Core charge blues..any suggestions?
12-14-07, 11:02 PM
#1
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Core charge blues..any suggestions?
I recently paid a $700 core charge, I have an 88 NA that was stock. He tells me that upon inspection the 'coolant lip' on the front rotor housing is cracked and there is a deep groove in the housing. Ahem...also the 'metal seals' are worn, apex seals? Or some other metal seal I am unaware of...but shouldn't an engine with 160k have new seals all around installed on rebuild anyway is how I thought....should that affect the core?
So anyway, he offered me $375 of my $700 core back...what do you guys think?
So anyway, he offered me $375 of my $700 core back...what do you guys think?
12-14-07, 11:06 PM
#2
well....
i live in ga. there are plenty of people that would have helped you out.
anyways, 160k miles probably means the engine is old and tired. if the coolant lip is cracked on an iron, i got a spare they i could give ya.
basically a rebuild is using new rotor housings, apex seals, and random rubber, paper, and other seals/gaskets. usually this can be done for around 1600.
i live in ga. there are plenty of people that would have helped you out.
anyways, 160k miles probably means the engine is old and tired. if the coolant lip is cracked on an iron, i got a spare they i could give ya.
basically a rebuild is using new rotor housings, apex seals, and random rubber, paper, and other seals/gaskets. usually this can be done for around 1600.
12-14-07, 11:08 PM
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well, its rx7world.com, they've done some restructuring of their site, but a core is 400 now, I'm hoping that may be a mixup
BTW, SirCygnus, yeah, I was a newb, I needed my car, I shopped around...
and ultimately I chose them because it was convenient at the time
And yellow freight REALLY F&^%ED me up when they dropped my motor and then delivered it..so it ended up costing ernst almost a grand to make my order right. It was typical rx7 BS
I read a few places that the core was based on the 12 parts internal to the engine:
1 ecc shaft
2 rotors
3 cast irons
2 rotor housings
1 oil pump
2 stationary gears
and what else am I missing guys? I'm racking my brain- it'll come to me..
but that any part is damaged is 1/12th of you core taken off. that seems fair..
BTW, SirCygnus, yeah, I was a newb, I needed my car, I shopped around...
and ultimately I chose them because it was convenient at the time
And yellow freight REALLY F&^%ED me up when they dropped my motor and then delivered it..so it ended up costing ernst almost a grand to make my order right. It was typical rx7 BS
I read a few places that the core was based on the 12 parts internal to the engine:
1 ecc shaft
2 rotors
3 cast irons
2 rotor housings
1 oil pump
2 stationary gears
and what else am I missing guys? I'm racking my brain- it'll come to me..
but that any part is damaged is 1/12th of you core taken off. that seems fair..
Last edited by Aaron Cake; 12-15-07 at 10:35 AM. Reason: Merge three posts...use edit button please
12-15-07, 01:24 PM
#5
This is why I don't operate on an exchange basis. The customer sends me their core and I tear it apart and evaluate it. This makes each person responsible for the condition of their own core, and their final price will be reflective of it. It helps keep overall costs low, since I do not have to average in junk cores with good cores to determine my general price. It also keeps ME from getting screwed on junk core returns, or those who refuse to return cores altogether.
If I were ever to go to a core exchange system, I would operate exactly this way however...divide the shortblock into 10 major parts, some weighted more heavily in value than others, grade the core and return X% of the core charge based on the reuseable parts.
I would not include front cover, oil pump, or misc. hardware (dowels, counterweights, etc.) in this because they rarely if ever fail or get damaged and I have plenty of extras anyway.
Just think if you'd went with me instead, you'd have had less BS from the carrier and the core issue. My procedures may seem unusual to begin with and more trouble than other builders, but they have been formulated over years and hundreds of builds to produce the best results with the least potential for either the builder or the customer to have problems.
As for the specifics, it sounds as if he is talking about the front IRON having a cracked water jacket wall, which is not too uncommon. Makes the iron automatic junk.
