D@mnit, ithink i superglued my apex seals to the rotor housings....
08-19-02, 12:15 AM
#51
Super Raterhater
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: NY, MA, MI, OR, TX, and now LA or AZ!
Posts: 10,626
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
That's what I was thinking myself, thus looking for other possibilities, but depending on the strength of that superglue, and the ammount used I guess anything is possible. Good luck, I'm done posting here, this looks like a flamewar ready to happen 
08-19-02, 02:03 AM
#52
Full Member
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: las vegas
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if you assembled the rotors by the book there should be no problem. if the side seal springs were mounted upside down there would be a major problem. the EXACT symptom you discribe. i know because we tried this to see if there was any benefit to running springs upside down. we use superglue to hold the small inner spring of the apex seal in place. i have NEVER put a housing on before a rotor. i do believe you have a side seal problem with the springs or WAY to much glue. you don't need glue on the side seals just that middle apex spring. once the rotor is on use rubberbands to hold the apex in place. as the housing is coming down reach in a pull the band out and cut it. either way i would be interested to see what your problem was.
08-19-02, 07:11 AM
#55
HAILERS
Join Date: May 2001
Location: FORT WORTH, TEXAS,USA
Posts: 20,563
Likes: 0
Received 21 Likes
on
19 Posts
How does acetone effect rubber o'rings??? Take one of the old o'rings and soak it for a day and see what happens. I have no idea myself, just sounds like a bad combination. Also sounds like it would wash away all the lubricante you applied to the rotor housings during the rebuild.
It could also be one of the end pieces of the apex seals jammed and cutting into the side housing or rotor housing. You've got a lot of money invested in this engine to be forcing it to rotate. Its something that should be able to rotate with hand pressure. Cheaper to take it apart now.
Vaseline applied in gobs does wonders, but you know that now.
I'd really, really, really, really take it apart now and not force the issue. New o'rings are cheaper than new/used housings.
It could also be one of the end pieces of the apex seals jammed and cutting into the side housing or rotor housing. You've got a lot of money invested in this engine to be forcing it to rotate. Its something that should be able to rotate with hand pressure. Cheaper to take it apart now.
Vaseline applied in gobs does wonders, but you know that now.
I'd really, really, really, really take it apart now and not force the issue. New o'rings are cheaper than new/used housings.
08-19-02, 07:58 AM
#57
Rotary Enthusiast
Join Date: May 2001
Location: AL
Posts: 770
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've been playing with rotary engines and RX-7's for almost 10 years(longer than some of you have been driving) and I've never heard of using super glue to assemble an engine. Its not mentioned in the Mazda factory competition manual I have or in the FSM or in the Haynes manual. I beleive there is something wrong internally. You need to disassemble the engine and double check your work. Even the experts make mistakes and they know when its time to back track.
08-19-02, 08:07 AM
#58
RX-7 Bad Ass
iTrader: (55)
I doubt the problem is the super glue - I built a motor once under duress (girlfriend calling every 3 minutes wondering when I was gonna be done - yeah, ex-girlfriend and had a similar problem. You just gotta take it apart and start over.
Few things -
Yes, you DO use super glue to build a motor, ONLY if you are re-using apex seals. The apex seal corner pieces (the little triangle piece), as they come stock, are glued to the primary part of the apex seal (the part that actually touches the rotor housing). This is for assembly purposes - if the corner pieces aren't glued in place, the apex seal springs will force the corner piece out and to the side, making it VERY hard to place the iron on top of the rotor housing sealing the rotor without the corner piece getting sandwiched between the iron and edge of the rotor housing.
This is part of the reason that I use *new* apex seals on every rebuild - Mazda does a really good job of gluing them.
BTW, guys, I believe the glue trick is actually in the shop manual....
