Couldn't I use factory ignition coils to power distributor?
05-31-16, 10:50 AM
#1
LegacyCore
Thread Starter
Couldn't I use factory ignition coils to power distributor?
Hey everybody I'm getting really close to firing up my rebuild, I've ditched EFI and am running the Atkins wrap around intake manifold with Weber 48 DCOE. I was planning on following the DLIDFIS procedure in getting power to the distributor. But was wondering since I already have the factory ignition coils, why wouldn't I be able to use those in place of the DLIDFIS? Is the factory coils controlled by the ECU? I mean, just as long as they are getting power they will supply the spark to the distributor, right?? I don't fully understand it all and am still trying to do the research I'm needing to do. Any info would be great!
05-31-16, 11:35 AM
#3
to further eleborate on watch satch is telling you..
there are 2 systems
1. coils distributor with the igniter and a rotating plate that tells the coils when to fire inside the dsitributor.
2. coils with the igniter. crank angle sensor, ecu that tells the coils when to fire based on the crank sensor..
the ecu can't read a distributor.
the crank angle sensor can't tell a distributor what to do.
notice the coils are made differently as well. one with a built in igniter the other without.
almost nothing is interchangeable unless you mod it first.
dlidfis is for dizzy type.. you do not yet having any of those components..
why ditch the efi, besides the obvious, that you don't know what you are doing....
there are 2 systems
1. coils distributor with the igniter and a rotating plate that tells the coils when to fire inside the dsitributor.
2. coils with the igniter. crank angle sensor, ecu that tells the coils when to fire based on the crank sensor..
the ecu can't read a distributor.
the crank angle sensor can't tell a distributor what to do.
notice the coils are made differently as well. one with a built in igniter the other without.
almost nothing is interchangeable unless you mod it first.
dlidfis is for dizzy type.. you do not yet having any of those components..
why ditch the efi, besides the obvious, that you don't know what you are doing....
Last edited by lastphaseofthis; 05-31-16 at 11:39 AM.
05-31-16, 12:16 PM
#4
LegacyCore
Thread Starter
satch, I had a feeling it had to do with something like that, or else the FB guys would just setup FC coils. That answers that, thanks for clearing it all up! I'll be going the DLIDFIS route after all, I'm just trying to find or think of a way to keep all the wiring and mess to a minimum.
Last edited by 2jzfc; 05-31-16 at 12:21 PM.
05-31-16, 12:20 PM
#5
LegacyCore
Thread Starter
to further eleborate on watch satch is telling you..
there are 2 systems
1. coils distributor with the igniter and a rotating plate that tells the coils when to fire inside the dsitributor.
2. coils with the igniter. crank angle sensor, ecu that tells the coils when to fire based on the crank sensor..
the ecu can't read a distributor.
the crank angle sensor can't tell a distributor what to do.
notice the coils are made differently as well. one with a built in igniter the other without.
almost nothing is interchangeable unless you mod it first.
dlidfis is for dizzy type.. you do not yet having any of those components..
why ditch the efi, besides the obvious, that you don't know what you are doing....
there are 2 systems
1. coils distributor with the igniter and a rotating plate that tells the coils when to fire inside the dsitributor.
2. coils with the igniter. crank angle sensor, ecu that tells the coils when to fire based on the crank sensor..
the ecu can't read a distributor.
the crank angle sensor can't tell a distributor what to do.
notice the coils are made differently as well. one with a built in igniter the other without.
almost nothing is interchangeable unless you mod it first.
dlidfis is for dizzy type.. you do not yet having any of those components..
why ditch the efi, besides the obvious, that you don't know what you are doing....
05-31-16, 12:23 PM
#6
Licensed Zip Tie Mechanic
I run 2 mallory ignition boxes (L & T) and 2 blaster2 coils (L & T) with a distributor on mine - with modded ignitors. It seemed to clean up the signal a bit to the coils and I was able to use them as rev limiters.
I couldn't get the direct fire to work right on mine. Followed it to the tee, and still wouldn't do the job.
(I'm running a RB Weber 51IDA for the record).
I couldn't get the direct fire to work right on mine. Followed it to the tee, and still wouldn't do the job.
(I'm running a RB Weber 51IDA for the record).
05-31-16, 01:06 PM
#7
At this stage of its lifespan, I can think of several good reasons besides laziness/stupidity to carb a FC.