Sounds as if your metal oil control rings/scrapers were damaged or excessively worn as well. Many builders including myself normally reuse these, and so if yours are not reuseable then he may seek reimbursement for those. Of course, if I get a customer core that has damaged seals that I would normally wish to reuse, I would simply dip into my stockpile of good used seals from other cores I've torn down, and either give them to the customer or charge them a small fee for them.
If you paid for his basic 1200 dollar build then you got about half new seals and half used seals, similar to what I do but his cost is slightly higher. There is nothing wrong with this, however, and the whole "all new seals" requirement for a good build is a misconception.
Still, I can't see any of the seals or springs being factored into the core exchange value...
If I were ever to go to a core exchange system, I would operate exactly this way however...divide the shortblock into 10 major parts, some weighted more heavily in value than others, grade the core and return X% of the core charge based on the reuseable parts.
I would not include front cover, oil pump, or misc. hardware (dowels, counterweights, etc.) in this because they rarely if ever fail or get damaged and I have plenty of extras anyway.
Just think if you'd went with me instead, you'd have had less BS from the carrier and the core issue. My procedures may seem unusual to begin with and more trouble than other builders, but they have been formulated over years and hundreds of builds to produce the best results with the least potential for either the builder or the customer to have problems.
As for the specifics, it sounds as if he is talking about the front IRON having a cracked water jacket wall, which is not too uncommon. Makes the iron automatic junk.
Sounds as if your metal oil control rings/scrapers were damaged or excessively worn as well. Many builders including myself normally reuse these, and so if yours are not reuseable then he may seek reimbursement for those. Of course, if I get a customer core that has damaged seals that I would normally wish to reuse, I would simply dip into my stockpile of good used seals from other cores I've torn down, and either give them to the customer or charge them a small fee for them.
If you paid for his basic 1200 dollar build then you got about half new seals and half used seals, similar to what I do but his cost is slightly higher. There is nothing wrong with this, however, and the whole "all new seals" requirement for a good build is a misconception.
Still, I can't see any of the seals or springs being factored into the core exchange value...
Last edited by RotaryResurrection; 12-15-07 at 01:30 PM.
12-15-07, 08:29 PM
#6
This is why I don't operate on an exchange basis. The customer sends me their core and I tear it apart and evaluate it. This makes each person responsible for the condition of their own core, and their final price will be reflective of it. It helps keep overall costs low, since I do not have to average in junk cores with good cores to determine my general price. It also keeps ME from getting screwed on junk core returns, or those who refuse to return cores altogether.
If I were ever to go to a core exchange system, I would operate exactly this way however...divide the shortblock into 10 major parts, some weighted more heavily in value than others, grade the core and return X% of the core charge based on the reuseable parts.
I would not include front cover, oil pump, or misc. hardware (dowels, counterweights, etc.) in this because they rarely if ever fail or get damaged and I have plenty of extras anyway.
Just think if you'd went with me instead, you'd have had less BS from the carrier and the core issue. My procedures may seem unusual to begin with and more trouble than other builders, but they have been formulated over years and hundreds of builds to produce the best results with the least potential for either the builder or the customer to have problems.
As for the specifics, it sounds as if he is talking about the front IRON having a cracked water jacket wall, which is not too uncommon. Makes the iron automatic junk.
Sounds as if your metal oil control rings/scrapers were damaged or excessively worn as well. Many builders including myself normally reuse these, and so if yours are not reuseable then he may seek reimbursement for those. Of course, if I get a customer core that has damaged seals that I would normally wish to reuse, I would simply dip into my stockpile of good used seals from other cores I've torn down, and either give them to the customer or charge them a small fee for them.
If you paid for his basic 1200 dollar build then you got about half new seals and half used seals, similar to what I do but his cost is slightly higher. There is nothing wrong with this, however, and the whole "all new seals" requirement for a good build is a misconception.
