Yeah, I think either the gauge or pressure sender is out, because it didn't work when we purchased the car.

 

Smoke tested.
No leaks at all, it's sealed up tight.

Going to visually check how much fuel is being sprayed by the primaries, just to get an idea of flow, make sure it's not too far out there.

 

Check the ECU for error codes. You may be in limp mode due to a malfunctioning sensor.
http://fc3spro.com/TECH/HOWTO/ERRORC...KI/kerror.html

 

I'll check if you insist, but the check engine light is not coming on.

 

ONLY OMP is limp mode triggering.

AND it's AN S4!!

You dont have a check engine light and you have to check them diffrently then s5's.

 

Tested fuel line pressure, and getting 40psi with engine off and fuel pump test connector shorted.
Tested right before the secondary fuel rail.

Are you still suggesting I check for codes?

I can do that after I attempt another start, I had the battery terminals disconnected while removing the intake to check for leaks.

Any other suggestions while i'm at it?

 

it's more difficult on s4's you have to build a little resistor/led unit. can you test the pump without a return, to get an idea of your max pump pressure, although, it sounds like you have enough pressure to at least run longer then that.
http://www.teamfc3s.org/info/article...odes/main.html

if you want to feel proud of your diagnostic skillz, try some back probing
http://mazdarx7.iougs.com/faqdiagnosing.shtml

 

Found a small fuel leak while testing, the oring on one of the primaries is jacked up, so replacing that here in a bit, and will get back to troubleshooting.

I'm going to push it out of the barn, and try to fire it up and see how long I can keep it running, let the seals bed in better.

 

put some patrolium jelly around the oring when sliding it, and it sounds like this could be the problem.

 

Petroleum-based products can soften certain types of rubber so use something like dielectric grease instead.

 

yeah and shaving your hair makes it grow back thicker.
35 years of shop experience says, gtfo.
Beside's if it's not being replaced, it could use a little swelling to make a better seal. the softing effect is desireable.

 

So i put new orings on the top, replaced the dust covers, and put some 10w-30 on the lower gromets to soften them up a little, all orings got a good dip in 10w-30 to help slide in.

Fuel leak fixed, i closed off the fuel system and let it pressurize, and it's tight now.

Still not wanting to start without oil.

I put about an ounce of oil in each housing, and tried to start it, but the battery is pretty low, so I have it on the charger now (I think it may be going bad already, long story involving a tractor)

Anyway, gonna run into town to pick up my check and renew the tags on the GXL, I'll try another start when i get back, the plan is to just keep it running as long as possible.

 

Damn.
So got back, tried to crank it over, it spun a little bit, but sounded like it was going to try.
I tried starting it 4 times, no more than 10 seconds at a time.
On the 4th try the battery sounded like it was getting low, and then it stopped trying.
I turn the key, hear and feel a clunk, and the motor just barely turns, it is turning though.

The starter tested good at the auto parts store a couple of days ago when I had a similar problem. I ran new grounds from negative to chassis, and chassis to block. That corrected it the first time.

Think I have the same issue with the hot side?

--------------Edit-----------------
Btw, put the battery on the charger, still reading 90%, I still charged it back up to 100% and tried again, same thing.

 

It seized up, motor won't turn by hand either... ****.

Thinking that one of the rotors might be seized on the e-shaft, because the starter will bump it over a little at a time, and when I first went out and tried starting it I got about 1 full rotation before it went back to the same thing.

Is there something I could have missed during the build that would have compromised the lubricating barrier between the rotor bearing and the e-shaft (such as oil pressure or flow)

I used all s4 housings and s4 front cover.
I didn't use a gasket for the front cover, just some RTV and the o-ring per the mazdatrix instructions.

I guess a better question. Short of tearing it back apart, is there anything else I can try to unstick it?

 

rolled apex seal?

Did you measure the point "A" and compair to that of B,C,and D? per FSM.
It would indicate a warped housing

I've only had 1 motor seize a bearing and i was going about 70 mph, it locked the motor up, then i let the clutch out, it unlocked and went about 3 miles before locking up the final time, i don't think starting it over caused it to heat the bearings enough to do that.

Take it out, Tear it down, and call it a learning experiance.

 

Everything your saying makes sense, but I don't think rolling a seal or a warped housing would be the issue here.
They were new 2 piece RA seals, I checked a full rotation of each rotor on the e-shaft during assembly, the seals barely extended half way, I think it would take a lot of force to twist a seal out of one of those grooves, It'd be more likely one snapped in half, and that half is sticking.