-The ECU is ancient and crude
-The associated intake manifold(s) is heavy and complex
-Apparent simplicity aside, you can in fact tune a carb, which the stock ECU does not allow
This very morning I was stripping my engine, prepping for removal, and it's amazing the amount of crap required to support the EFI. Hell, on my S5 I can't even delete the OMP without a $150 mod to the ECU and that's an absurd waste of money...like throwing cash at a Windows 98 computer.
No way would I assert that carbs are better than EFI but for some cars, it's certainly a completely viable option.
Like a NA, for instance.
I can't think of a good reason to mortgage the barn chasing rotary NA power, we "all motor" geezers simply accept the limitations of the beast and glean pleasure from other aspects of the car.
One of the more esoteric aspects to enjoy is "keeping the car running" and a carb can certainly facilitate that.
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05-31-16, 01:52 PM
#8
LegacyCore
Thread Starter
Sorry if I seemed a bit of an ******* in my response to basically being called out for "not knowing what I'm doing". But people who assume **** me off sometimes... And not that I need to explain myself, but the reason I'm going carb is because I think it will be fun. It will be different, I can tune without an ECU, I'll gain a decent amount of power over the stock setup, and I think it looks and sounds really good!
In any other case or situation I'd be the first one to jump on the EFI bandwagon, it is FAR superior to carb. I'd drop the thousands of dollars it would take to upgrade all the components including a stand alone system be it MS PnP, Apexi, Halltech ect. But for this particular project I wanted to do something different, something that most people would scratch their head at. It's my car, not yours, I'm not trying to "fix" anything with the EFI system just doing something different. That is all, and if this forum can help me in any way to achieve that goal, then great I'm very grateful.
But don't get on here all high and mighty, thinking that because you have a high post count, that you can automatically assume I don't know what I'm doing. Or think just because you are reprimanding me that you'll gain some favor with the "OG" of this forum because you think you'll gain some kind of approval for doing so...
In any other case or situation I'd be the first one to jump on the EFI bandwagon, it is FAR superior to carb. I'd drop the thousands of dollars it would take to upgrade all the components including a stand alone system be it MS PnP, Apexi, Halltech ect. But for this particular project I wanted to do something different, something that most people would scratch their head at. It's my car, not yours, I'm not trying to "fix" anything with the EFI system just doing something different. That is all, and if this forum can help me in any way to achieve that goal, then great I'm very grateful.
But don't get on here all high and mighty, thinking that because you have a high post count, that you can automatically assume I don't know what I'm doing. Or think just because you are reprimanding me that you'll gain some favor with the "OG" of this forum because you think you'll gain some kind of approval for doing so...
05-31-16, 01:53 PM
#9
LegacyCore
Thread Starter
I run 2 mallory ignition boxes (L & T) and 2 blaster2 coils (L & T) with a distributor on mine - with modded ignitors. It seemed to clean up the signal a bit to the coils and I was able to use them as rev limiters.
I couldn't get the direct fire to work right on mine. Followed it to the tee, and still wouldn't do the job.
(I'm running a RB Weber 51IDA for the record).
I couldn't get the direct fire to work right on mine. Followed it to the tee, and still wouldn't do the job.
(I'm running a RB Weber 51IDA for the record).
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charliebars (01-26-24)
05-31-16, 03:24 PM
#11
you can use the J109 ignitors on the old school distributor to fire FC coils, it is considered an upgrade for the old school cars and i have done it before.
a better alternative is to use GM ignitors, because the J109 ignitors aren't easily found, if and when they fail, which is only a matter of time.
the distributor is simply a mechanical timing trigger mechanism, versus the FC's system which uses the ECU to signal the coils when to fire. That said, you are very limited on timing curves with the mechanical distributor. you could leave the ECU and CAS and run the more current ignition system still, on the old schools it is more work than it is worth but your car is already set up to do it.
a better alternative is to use GM ignitors, because the J109 ignitors aren't easily found, if and when they fail, which is only a matter of time.
the distributor is simply a mechanical timing trigger mechanism, versus the FC's system which uses the ECU to signal the coils when to fire. That said, you are very limited on timing curves with the mechanical distributor. you could leave the ECU and CAS and run the more current ignition system still, on the old schools it is more work than it is worth but your car is already set up to do it.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 05-31-16 at 03:27 PM.