Still, I can't see any of the seals or springs being factored into the core exchange value...
If I were ever to go to a core exchange system, I would operate exactly this way however...divide the shortblock into 10 major parts, some weighted more heavily in value than others, grade the core and return X% of the core charge based on the reuseable parts.
I would not include front cover, oil pump, or misc. hardware (dowels, counterweights, etc.) in this because they rarely if ever fail or get damaged and I have plenty of extras anyway.
Just think if you'd went with me instead, you'd have had less BS from the carrier and the core issue. My procedures may seem unusual to begin with and more trouble than other builders, but they have been formulated over years and hundreds of builds to produce the best results with the least potential for either the builder or the customer to have problems.
As for the specifics, it sounds as if he is talking about the front IRON having a cracked water jacket wall, which is not too uncommon. Makes the iron automatic junk.
Sounds as if your metal oil control rings/scrapers were damaged or excessively worn as well. Many builders including myself normally reuse these, and so if yours are not reuseable then he may seek reimbursement for those. Of course, if I get a customer core that has damaged seals that I would normally wish to reuse, I would simply dip into my stockpile of good used seals from other cores I've torn down, and either give them to the customer or charge them a small fee for them.
If you paid for his basic 1200 dollar build then you got about half new seals and half used seals, similar to what I do but his cost is slightly higher. There is nothing wrong with this, however, and the whole "all new seals" requirement for a good build is a misconception.
Still, I can't see any of the seals or springs being factored into the core exchange value...
12-15-07, 09:15 PM
#7
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Perhaps you are correct, mr landers, but I still would have had a time getting you my motor and waiting on it to return (which I ended up waiting nearly as long anyhow yet that was the freight company's fault and not the builder of my new motor, unforeseeable at the time, hindsight is 20/20) I also sympathize with Ernst, yellow wouldn't refund but 1/3 of his cost to rebuild my motor a second time because the shop didn't see it had been internally damaged until after it had been signed for and that it was considered "concealed damage" which "the shop should be responsible for"...The rear iron was BROKEN, and the oil tube was bent 90 degrees and snapped off, it was OBVIOUS that someone had to know they dropped the damn thing from about 3 feet in the air 180 degrees UPSIDE DOWN- so anyone who wants to use yellow freight beware, they screw you around any chance they get, that's just the tip of the iceberg that I ran into with yellow, ranging from not bringing the right trucks to pick up my BROKEN motor, and then not getting the FIXED motor to me in time, and then repeating the same BS when picking up my core, and then not reimbursing ernst what they cost him. It was a load of BS. So, in the future, let me ask you kevin- if I need a rebuild can I bring you my whole car? Or should I take my motor out first and send you JUST that? Because it would be much easier to just get it all done at the same place, and I don't have time to pull a motor myself and ship it and BLAH BLAH BLAH. I'd like to drop my car off somewhere, pay a sum of money and pick it up a whole again. I know a place in texas will only give rebuilds IF and ONLY IF you drop your whole car off there...
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12-15-07, 09:19 PM
#8
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If you paid for his basic 1200 dollar build then you got about half new seals and half used seals, similar to what I do but his cost is slightly higher. There is nothing wrong with this, however, and the whole "all new seals" requirement for a good build is a misconception.
12-15-07, 11:26 PM
#9
I dont know about Ernst, but considering that he emulated my business plan, I would say that he uses similar parts as me for the basic build. New apex seals and springs, 93+ corner seal springs, viton oil oring inserts, and all coolant seals and related orings, front and rear main seals and the aftermarket thermal pellet for eshaft, as well as photo documentation of teardown and build.
Anyway, as indicated on my site under engines ---> engine pricing ---> installation, I do offer turnkey jobs. In fact this nets you a longer warranty to boot, and you get to begin breakin during the drive home. I also install any replacement/maintenance parts on the engine/enginebay for free that you provide.
