Do I really need a wideband now?!
09-12-07, 02:25 PM
#5
RETed: are you suggesting that you can tune your AFR's via buttdyno? Or are you trying to hint at another form or tuning (EGT you've mentioned in the past?).
You should be more specific because some people here take your opinion as one of the most reliable sources of information and if some
reads your post and assumes the Wideband is useless and "pretends" like they know what they're doing they will destroy their motors. What do you mean by your last post?
You should be more specific because some people here take your opinion as one of the most reliable sources of information and if some
reads your post and assumes the Wideband is useless and "pretends" like they know what they're doing they will destroy their motors. What do you mean by your last post?
09-12-07, 02:31 PM
#6
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Posts: 30,841
Received 2,604 Likes
on
1,847 Posts
RETed: are you suggesting that you can tune your AFR's via buttdyno? Or are you trying to hint at another form or tuning (EGT you've mentioned in the past?).
You should be more specific because some people here take your opinion as one of the most reliable sources of information and if some reads your post and assumes the Wideband is useless and "pretends" like they know what they're doing they will destroy their motors. What do you mean by your last post?
You should be more specific because some people here take your opinion as one of the most reliable sources of information and if some
reads your post and assumes the Wideband is useless and "pretends" like they know what they're doing they will destroy their motors. What do you mean by your last post?
09-12-07, 02:33 PM
#7
well technically if you new your exact fuel pressure, injector flow rates, engine dynamics (VE, efficiency, etc), intake temps, boost, etc you could calculate exactly what injector p/w you would need to be in a certain AFR LOL
maybe he means just get on a dyno and tune for max power, and that will result in perfect AFRs. too rich = less power.. too lean = less power
maybe he means just get on a dyno and tune for max power, and that will result in perfect AFRs. too rich = less power.. too lean = less power
Trending Topics
09-12-07, 10:47 PM
#8
Lives on the Forum
I never said it was "useless".
I stated it is not "needed".
Wideband just makes it quicker to tune the fuel portion.
If you know what you are doing, yes, you can tune it via butt dyno.
I use EGT gauges cause I can tune both fuel and ignition timing.
How did you think people tune (fuel) before the advent of the wideband UEGO sensor?
Go argue with the legions of domestic V8 heads who tune their cars just by pulling spark plugs...
-Ted
I stated it is not "needed".
Wideband just makes it quicker to tune the fuel portion.
If you know what you are doing, yes, you can tune it via butt dyno.
I use EGT gauges cause I can tune both fuel and ignition timing.
How did you think people tune (fuel) before the advent of the wideband UEGO sensor?
Go argue with the legions of domestic V8 heads who tune their cars just by pulling spark plugs...
-Ted
09-12-07, 11:21 PM
#9
yea, but since rotaries are a lot more sensitive to detonation, i'd be much more hesitant about trying to base it just off of the plugs and the butt-dyno.
It made getting a drivable tune much easier for me, especially since I was starting from scratch for fuel tables. Plus, im an engineer... i like knowing as much as i can about a system directly instead of inferring it thru EGT.
It made getting a drivable tune much easier for me, especially since I was starting from scratch for fuel tables. Plus, im an engineer... i like knowing as much as i can about a system directly instead of inferring it thru EGT.
09-13-07, 12:06 AM
#10
Canned. I got CORNED!
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Appleton, WI
Posts: 1,029
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sorry, but even the most sensitive butt can't tell differences between tenths of an AFR difference.
Can you tune without it? Can you start a fire with two sticks?
Yes, and yes....but why would you want to when you have a wideband and a lighter?
Can you tune without it? Can you start a fire with two sticks?
Yes, and yes....but why would you want to when you have a wideband and a lighter?
09-13-07, 06:00 AM
#11
Lives on the Forum
yea, but since rotaries are a lot more sensitive to detonation, i'd be much more hesitant about trying to base it just off of the plugs and the butt-dyno.
It made getting a drivable tune much easier for me, especially since I was starting from scratch for fuel tables. Plus, im an engineer... i like knowing as much as i can about a system directly instead of inferring it thru EGT.
It made getting a drivable tune much easier for me, especially since I was starting from scratch for fuel tables. Plus, im an engineer... i like knowing as much as i can about a system directly instead of inferring it thru EGT.
-Ted
09-13-07, 06:05 AM
#12
Lives on the Forum
If you're tuning your fuel maps to the ragged edge where one tenth matter to you, then the wideband is paramount.
Luckily, you don't need to tune that precise to get a rotary driveable...or streetable for that matter.
Can you tune without it? Can you start a fire with two sticks?
Yes, and yes....but why would you want to when you have a wideband and a lighter?
Yes, and yes....but why would you want to when you have a wideband and a lighter?
I'm sure you know what their disadvantages are, so I don't need mention them, right?
-Ted
09-13-07, 08:36 AM
#15
Rotary Enthusiast
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: MO
Posts: 850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
maybe i missed something or everyone went off on their own rant but the OP never said what "NOW" means. whats changed that you may need one NOW?
Ted you are making quite an argument for a newb to read this and go try and tune with an EGT gauge and blow up his engine. it would be much easier for him to read a number and say OH GO RICHER.
Ted you are making quite an argument for a newb to read this and go try and tune with an EGT gauge and blow up his engine. it would be much easier for him to read a number and say OH GO RICHER.
09-13-07, 11:09 AM
#18
Lives on the Forum
-Ted
09-13-07, 09:43 PM
#20
Lives on the Forum
It's just a rebadged Westach unit?
It's also a lot more expensive than the original one.
I mean if we're comparing that single unit to two separate EGT gauges, I can see where price difference might be of significance.