Dale
and had a similar problem. You just gotta take it apart and start over.Few things -
Yes, you DO use super glue to build a motor, ONLY if you are re-using apex seals. The apex seal corner pieces (the little triangle piece), as they come stock, are glued to the primary part of the apex seal (the part that actually touches the rotor housing). This is for assembly purposes - if the corner pieces aren't glued in place, the apex seal springs will force the corner piece out and to the side, making it VERY hard to place the iron on top of the rotor housing sealing the rotor without the corner piece getting sandwiched between the iron and edge of the rotor housing.
This is part of the reason that I use *new* apex seals on every rebuild - Mazda does a really good job of gluing them
. BTW, guys, I believe the glue trick is actually in the shop manual....
Dale
08-19-02, 09:39 AM
#60
HAILERS
Join Date: May 2001
Location: FORT WORTH, TEXAS,USA
Posts: 20,563
Likes: 0
Received 21 Likes
on
19 Posts
I think in the manual they are using lock-tite. This is without looking at the manual. Only memory. Gobs of vaseline for the side seals etc to hold them in place as you turn the rotor over to place it on the front side housing with the apex seals in their slots held with gobs of vaseline. Then the rotor housing, then the apex seal springs.
08-19-02, 10:38 AM
#62
mad scientist
Originally posted by HN
if you assembled the rotors by the book there should be no problem. if the side seal springs were mounted upside down there would be a major problem. the EXACT symptom you discribe. i know because we tried this to see if there was any benefit to running springs upside down. we use superglue to hold the small inner spring of the apex seal in place. i have NEVER put a housing on before a rotor. i do believe you have a side seal problem with the springs or WAY to much glue. you don't need glue on the side seals just that middle apex spring. once the rotor is on use rubberbands to hold the apex in place. as the housing is coming down reach in a pull the band out and cut it. either way i would be interested to see what your problem was.
if you assembled the rotors by the book there should be no problem. if the side seal springs were mounted upside down there would be a major problem. the EXACT symptom you discribe. i know because we tried this to see if there was any benefit to running springs upside down. we use superglue to hold the small inner spring of the apex seal in place. i have NEVER put a housing on before a rotor. i do believe you have a side seal problem with the springs or WAY to much glue. you don't need glue on the side seals just that middle apex spring. once the rotor is on use rubberbands to hold the apex in place. as the housing is coming down reach in a pull the band out and cut it. either way i would be interested to see what your problem was.
Please elaborate on the side seal spring goin upside down. I just dont see how this could affect it.
08-19-02, 10:51 AM
#63
Full Member
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: las vegas
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if you have a spare rotor, side seal and side seal spring lying around put the spring in upside down then put in the side seal. you will notice the increased pressure that is applied to the side seal. there is not enough clearance internally for them to go that way. when i tried the incorrect way, the motor spun freely until the end housing was torqued down. after this the motor would not turn. i suggest you pull the motor apart and recheck this. the side seal spring must be mounted with the ends poking upwards. it is much simpler to pull the motor back apart than trying to force things. as long as vaseline did not reach the water o rings you should be fine to reassemble it. superglue is commonly used just as an aid in assembly of 3 piece seals. you don't really need it but it saves you agravation.
08-19-02, 01:40 PM
#64
Rotary Freak
I really dont know what to say here...
I have gleaned through this post and concluded several things.
Anyone that doesnt know that the corner apex seals are held on the main apex runner with glue when mazda makes them hasnt bought new seals.
Furthermore, they sometimes break off in shipping.
so you have to ..
You guessed it.. SUPERGLUE them back on.
HOWEVER...
The amount you need to glue these peices is nearly imperceivable.
To glue them back on, you MUST clean the seals with brake parts cleaner to strip the oil off, otherwise it will never work.
RX-7Impreza...
You heve revealed a few things that concern me about your procedures.
You didnt know that you could put side seals in upside down?
You clearly used WAAAY to much glue.
Why in the WORLD DID YOU DO THIS?!
the ONLY and i mean ONLY reason that you would ever use glu on the apex seals is to hold the CORNER SEAL ON IF IT FELL OFF THE APEX SEAL!
your apex seals are certainly glued to the rotor housings!!!
