Goldfinger

iTrader: (1)

I have decided to retire my 85 FB that I have been autocrossing in the FP class and am now going to run the 90 vert this season. I am doing some minor upgrades to try and make it fun to compete but knowing I can't put big bucks in to win at the high level.

So, I want to upgrade the shocks and struts and go with either the Racing Beat springs (have some on the FB) or go with Ground Control coil overs. I've searched the crap out of the forum but can't find much (at least much from the past year or two) that talks about the pro's and con's of either setup for a car that I still want to be decent to drive on the street but also have a decent handling ability for autoX. I plan to run the KYB AGX shocks and struts. Do the RB springs lower the car enough to matter or would you guys go Ground Control? Cost is an issue so Teins and other $1,500 setups are not an option for me.

Okay, fire away! Thanks.

nycgps

iTrader: (4)

if u already have the springs, just get AGX and be done with it.

I had some experience in cheap coilovers to Ohlins so in my opinion for coilovers, either you go something above 2K, or just don't do it at all.

not to mention for coilovers you have to do the settings yourself and I see a lot of people mess their settings up like that.

Hypertek

iTrader: (3)

you must have road on some busted *** coilovers than.. lol
even $700 coilovers are better than shock/spring.


But of course when this debate is brought up, people are either for or against them. You have to try them yourself.

Shock/springs are really limited in adjustments and right height.

coilovers have adjustable ride height via bottom mount perch which is correct way to adjust ride height without affecting shock compression as well as adjustable front camber plates. It is a complete package without having to do all the homework of figuring out which springs to go with on shocks.

Going to coilovers is like a night and day difference. Of course there are guys who will disagree with this, but more then likely they never tried them out or OWNED a car that had them.

Goldfinger

iTrader: (1)

I don't have the springs, shocks or coilovers yet. Thus my dilemma. I would love feedback from folks who run either the Racing Beat springs or the Ground Control coilovers with KYB AGX shocks. Even better, anyone who has run both setups I'd love to hear your opinion on both.

Thanks Hypertek and NYCGPS.

EigthCypher

iTrader: (1)

I had ground control coilovers with stock struts on my 88 N/A ,and they defintely helped with the roll, the ride was alot more stiff but thats to be expected, im about to buy a new set for my 10thAE so I would recommend them.

KingCobraV9

iTrader: (2)

I have also been debating coilovers vs springs. And for me its not about the ride height adjustment just the lower stance and proper wheel alignment.
That said and knowing guys with coilovers I would go springs. They seem to be better in the ride department.

nycgps

iTrader: (4)

if you don't have the springs. try to see if anybody is selling them and get a set of new AGX shocks and you should be good.

You can get AGX shocks for under 90 bux each shipped. not bad for a pretty good quality shock that has good ride for street.

I tried Tein, Stance, HKS, Ohlins, and a few other coil overs so my conclusion is, either you go more expensive stuff, or just stick with some good shocks & lower spring. going with cheap coilover usually means a total waste of time & money. YMMV.

and when I say expensive stuff I also mean quality stuff. TEIN is NOT one of them, even tho some of their stuff are in the "Expensive" area. Stance is ok if ride quality is NOT your main concern. HKS is alright but they don't last that long, Ohlins is very good but prepare to pay big bucks. Argosta is also really good and cost as much as Ohlins.

supportTHEezln

iTrader: (2)

Is this a daily driver?

I saw that you want to drive it on the street, but weekends or everyday?

If it's a weekend car, might as well go GC. Daily, I'd probably consider springs unless you don't mind the discomfort (I run DG-5s on the street and don't mind it at all).

Hypertek

iTrader: (3)

Hilarious thread lol


Which tein or Stance coilovers have you owned? Im not saying much, but people come to judge coilovers just from riding in friend's cars.. Thats not a really good way to judge them.

But yeah it isnt for everyone. If your like someone who doesnt like tinkering with things, then dont get them. Get shocks/springs set and forget.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

I think this is an important point.
Having massive adjustability is all well and good but realize that it means you have that many more chances to get it wrong.
Properly setting up the suspension is no easy task and requires a lot of time and testing.

Furthermore, once you get it "right" for one application, it's probably going to be wrong for the next, so you start all over again.

Goldfinger

iTrader: (1)

I like the simplicity of not having to tinker with things which would be the attractive thing about the RB springs, if they will give me some drop in ride height to help with cornering ability for autox. That said, the car is not a daily driver. I only drive it in the warmer months a couple of times a week, never in the rain. It is my "fun" car thus my desire to autox it some too. So I could set it up on coilovers to be more of the fun car setup and sacrifice some of the street driveability. I could always set it to be more comfortable on the street. True? More than anything, I am wondering how good of quality the Ground Controls are and whether they are worth the little bit extra to go that way versus Racing Beat springs only. I have had good experience with RB stuff over the years and trust their quality. Anyone with Ground Controls willing to weigh in on your experience?

Evil Aviator

I have KYB AGX dampers with Racing Beat springs on my 88 convertible, and the Mazda Comp Stage II coilover kit (similar to the Ground Control kit with Koni dampers) on my 88 coupe. I agree with nycgps, in that my coilover kit is far superior when I have it tuned by people who know what they are doing, but the non-coilover setup is nice because I can simply adjust the rears one or two clicks between short and long autocross tracks and call it good.

