clokker

iTrader: (2)

It's a decent beginning, but hardly a finished product.
While there's still lots of work to be done on the bezel (ideas are percolating on the back burner), I've returned to the wiper, determined to get it fully functional.
I spent the whole weekend on what I'd hoped would be a solution, only to fail yet again.

I now have a whole new approach to implement...I'm a determined boy.

My next "blue sky" project is slated to be replacement of the Logicon.

TonyD89

iTrader: (10)

A nice, simple, glove box button would be sweet also.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

The "new approach" began with a retreat.
Frustrated by my inability to master the Mazda6>FC integration, I looked again with a fresh eye at the original Nissan option, which I'd abandoned for the more stylish Mazda switchgear.
I found a complete schematic for the Nissan wiper system and realized that it would be a direct plug-n-play splice into the FC, it's the same system electrically.

This presents a ballbuster of a choice...I could start all over and use the Nissan switchgear, live with the crippled functionality I've gleaned from the Mazda switch or possibly integrate the Nissan>Mazda>FC into a real Frankenstein system.

I'm loathe start over.
So much energy has been expended getting the switch in place and properly covered and I've grown quite fond of the ergonomics (switch placement and feel), a total abandonment would feel like a failure now.

What I'm going to try now is mechanically modifying the Maz6 switch to conform to the design of the Nissan switch (simple from a design perspective, not sure how easy in the metal) and then use the Nissan "amplifier" (the intermittent controller that is a standalone part in Nissanworld), which is setup for applying grounds that I need.
Should this fail I can simply revert to the full Nissan system and be done.

Find a dash that has the button of your dreams and then swap the entire thing in...seriously, it's probably the easiest way.

Tofuman FC3S

iTrader: (1)

LoL! Admire your dedication. Still not convinced it's "worth" it... Ghehe...

Riz.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

For me, the "worth" was in the process more than the final result, although I'm pleased with where I am so far.
The project was frivolous from the beginning-remember, all my FC switches worked perfectly, there was no pressing need to mess with any of it.

Also recall that ultimately I'd like to swap the entire dash and this project (along with the already "completed" gauge cluster swap) was an initial foray into that battle.
Logicon replacement is the next step, after which I'll have dealt with all the major electrical mods that should be necessary, leaving just the physical act of fitting a different dash (and duct structure).
It doesn't matter if I use the current combo switch or gauges, I now know I can deal with the system(s) and make it work.

The devil IS in the details but sometimes you don't even know what the details are till you've tried a few times...that's what this has been about.
Many major dash projects seem to flounder after the dash itself is in place, that seems to be the easiest part.
It's all the details that kill this type of project, so I'm assessing them first...once I find a suitable donor, I'm confident I can make it functional.

TheGloriousTachikoma

You sir...are my hero. I Lucked-out and was able to grab the switches from a '86 I found in a junkyard, but here in Michigan RX's are...rare. I was thinking about a similar project, but going the route of the Radical SR3 with lights and signals as pushbuttons on the steering wheel.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

I can see two major obstacles for you to surmount:
-Transferring that many signals across the column>steering wheel interface
-Finding the appropriate switchgear

I'll assume that both are solvable- Radical has apparently already done it, after all- but I'd rethink the premise before going too much further.

Here's something to consider...
While working as a race bike mechanic I assembled many bikes from scratch.
The overwhelming temptation while doing this is to set everything up symmetrically- clipons, brake/clutch levers, footpegs, etc. but that rarely fits the rider.
We'd loosen up all the controls and sit the rider in place while blindfolded and he'd rotate everything till it fell to hand without strain/thought.
Then, final tightening.
From a purely geometric perspective the setup was all wonky but that is irrelevant when dealing with ergonomics.

I think it's very likely that your desire for all the wheel mounted controls is primarily visually based...it looks cool.
I think it'd be a nightmare to actually live with however.

I found that even after five years of daily driving, the stock FC switches were still not natural to me...thought was always required.
Not a lot mind you, I'm not an idiot, but they were never as natural as the stalk mounts were immediately.
What you're considering is completely unlike anything your conditioning is prepared for and even after you acclimate (assuming you ever do), no one else would ever be able to casually borrow your car and drive it safely.

Try marking your current wheel with some dots or something where you imagine the switches might go, then try "using" them as you drive...no peeking.
Next time you're in a junkyard, sit in 30-40 cars, close your eyes and try to operate the controls.
Some cars you can find everything first try...those are the ones you want to emulate, boring as they may be.

You'll be walking on gilded splinters with a Radical-type setup.
What matters to an interface like this is that it feel natural and operate intuitively.

TheGloriousTachikoma

-You do have a point there. At this point it is purely visual. I'm not entirely sure I'd have much trouble with it, but it is pure speculation at this point.
-It's strange though. Lucy's controls do feel natural to me. I have to expend more though into the controls for my dad's escape or my mom's F-150 despite having much, much more time in either than my RX7.

