation, which is a 8-15% gain. Then add on your gains from added boost.

And running out of water I see as the same problem as running out of oil or gas. You have a sensor that tells you when you're running low, so it's time to get a fillup. Ignore that sensor, and you'll be in for a whole world of hurt. If you're really that worried, you can also always wire up your sensor so that low water will trigger your car to run low boost (gar, where did that post go on how that guy did it).

Sorry, but I'm kind of biased in favor of WI. Your pro/con list doesn't really do it that much justice. WI has fmic beat in every single way, except that you'll have to refill the water tank (which I dont' really see as much of a con).

NZConvertible

Actually you want to prevent knock, not just reduce it, but you are correct.

Why do you think you can run more boost with water injection than you can with a FMIC? And why do you think it's more reliable?

The amount of space the water takes up depends entirely on how much you inject. It's not a fixed number. But it still a fact that without extra tuning a FMIC will definitely increase power but water injection probably won't. Unless you have full control over both fuel and ignition tuning (and not many FC owners do), a FMIC is likely to be a more cost-effective upgrade. This is especially true when you compare the price of a decent water injection system to a custom FMIC (rather than a kit).

You've just described the benefits of a FMIC exactly...

Look at the cons list a bit more objectively. They are all perfectly valid points, and are significant disadvantages compared to an intercooler. Water injection definitely has some strong advantages, but if is a long way from having an intercooler "beat in every way". I actually quite like water injection, but I'm not convinced it's an alternative to a decent intercooler on your average street car.

gingenhagen

I dunno. I would think that since water injection is able to prevent knock better than a fmic, you would be able to run more boost.

I kind of assumed that he would have an aftermarket ECU with his hybrid. My mistake.

I don't quite understand. I've found water injection to be quite cheaper than fmic. Probably something I'm not getting here...

Ah, too hard to be objective... But for me, it all comes down to this. An intercooler is there to prevent knock, and water injection just plain does a better job of it. Though could you elaborate a bit more on those disadvantages? If those disadvantages are so serious that it would be wiser for me to choose something that isn't able to reduce knock as well, then I will have to change my chosen path.



P.S. Sorry TAL for hijacking this thread, but I don't think that top mount is going to cut it. You'd be better off saving up your money and spend it more efficiently.

NZConvertible

But why do you keep saying that water injection is able to prevent knock better than a FMIC? What's this based on?

That's why I said "This is especially true when you compare the price of a decent water injection system to a custom FMIC (rather than a kit)". If you have the skills (or connections) and a bit of knowledge, you can knock up a decent FMIC quite cheaply. Because of it's relative complexity, I'd rather buy a quality water injection system than do a DIY one, and an Aquamist system for example starts at ~US$500 for a basic "dumb" system and the price climbs rapidly if you add proper control.

Requires regular filling of water tank: pretty obvious.

System breakdown can be difficult to recognise: Unless you're keeping a very close eye on an intake temp gauge, how will you know if the system has stopped working? With an intercooler, the only failure mode is a leak, which will be far more easily noticed.

Large filled water tank is heavy: pretty obvious.

Variable flow systems are complex: Not entirely sure (not my list remember), but for complex, I'd read expensive. Variable flow systems are quite different to the basic pump/nozzle/pressure-switch set-ups.

Effectiveness will vary depending on weather: Water injection works primarily on heat being absorbed during the evaporation of the water spray. The higher the humidity of the air, the less effective this process will be. Intercoolers are affected too, but to a much lesser degree. High air temps affect both systems, but that's more of a summer problem. High humidity can occur year-round.

These are not reasons to abandon your choice, just points to be aware of. I'm not trying to crap all over water injection, just point out the realities. I did list the pros too remember. Personally I'd never fit water injection with the stock IC, because that won't solve its main problem; terrible heat soak. So if I did fit water injection, it would be after fitting a FMIC.

Ditto on all points.

gingenhagen

Hum...I guess that's my problem then. I thought water injection did a better job of preventing knock. Now why did I think that... I think it's about time I ugpraded my main memory.

-TAL-

speaking of a thread jack.

My main reason for not wanting a fmic at the current time, is $$, and most people with a front mount also seem to need an aftermarket radiator to keep the temps down.

Dorifter_LEXX

iTrader: (3)

i'm debating on the same thing as you are. But like what everyone else says... even if it flows better than the stock tmic, heat soak will still be the problem. It also looks like the ARC tmic doesn't even have a heat shield like the stock one.

87WhiteComet

You could fab a heat shield to it not to mention you may be able to use the stock one. I'm also looking to use an aftermarket TMI whether its watercooled or just a bigger/better design unit. I really think people jump onto the FMI band wagon way too fast. There's plenty of ways you can deal with the heat soak (though economical maybe not but heat can be eliminated). I'm prolly going to make an intercooler sprayer and may have the intercooler coated with a thermal dispersent and have the heatshield coated with ceramic. A TMI will offer better throttle response/turbolag, less complex system and in my opinion they look alot better and leave room to place other coolers in the front. If your looking for something of really good quality check out CarTech, they did a TMI for grassroots motorsports it was a watercooled unit that had 86-90% efficiency which is better than any aircooled units you'll probably find.

iceblue

If that always solved the problem. I now have the car striped down again and doing allot of ducting work and engine bay heat measures. FMIC with Koyo RAD. Over heats in 15min of traffic in sunny Florida. Well climbs to 3/4th's, and fine at night. Allot of other members in hot climates also experience this.


Your posts on WI have made my impression skewed. I have thought WI was a powered water bottle that used spray nozzles to spray the IC when wanted. This cooling the aluminum down quickly to allow more efficient cooling. Is this right? The impression you guys have gave me was like custom or pre-made IC that had build WI inside it to do some unknown form of cooling.

gingenhagen

yes, you can spray water on the ic to make it a bit cooler. evos have that little gimmick. I see that as pretty much useless. We're talking about spraying atomized water into the intake charge, which works its magic inside the engine. Especially in turbos, heat becomes so great that there is a much increased risk of detonation. In an attempt to fix this, you then run your car very rich, which works because the fuel helps cool down a bit. Water injection however solves the cooling problem, since water is 6 times more effective than fuel at the cooling job. This then allows you to run your car at the correct air-fuel ratio, therefore extracting maximum power. And of course, there's the added benefit of being able to turn up the boost.

If there are any mistakes in my rough explanation, the following white paper will probably smooth them out.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/info/docum...rinjection.htm

Wankel7

You do not inject water in your intake for the lower intake temps.

You inject water into your intake because of water's amazing ability to absorb heat.

If combustion temps that are way to high (say from a lean condition) is what leads to detonation.

The water absorbs this heat. The same way that fuel does when you have enrichen your fuel mixture to prevent detonation.

James

gingenhagen

If you're not willing to spend the money on the fmic or radiator, go spend it on your rebuild then. Or I guess you could just run low boost levels on your hybrid, such that the TMIC would be sufficient.

NZConvertible

You're thinking of an intercooler water spray, where water is spraying onto the outside of the IC. Water injection is where waster is sprayed at high pressure into the intake system itself. The physics behind the two systems are quite similar (latent heat of vapourisation) but they are certainly not the same thing. Check out gingenhagen's link.

It is not a gimmick and is far from useless. If done properly it is very effective at lowering intake temps.

gingenhagen

I was just saying it seems pretty gimmicky on the evo what with the little button and all you press to spray it...

NZConvertible

But it works. It is not "pretty much useless" like you just claimed. It's a bit silly to make performance claims about IC sprayers based on a dash button. Besides, the Evo's IC sprayer has both automatic and manual control. That's why the dash button has AUTO and MAN written on it...