...or trying to conserve dash space for all your gauges.
I guess it's just as personal preference that I would go with two, separate gauges myself.
A single EGT gauge plumbed into the downpipe is fine for most applications.
I prefer almost anything Japanese.
I'm partial to Trust / GReddy units myself.
The EGT gauge does work, if you know what you're doing.
Like all tools, they are effective if you know how to utilize them.
Sure, the EGT gauge doesn't react as quick as a wideband UEGO, but that doesn't mean it's useless.
STREET tuning (in my book) doesn't mean tuning to the ragged edge.
Most tuners will run the engine on the rich side for safety sake, and it's this safety margin that allows you to be able to use just an EGT gauge (just to tune for fuel).
Like I said before, if you want to get that last ~5% for tuning the fuel, you do need the wideband.
It's just that I don't want to lower my safety margin for street tuned vehicles just to get that last ~5%...
One of the secrets of tuning with an EGT gauge is how fast the EGT changes temps.
This is easier to detect on an analog sweep gauge versus a digital one spitting out numbers.
Oops, I've talked too much already...
-Ted
It's also a lot more expensive than the original one.
I mean if we're comparing that single unit to two separate EGT gauges, I can see where price difference might be of significance.
...or trying to conserve dash space for all your gauges.
I guess it's just as personal preference that I would go with two, separate gauges myself.
A single EGT gauge plumbed into the downpipe is fine for most applications.
Which one do you recommend?
I'm partial to Trust / GReddy units myself.
I basically wanted you to elaborate on why it wasn't "needed, if you know what you're doing." 
Like all tools, they are effective if you know how to utilize them.
Sure, the EGT gauge doesn't react as quick as a wideband UEGO, but that doesn't mean it's useless.
STREET tuning (in my book) doesn't mean tuning to the ragged edge.
Most tuners will run the engine on the rich side for safety sake, and it's this safety margin that allows you to be able to use just an EGT gauge (just to tune for fuel).
Like I said before, if you want to get that last ~5% for tuning the fuel, you do need the wideband.
It's just that I don't want to lower my safety margin for street tuned vehicles just to get that last ~5%...
One of the secrets of tuning with an EGT gauge is how fast the EGT changes temps.
This is easier to detect on an analog sweep gauge versus a digital one spitting out numbers.
Oops, I've talked too much already...
-Ted
09-14-07, 01:42 PM
#21
hmmm, well I'll continue reading up on EGTs and how to properly use it for tuning but thanks for pointing me in the right direction, very much appreciated. I figured I should go take a look at GRM and see if I can find a good article or two.
09-14-07, 02:04 PM
#22
Rotary Enthusiast
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: MO
Posts: 850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
no i wasnt implying that u cant blow up an engine with tuning AFR. if a newb has a choice between AFR and EGT guess which one will be easier and he will have more support with? how many people here tune rotaries using just EGT? hmmmmm
everything has its place. i dont see how you wont have a hell of a time tuning best cruising AFR with just EGT though.
Last edited by imloggedin; 09-14-07 at 02:09 PM.
09-15-07, 01:53 AM
#23
Lives on the Forum
No.
If there is any implication, it's the fact that: I can tune with just an EGT gauge.
How do you tune ignition timing with a wideband?
The ones that know how...
You'd be surprised who does and who doesn't.
I've been a proponent of tuning with an EGT gauge for a long time now.
Even when certain tuners used to chastize me for doing so; it's those same tuners that are now using EGT gauges...go figure.
Cruising fuel tuning is the easiest.
Just lean out the fuel until you hit lean surge.
You don't need need a wideband...hell, you don't need an EGT gauge either...to do this.
The EGT gauge becomes useful in the fact that after a certain RPM, running it lean under cruise gets the EGT's REALLY HOT - something the wideband will NOT tell you.
How hot?
I've seen EGT's hit 1050C which is like 2000F!!!
Although there was no hint of lean surge, I had to add a little more fuel just to cool everything down.
Like I said before...you need to know how to use the tools to take full advantage of them...
-Ted
If there is any implication, it's the fact that: I can tune with just an EGT gauge.
no i wasnt implying that u cant blow up an engine with tuning AFR. if a newb has a choice between AFR and EGT guess which one will be easier and he will have more support with?
how many people here tune rotaries using just EGT? hmmmmm
You'd be surprised who does and who doesn't.
I've been a proponent of tuning with an EGT gauge for a long time now.
Even when certain tuners used to chastize me for doing so; it's those same tuners that are now using EGT gauges...go figure.
everything has its place. i dont see how you wont have a hell of a time tuning best cruising AFR with just EGT though.
Just lean out the fuel until you hit lean surge.
You don't need need a wideband...hell, you don't need an EGT gauge either...to do this.
The EGT gauge becomes useful in the fact that after a certain RPM, running it lean under cruise gets the EGT's REALLY HOT - something the wideband will NOT tell you.
How hot?
I've seen EGT's hit 1050C which is like 2000F!!!
Although there was no hint of lean surge, I had to add a little more fuel just to cool everything down.
Like I said before...you need to know how to use the tools to take full advantage of them...
-Ted
09-15-07, 10:56 AM
#25
Rotary Enthusiast
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: MO
Posts: 850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i never said it couldnt be done. its definitely a useful tool. your right you cant tune your ignition without it very easily, but that doesnt mean you should use ONLY it to tune. your the first person ive ever heard promote that.
btw im not about to go lean out my 7 like you said. im very insecure with lean conditions because not all of us are rich enough to go buy a rebuild kit anytime (or have the spare parts).
again im not denying how useful an EGT gauge is, just that if a newb has a choice between a wideband or egt they should choose wideband because theres more info on tuning with them.