-I can understand the signal transfer problem though. It would be five wires at minimum, and even as quick as the RX7's rack is, it would still be a coupleafew turns around the steering shaft for the harness to turn. Hmm...
-I just cracked-open the issue of Top Gear I saw the SR3's wheel in and Radical uses a length of coiled cord (telephone cord for those who like an analogy) from the bottom of the wheel to the underside of the column. I suppose it also helps that the Radical probably has less than two turns lock-to-lock.

http://images.pistonheads.com/nimg/2...%20wheel-L.jpg
http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-conte...14-625x416.jpg

Of course, I'd still have a central horn button. That is a universal control.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

A regular ole clockspring from an airbag equipped car gives you the contacts you'd need (I'm looking at one now that has eleven wires), so you can eliminate the clunky "telephone cord" of the Radical.
That's one problem dealt with...

Tofuman FC3S

iTrader: (1)

I've been looking for that type of cord with enough wires for blinker, horn, hi-beam buttons etc... Radical probably uses CAN systems.

Riz.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

I have a Luddite's fear of CAN systems and since I'm trying to simplify my car, don't really feel like exploring them.

I had to know if the Nissan switch would work, so I wired it up and plugged it in.
It does...everything.
Damnit.
This forced me to make an adaptor to mount it to the column and by tomorrow I'll be able to see how this switch sits/feels.
Damnit.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Haven't mounted the switch yet but here's the schematic for the Nissan wiper switch:


Nissan uses this setup (with or without the intermittent amplifier) on a multitude of models, so wire colors may not correspond but the pinout on the connectors is spot on.
The wiper switch interfaces to the stock harness with only six wires (LOW, HIGH, PARK, WASH, power and ground).
I depinned those six from the stock connector and put them into a six pin housing (sourced from the yard, natch) and just plug right in.

Now I need to hook up the lights/turnsignals.

FC_fan

iTrader: (2)

^ is that the switch that the intermitent function works on? almost ready to do this swap myself once I get an engine in my subaru. with my wiring experience, I'm expecting a lot of down time for this lol. I think I've said it earlier but this is awesome.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Yup, that's the one...everything works as in the original.
It has a much more extensive delay range than the stocker as well.

Here are the completed harness for the Nissan combo switch:


On the left is the light/TS wiring.
The large blue connector is stock FC and plugs into the main chassis harness. The two white connectors plug into the switch. In the middle are the TNS and retractor relays (internal in the FC switch) and an unswitched power tap for the Miata gauge cluster (not required for the FC gauges).

The right is the wipers.
The box in the middle is the intermittent "amplifier". Without this amp the intermittent does not work, nor do the wipers sweep when WASH is activated. Low and high speeds will be normal though and the washer pump will work.

FC_fan

iTrader: (2)

is that intermittent amp box form the same car that you got your stalks from? I'm thinking yes but want to make sure. I'll reread the whole thread to find makes and models of all this. I like the design of the miata switches you had in there but I'm sure when its all together it won't matter that much. I want everything to work more then anything.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

No, in fact it isn't.
I wasn't aware when I harvested the switch that there was a separate module required, I went back the next day to retrieve it but the crusher already ate the donor vehicle, so I pulled this amp from an Xterra.
The wire colors were wrong but the terminals were correct.

Don't move too quickly on the Nissan switch just yet, I've run into a problem with the headlights.
Both the FC and the Mazda6 switches keep LOW beam grounded even as HIGH is activated, the Nissan does not.
Running lights and low beam work fine, kick on high beam and the lights die and the headlamps retract.
This is because the headlight relay and the retractor relay are both controlled by the low beam circuit, switching to high beam kills the ground to the main headlight relay which in turn means the dimmer relay cannot activate at all and the retractor thinks you've turned off the headlights and closes.

This was an unexpected problem, I thought I was home free.

FC_fan

iTrader: (2)

well, do the hi beams have a ground of there own then? if so, couldn't you just wire that to the low beam ground and be set? (pretends to know of what he speaks but can not fathom electrical-ness type things other then radio splicing. lol)

EDIT: ^ thought wrong, can you tie the low beam ground to where it is at now and ALSO to the high beam ground with a jump wire/solder? (idk if its in a relay/thing I don't understand or what). you'll find a way, I'm sure.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, I already tried that, it doesn't work.

The frustrating part of all this is that were I to completely wire the car none of this would be a problem...it's working within the confines of the FC harness that's killing me.

Here's the problem:
We have a weird/fucked up stock system.
The headlight relay coils are energized (grounded) by the headlight switch and the relay sends power to the "dimmer" relay.
This is a five pin relay and the default is LOW beam.
When you toggle the switch (part of the turnsignal switch) for HIGH beam, the coils on the dimmer relay are grounded and it switches power to the other circuit (high beam).
The retractor motor is tied to LOW beam, as long as the main headlight circuit is energized, the motors stay UP.

What happens with this Nissan switch is that activating HIGH beam removes the ground for the main relay (which also closes the retractor motors) and that split second between switch positions isn't fast enough to save me...by the time I've applied ground to the dimmer relay the main relay is OFF and there's no power flowing.