MY GOD.
Di you have any documentation available while you did this?
DO NOT try to install this engine in the car.
that resoning is as flawed as the decision to glue the apex seals in the rotors in the forst place.
everyone that builds engines uses rubber bands to hold the seals in place or maybe some viscous substance like vaselene! (I use the bands)
please OPEN the engine, REPLACE the o rings in the side housings (do not re-use the crused o rings) and buy the stuff that dissolves superglue that comes in a tube.
Its specifically designed for removeing superglue.
I am giving you advice that is not the easy way out i know, but its the RIGHT WAY.
You can see what the easy way has done for you so far.
so please take my advice and take apart that engine.
I have 1000 other questions for you but im afraid of the answers.
A few that i must know hoiwever are...
[list=1][*]Did you use "anti seize" compound on the tension bolt threads before you tigntened them?[*]did you use hylomar sealant on the combustion and water jacket o-rings?[*]did you pay attention to which side the distributor gear was facing when you put that back on?[*]did you use sealant on the front cover? if so did you keep it away from the OMP oil passage?[*]did you know that acetone will destroy the rubber plugs in the corner seals?[/list=1]
I know I am meticulous, but the answers to these questions will determine if this engine has a chance in hell of operating.
I eagerly await your response.
I will offer advice as you proceed, but only if you will take it.
I have gleaned through this post and concluded several things.
Anyone that doesnt know that the corner apex seals are held on the main apex runner with glue when mazda makes them hasnt bought new seals.
Furthermore, they sometimes break off in shipping.
so you have to ..
You guessed it.. SUPERGLUE them back on.
HOWEVER...
The amount you need to glue these peices is nearly imperceivable.
To glue them back on, you MUST clean the seals with brake parts cleaner to strip the oil off, otherwise it will never work.
RX-7Impreza...
You heve revealed a few things that concern me about your procedures.
You didnt know that you could put side seals in upside down?
You clearly used WAAAY to much glue.
we used superglue to hold the apex seals in place while we put the rotors in
the ONLY and i mean ONLY reason that you would ever use glu on the apex seals is to hold the CORNER SEAL ON IF IT FELL OFF THE APEX SEAL!
your apex seals are certainly glued to the rotor housings!!!
MY GOD.
Di you have any documentation available while you did this?
DO NOT try to install this engine in the car.
that resoning is as flawed as the decision to glue the apex seals in the rotors in the forst place.
everyone that builds engines uses rubber bands to hold the seals in place or maybe some viscous substance like vaselene! (I use the bands)
please OPEN the engine, REPLACE the o rings in the side housings (do not re-use the crused o rings) and buy the stuff that dissolves superglue that comes in a tube.
Its specifically designed for removeing superglue.
I am giving you advice that is not the easy way out i know, but its the RIGHT WAY.
You can see what the easy way has done for you so far.
so please take my advice and take apart that engine.
I have 1000 other questions for you but im afraid of the answers.
A few that i must know hoiwever are...
[list=1][*]Did you use "anti seize" compound on the tension bolt threads before you tigntened them?[*]did you use hylomar sealant on the combustion and water jacket o-rings?[*]did you pay attention to which side the distributor gear was facing when you put that back on?[*]did you use sealant on the front cover? if so did you keep it away from the OMP oil passage?[*]did you know that acetone will destroy the rubber plugs in the corner seals?[/list=1]
I know I am meticulous, but the answers to these questions will determine if this engine has a chance in hell of operating.
I eagerly await your response.
I will offer advice as you proceed, but only if you will take it.
Last edited by Sniper_X; 08-19-02 at 01:43 PM.
08-19-02, 02:57 PM
#65
BDC Motorsports
TAKE THE ENGINE APART, ok? Take it apart from the rear housing forward until you find the problem. Don't mess with impact guns, don't screw with this or that; just take the thing apart and find the problem. You will find it. Best to do it now while the engine is out in the air.