For the average blown s4 NA engine base rebuild, turnkey install, you'd be looking at around 22-2500 bucks plus any parts you send to install. Of course it's a moot point now.
I actually give 3 options, something that very few shops provide:
1) pull your engine, strip all parts off it to the bare shortblock, and send in.
2) pull your engine complete, remove AC and PS and clutch, and send as a longblock. Extra labor for teardown/reassembly, as well as mandatory gasket kit purchase (all models except s4 NA) applies.
3) bring whole car and let me do everything. Extra labor for remove/teardown/reassemble/reinstall, as well as mandatory gasket kit purchase (all models except s4 NA) applies.
Obviously I offer porting as well, and I have recently begun offering powdercoating of engine accessories as an option for those who want to build a nice setup. And as with everything else, the powdercoat work is very good quality while being very cheap.
Most of the freight companies out there suck. I love R&L, they are so easy to work with, very reliable and fast, and still fairly cheap. I have not had any damage or loss in freight since I started using them in 2001. Their site is www.gorlc.com for future reference, they do not require that you have any sort of account with them to use their service. It is almost as easy as UPS. Just call them, have their driver come out and pick up the pallet (or go to their terminal), fill out a short bill of lading, and that's it. You can do rate quotes easily online and pay in cash, check, or charge. They do freight collect and even COD.
Anyway, as indicated on my site under engines ---> engine pricing ---> installation, I do offer turnkey jobs. In fact this nets you a longer warranty to boot, and you get to begin breakin during the drive home. I also install any replacement/maintenance parts on the engine/enginebay for free that you provide.
For the average blown s4 NA engine base rebuild, turnkey install, you'd be looking at around 22-2500 bucks plus any parts you send to install. Of course it's a moot point now.
I actually give 3 options, something that very few shops provide:
1) pull your engine, strip all parts off it to the bare shortblock, and send in.
2) pull your engine complete, remove AC and PS and clutch, and send as a longblock. Extra labor for teardown/reassembly, as well as mandatory gasket kit purchase (all models except s4 NA) applies.
3) bring whole car and let me do everything. Extra labor for remove/teardown/reassemble/reinstall, as well as mandatory gasket kit purchase (all models except s4 NA) applies.
Obviously I offer porting as well, and I have recently begun offering powdercoating of engine accessories as an option for those who want to build a nice setup. And as with everything else, the powdercoat work is very good quality while being very cheap.
Most of the freight companies out there suck. I love R&L, they are so easy to work with, very reliable and fast, and still fairly cheap. I have not had any damage or loss in freight since I started using them in 2001. Their site is www.gorlc.com for future reference, they do not require that you have any sort of account with them to use their service. It is almost as easy as UPS. Just call them, have their driver come out and pick up the pallet (or go to their terminal), fill out a short bill of lading, and that's it. You can do rate quotes easily online and pay in cash, check, or charge. They do freight collect and even COD.
12-16-07, 11:17 AM
#10
I had Kevin rebuild my engine and it was a great experience. I dropped my engine off at his shop/house and he tore it down while I was there. I got to see exactly what was able to be reused, what couldn't be reused, some of his other work and his sweet blue FC.
From there he laid out the build options and everything was set. He even took the time to answer all my questions. You don't get that from normal repair shops, they just tell you "it will be $#### and you can pick it up ##."
In any case, he's very straightforward, fair, and will work with you. And by far the best part is the rebuild, no issues, no drama.
He even still takes time to answer my PMs months after the rebuild
It just doesn't get any better than that.
Vince
From there he laid out the build options and everything was set. He even took the time to answer all my questions. You don't get that from normal repair shops, they just tell you "it will be $#### and you can pick it up ##."
In any case, he's very straightforward, fair, and will work with you. And by far the best part is the rebuild, no issues, no drama.
He even still takes time to answer my PMs months after the rebuild
It just doesn't get any better than that.
Vince
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