It occurs to me that perhaps reconfiguring the two stock relays might help but right now my head is aswamp with wiring diagrams and I'm not thinking straight.
It seems like the same Volvo double relay setup I used on my efan install might actually be useful in this context but I'm too frazzled to explore the possibility.

So, I'm thinking I have three options for the moment:
- Keep the Nissan switch and have fully functional wipers but no HIGH beam.
-Revert back to the Maz6 switch and have basic wiper function but all the lighting.
-Start the search all over again and use an entirely different switch.

Naturally, I'm leaning towards option #2.
The Maz6 switch is much nicer looking, is practically finish installed (column trim all done) and the lack of INT wipers is mildly irritating but not a hazard.
It's still possible that the Nissan amplifier might be successfully grafted into the Mazda system, I haven't really explored that yet and don't hold out much hope actually.
On the other hand, were I willing to expand into the engine bay, I think I could make the Nissan light switch work but that's really indulging in mission creep and this whole project has been more of a PITA than anticipated.

I have family obligations to attend to, so progress will stop for a few days and I'll give this all some thought.

FC_fan

iTrader: (2)

or you can just use the nissan wiper stalk, and the mazda 6 light stalk. lol. I know you are going for aesthetics though. at this point, the mazda 6 setup seems best. wipers work and lights work, which are more important then an intermitent function. I think maybe you should start looking at some ford parts possibly. lots of different parts for fords work for our cars in various areas so might be worth looking into.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, I'm aware and have taken advantage of the (somewhat tenuous) Ford connection.
Hell, I'm even running Mustang wheels.

I spent what time I could steal over the Mother's Day weekend trying every idea I could come up with for the wipers, but no go.
**** 'em for now, they work well enough.

After that crushing disappointment, I decided to give the bezel one more go.
I've had a secret part hidden away, waiting until I felt competent enough to work it...and now's the time, I suppose.
This time I'm starting with the bezel from a 2002 Infiniti G20.
I found this the first day I looked for bezels but the work required was too daunting and I explored what appeared to be easier options.

Now it's back.
In the junkyard, what caught my eye was the fantastic similarity to the inside of the FC bezel.
That is, it's shaped very much like the FC cluster face.
When I got it home it turned out to be about an inch too wide and the obvious best move was to section that inch right down the center, which I didn't feel comfortable doing.
Now I do.

Here's the part, fresh off the donor:




After amputating the unwanted vent/switch section on the left:


The first sectioning cut made:


The G20 bezel has two screw bungs in the roof and the sectioning has brought them within millimeters of the stock fasteners in the dash. A little more work and it should line up perfectly.

Once it's glued back together quite a bit of the inner bezel will need to be trimmed back but there is a lot of material to work with and it shouldn't be a problem.
I'm hopeful that the glue-up of the two halves will go well enough that there will be very minimal post fit cleanup required. I'd like to avoid Pleather-ing or painting if possible.

If all goes well, I'll have four "complete" bezels from which to choose the one to final finish.

FC_fan

iTrader: (2)

well, you can't say you don't have options. lmao, seriously. but great

I'm thinking you should have just made one from scratch out of fiberglass. its easy enough the carve out of foam and maybe you would end up doing LESS work on it. lol. just messing with you but I'm doing one from scratch when I attempt this.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

In hindsight, you're probably right although I think you minimize the carving difficulty.

I had assumed that I could find and easily modify an OEM part but there's more to it than I knew.
Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

FC_fan

iTrader: (2)

I am now fixing a multitude of random annoyances/needed fixes on my car so it'll be a while I suspect. wiper bushing replaced, repacked wheel bearings, changing tie rods and control arm bushings mayhaps. getting interior BACK in the car other then column surround, body work, primer at least, etc. tired of the "junkyard dog" look I got going on, need straight body and one color. 4 years is enough of this.lol

clokker

iTrader: (2)

I'm happy to report that the techniques I applied to the G20 bezel worked well but sad to say the bezel itself just won't work.
This.
What at first appeared to be a very close dimensional match to the stock bezel turned out to be significantly different in critical areas.
It's difficult to explain, suffice to say that it's analogous to the issues I've had with the combo switches themselves...overcome one glitch only to find the problem has moved down the line and still lurks.

If I had a stock bezel, I'd probably try again with only the minimal amount of trimmage and retain as much of the stock switchgear as possible, so as to retain all the "subfunctions" (Hazard/rear defrost/lights UP, etc.).
Alternatively, follow FC fan's advice and make an entirely custom bezel.

The approach tried here is more trouble than it's worth, although the education has some value.

FC_fan

iTrader: (2)

there are a lot of different bezels out there, who knows. you just didn't get all that lucky although you do have some very decent results from what you did find. I'm going to make a card board template of the inner dimension of my impreza 2.5rs (GC8) bezel as it is also kinda rectangular. just to see how close it would be. I'm thinking its going to be smaller height wise though.

I bet something from some really random vehicle that you wouldn't think to look in would work perfect.lol, like an isuzu or fiat or something. wouldn't that be something.

only image I can find, not great shot but you get the idea.