B
B
08-19-02, 05:30 PM
#67
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HaHaHaHaHaHa
Sorry.. but is this thread intended for all of us to laugh at?
or
Is there 1 litre superglue bottles available from Mazda labelled.. Apex Seal to Rotor Adhesive..?
Vaseline is my preffered choice (but thats my 2c opinion)
I also eagerly await the outcome of this thread.
Sorry.. but is this thread intended for all of us to laugh at?
or
Is there 1 litre superglue bottles available from Mazda labelled.. Apex Seal to Rotor Adhesive..?
Vaseline is my preffered choice (but thats my 2c opinion)
I also eagerly await the outcome of this thread.
08-19-02, 05:31 PM
#68
Rotary Freak
Well, i want to pint out that I was saying that Mazda glues the corner paeices of the apex seals on using superglue.
They do not glue anything else to anything else!
They do not glue anything else to anything else!
08-19-02, 08:10 PM
#69
I am the Anti-Ch(rice)t
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 1,363
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Micro-MoTeC
HaHaHaHaHaHa
Sorry.. but is this thread intended for all of us to laugh at?
or
Is there 1 litre superglue bottles available from Mazda labelled.. Apex Seal to Rotor Adhesive..?
Vaseline is my preffered choice (but thats my 2c opinion)
I also eagerly await the outcome of this thread.
HaHaHaHaHaHa
Sorry.. but is this thread intended for all of us to laugh at?
or
Is there 1 litre superglue bottles available from Mazda labelled.. Apex Seal to Rotor Adhesive..?
Vaseline is my preffered choice (but thats my 2c opinion)
I also eagerly await the outcome of this thread.
your input is as useless as your prescence on earth, keep your mouth shut unless you have valuable input/experience.
Justin
08-19-02, 10:41 PM
#70
10.32 @ 133
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 1,362
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by RX-7Impreza
your input is as useless as your prescence on earth, keep your mouth shut unless you have valuable input/experience.
Justin
your input is as useless as your prescence on earth, keep your mouth shut unless you have valuable input/experience.
Justin
08-20-02, 12:40 AM
#71
My cars louder than yours
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Augusta, GA
Posts: 1,969
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by AJC13B
I think you need to take your own advice. That was one of the most childish posts in this entire thread....
I think you need to take your own advice. That was one of the most childish posts in this entire thread....
08-20-02, 11:57 AM
#72
mad scientist
Back on topic now...
I went back and read the haynes and FSM's again, and realized that I forgot to oil the bearings/housings.(been a while since I rebuilt a motor)
Whoever said I had the side seal springs in backwards needs a refresher course in rebuilding a motor. That DOES NOT matter. It says nothing about it in haynes OR the FSM.
Gasket sealer is ONLY supposed to go on the rotor housings where it flares out at the bottom. It does NOT go on all of the water seals. Actually, it doesnt go on ANY of the water seals. Both Haynes and the FSM say the same thing.
But bottom line, im pulling the engine apart, and doing it again. And Im getting the good sueprglue this time. The kind that actually dries in less than a week
I went back and read the haynes and FSM's again, and realized that I forgot to oil the bearings/housings.(been a while since I rebuilt a motor)
Whoever said I had the side seal springs in backwards needs a refresher course in rebuilding a motor. That DOES NOT matter. It says nothing about it in haynes OR the FSM.
Gasket sealer is ONLY supposed to go on the rotor housings where it flares out at the bottom. It does NOT go on all of the water seals. Actually, it doesnt go on ANY of the water seals. Both Haynes and the FSM say the same thing.
But bottom line, im pulling the engine apart, and doing it again. And Im getting the good sueprglue this time. The kind that actually dries in less than a week
08-20-02, 01:26 PM
#75
My cars louder than yours
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Augusta, GA
Posts: 1,969
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Adam, im pretty sure it does matter. I was looking through the haynes and if i can find it ill post the page number. I think the ends have to be facing up or some ****, im not sure why, but i think thats what it said.