The housings looked fine, and remember, the original point of failure was a stuck apex seal, just a small nick in the apex seal groove that caught on a seal, and that has been sanded completely flat, no other damage was observed.

I know you have a lot of experience in this field, and I'm not saying your dead wrong, but the scenario you described just doesn't sound to be likely.

I just got the kitchen cleaned up, I don't think my wife will let me tear the engine apart again in here, and it's very dusty/dirty in the barn, not a good place for it.

What I think I'll do is pull the plugs, remove exhaust mani. and get a flashlight.
Drop the tranny so I can try turning it by the flywheel nut to get a little more torque.

Visually verify apex seal integrity and function by pushing on them individually. If I find they are all good, then what would be my next step?

 

Maybe something fell down the intake, who knows?

Maybe something went wrong during your front rotating assembly process. IE, the bearing was never in place properly and fell, but you still tightened the pulley.

If you cannot turn the engine, something very very wrong has happened and you'll have to tear it down.

 

There are many other things here, something falling in the intake AFTER you've had the car running for 20 secs at 3k is [most likely]not one of them.
Bearing's under the front cover(brakage, maybe some trash between the chain links, although i've never seen it)

I think if you test the spring tension of the seals threw the exhaust, and they're fine.. well you still have a locked motor, and turning it over to get to each one could be causing damage if the problem is a corner seal, or a side seal.

I've pulled a part 3 motors this year that were locked up, one apex seal came out after 170k reliable miles, one had been in a junk yard for a REALLY long time, and the other had the Triangle apex seal broke and go caugh between the rotor and side housing. it was cut by the intake port and rotor. The last one ruined the rotor, housing, and middle iron. the front iron survived.

 

Theres another good one, I'll for sure take the front cover off and inspect all I can there.
I'm reluctant to pull the engine because it means pushing the car back into the barn, climbing into the rafters to attach the come-along, then from there the tedious process of actually draining all the fluids again and pulling it out.

I've got 2 months into this damn car now, lol, i don't want to spend another two tearing down the engine and re-installing it unless it's absolutely necessary.

 

Update:

Just purchased a used engine to drop in for the time being.

When draining the fluids I noticed a major problem.
The oil filter pedestal was bone try, and even had a little dust on it after I removed the filter. The filter looks like it's never even passed oil.

Doing a little research, I noticed a gasket that I forgot / didn't notice during disassembly.

http://mazdatrix.com/getprice.asp?partnum=14-171B-0810
Gasket for oil pickup tube.

If I forgot or didn't use this gasket, would that prevent any oil flow?

The engine has had maybe a total of 120 seconds run time, so I don't know if I fucked it up yet or not, but would like some second opinions.

Should I swing by black dragon on the way down there this morning, pick up the pick up gasket, throw it on the car and see if it works? Or am I just being too optimistic.

 

I would imagine the oil pump would still draw enough of a vacuum to draw oil up out of the pan even with the gasket on the pickup tube missing. That's not a pressurized area; it's all vacuum.

Did you use the front cover o-ring?

Also, a test I like to perform on each build is to verify physical oil moving after first start if the oil pressure gauge doesn't do anything (such as can be the case with an electric unit) - clamp my hand around the front oil cooler line to make sure it balloons with pressure.

What was in the oil when you drained it? Any metal particles (copper)?

B

 

Nothing, it was actually still so clean I used a quart of it in a friends truck.
It looks like there was absolutely no oil circulation at all.
Yes, used the o-ring on the front cover. Actually followed the mazdatrix guide and used RTV instead of a front cover gasket to help with strength there.

You say that area should be all vacuum, could the oil pump have been sucking air through where the pickup tube bolts on since there was no gasket? What else would cause no oil flow?

 

That works.

Admittedly, I don't know, as I've never done that before. That could be it but I can't imagine how it wouldn't pull some oil through.

Next thing - the indexing key on the oil pump shaft. Was it in there when the pump's shaft nut was torqued down? If it's not, the drive gear will turn but the pump shaft itself may not.

B

 

Yes, prior to installing front cover neither the oil pump nor it's gear could turn independent of the engine, of this I'm sure. Does the oil pump itself have any gasket / gaskets?

 

No, it does not.

Was the oil pump primed (meaning did it have assembly lube in it)?

Maybe you're right about the gasket on the pickup tube.

Oh, one other thing - the front cover over pressure valve - was it still in the cover and spring loaded? Never removed? If it's missing, oil will dump right back out.

B