06-01-16, 03:27 AM
#12
But what if he does know what he's doing?
At this stage of its lifespan, I can think of several good reasons besides laziness/stupidity to carb a FC.
-The ECU is ancient and crude
-The associated intake manifold(s) is heavy and complex
-Apparent simplicity aside, you can in fact tune a carb, which the stock ECU does not allow
At this stage of its lifespan, I can think of several good reasons besides laziness/stupidity to carb a FC.
-The ECU is ancient and crude
-The associated intake manifold(s) is heavy and complex
-Apparent simplicity aside, you can in fact tune a carb, which the stock ECU does not allow
stock ecu with rtek, does not need stock manifold... just stock 4 injectors..
the s5 omp ecu is garbage i only stick with s4 stuff for that reason..
carbs have their place, like in my sig.
i'm just saying take a step back from the wallet and do some research on stuff....
i really do like the look of it currently..
for the DLIDFIS stock HEI GM coils current limit at about 4 amp.. ( the stock j109 i like 1.5amps) i have found the accel the msd and the penatronix flame thrower are al made to pull 7-8 amps.
for my setup i found some ebay ones for 20 bucks each, im going to scope them and see if they pull around the 7-8 range.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/331367385209?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
this is the coil i found, its a clone of an AEM dumb coil.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/171653990552?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
you could get parts from the junk yard, but i've spent 150 on 3 coils and 3 ignitors, that are over powered then factory.. and brand new.. . Chinese junk.
Last edited by lastphaseofthis; 06-01-16 at 03:30 AM.
06-01-16, 03:31 AM
#13
you can use the J109 ignitors on the old school distributor to fire FC coils, it is considered an upgrade for the old school cars and i have done it before.
a better alternative is to use GM ignitors, because the J109 ignitors aren't easily found, if and when they fail, which is only a matter of time.
the distributor is simply a mechanical timing trigger mechanism, versus the FC's system which uses the ECU to signal the coils when to fire. That said, you are very limited on timing curves with the mechanical distributor. you could leave the ECU and CAS and run the more current ignition system still, on the old schools it is more work than it is worth but your car is already set up to do it.
a better alternative is to use GM ignitors, because the J109 ignitors aren't easily found, if and when they fail, which is only a matter of time.
the distributor is simply a mechanical timing trigger mechanism, versus the FC's system which uses the ECU to signal the coils when to fire. That said, you are very limited on timing curves with the mechanical distributor. you could leave the ECU and CAS and run the more current ignition system still, on the old schools it is more work than it is worth but your car is already set up to do it.
06-01-16, 06:59 AM
#14
Licensed Zip Tie Mechanic
Sorry if I seemed a bit of an ******* in my response to basically being called out for "not knowing what I'm doing". But people who assume **** me off sometimes... And not that I need to explain myself, but the reason I'm going carb is because I think it will be fun. It will be different, I can tune without an ECU, I'll gain a decent amount of power over the stock setup, and I think it looks and sounds really good!
06-01-16, 09:36 AM
#16
the timing curves wouldn't be completely accurate without an AFM, i'm not sure exactly where it would map out based solely off RPM, but i have a feeling it would still be better than what you get with the tired old spring weights in the mechanical distributor.
06-01-16, 11:55 AM
#20
MECP Certified Installer
06-01-16, 01:24 PM
#23
MECP Certified Installer
The stock ECU signal to fire of the coil is either ground or open circuit.
The cas Is going to send the same signal to the MSD box, which it has a wire for a very low signal hall effect sensor. If it can fire off a crank trigger wheel, I don't see how it can't fire off the CAS. A standard crank trigger wheel is WORSE signal than the CAS.
06-01-16, 03:55 PM
#24
it won't work.. if you are using a crank angle sensor with your MSD then i'd bet swapping to a dizzy fed signal would make sure car run alot better.. not that it runs poorly now.. im just saying.. thats not supposed to work like that...
all using the CAS does instead of the dizzy is it locks your timing, no more advance and retard... you get more then that with the dizzy at least.
point being taking the ECU out of the equation result its such poor timing... you need to go back old school dizzy
all using the CAS does instead of the dizzy is it locks your timing, no more advance and retard... you get more then that with the dizzy at least.
point being taking the ECU out of the equation result its such poor timing... you need to go back old school dizzy