I don't think that AGX dampers would be good for coilovers on an FC RX-7 unless you can get rid of about 400lbs. Otherwise, I would recommend Koni, Bilstein, or other dampers intended for the higher spring rates of a racing coilover setup. Besides Ground Control, you can get a good deal on a coilover package if you register (free) with Mazda Comp, and ISC Racing also sells good race-quality parts. These are intended for SCCA IT/EP racing, but they would work fine for autocross too. Most people go with 400/250# or 400/275# springs on the coupe, which is more than what you are probably used to with your lighter FB RX-7. You may want to go a little higher with your vert if it does not have weight reduction. Hopefully you have somebody to help you out with your suspension tuning, as I am not all that good at this type of thing, lol.
http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/
http://www.iscracing.net/2nd_gen_rx7.html

The mild RB 139/134# springs seem to work pretty well with the AGX dampers, but I am still playing around with the settings and tire pressure since I only installed them a few months ago. The best deal I found on AGX dampers was at Tire Rack, but there are probably some deep discounters on the internet that I don't know about. Don't bother buying the KYB strut boots, as they will not fit properly. If you also need brake parts, Tire Rack usually also has decent pricing on ATE Super Blue brake fulid, Brembo brake rotors, and Hawk brake pads. Unfortunately, Racing Beat is the only source for convertible replacement springs, as they are different than that of the coupe.

rx7racerca

iTrader: (1)

There's not really any reason to go coilovers if you don't plan to cornerweight the car (yourself, or pay someone to do it, I'm guessing, since you've said you're not into tinkering with it). That said, coilovers will open up the possibility of more spring choices, and especially stiffer spring choices - but that may not be much value to you either, if you want to keep the car daily-driver comfortable. Typical spring rates with GC or other coilover sets will be much stiffer than lowering springs like the RB or Eibach streets - again, you can choose to go with lower rate springs on your coilovers than what others choose.

nycgps

iTrader: (4)

tried Basic & Flex. wow. I mean Flex is so so but totally not worth the price tag.

for Stance, I got the AL+. I sold it shortly after I installed it. you can search. I sold it when it has less than I think 1-200 miles to someone here.

Now the car is back to stock brand new Mazda spring & shock. I got it because its cheap(for me), and I want something comfy. not to mention gonna rebuild the engine and repaint the whole car soon. will keep the car stock for now, at least until Im bored with it.

my Rx-8 is using Ohlins, and It had HKS Hipermax III before.


what Im trying to say is, its easier for most people to just get shock & spring than to try to figure out the settings on their own + a lot of cheap/bad coilovers are actually WORST than a good pair of shocks & spring.

Goldfinger

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the good input guys. I think the RB springs/KYB AGX setup may be my best "middle of the road" approach. Takes the guesswork out of setting it up and keeps it streetable while still being able to "dial-in" a decent autox setup. After all, anything has to be better than the original stuff on the car that has 111,000 miles on it! I guess that is what you get when buying a car that has had several previous owners!

nycgps

iTrader: (4)

mine had 6 owners and when I got the car, it has 211K on the odo and it looks like lots of stuff still "original" including the shocks/spring, all rust & busted, the scary part should be brake hose, all 4 of them has crack on it, and when I bleed the brake, u see black crap coming out, I wonder how long has it been since the last fluid change. lol

so yea, I know exactly how u feel. haha

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

basically the pro's and cons of the RB vs GC work like this.

RB

its a fixed rate and length spring, so there is no height adjustment, and the rate is something like 10-15% more than stock, so its a fairly small change.

its cheap, and will work well with a stockish car, and the AGX's

the GC style

you get to choose the rate. you can pick a more more "race car" spring rate than RB did. we've run the AGX's road racing, up to about 450lbs in, in the front, but the shock is much better with 300-350 at the highest. since you pick the rate streetable is up to you. my friends car with 320 front springs and 220 rear on AGX's actually rides worse than 450/250 and konis. the shock has a lot to do with ride. you could actually even pick the same spring rates as the RB springs and just have the height adjustment if you wanted.

the GC stuff is ride height adjustable, once you set the car up, this doesn't move much, but it is an extra step. and it is nice to be able to corner weight the thing later

if it was my car i'd go with the GC/AGX combo i've done it before and its tough to beat for the $$. i'd run a 300-350front spring and a 200-250 rear. the best upgrade after that is to go to konis.

one other thing is that you might want to get some camber plates too. the stock alignment doesn't let you get enough camber up front, it needs more

Goldfinger

iTrader: (1)

Hmmmm. More good food for thought. I used to run adjustable Koni's on my FB and they were okay. It seems that folks on this forum that run the KYB AGX's rave about them so I have been leaning toward trying them.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

the AGX's are great for the money. ive had em on a couple of cars.

the koni's are better, but $$.

GregW

I have messed with Springs and adjustable dampning shocks in the past, they work ok when your on a budget. Im currently running Tein Flex on my FC and will never go back to springs and shocks. Ive got 3 different rim/tire combos, I can change the ride height without changing spring rate. If I head out on a hwy trip I set it soft, get to the track, pull out my cheat sheet in the glove box, twist the adjusters and Im ready to autox. I consider Tein Flex as the bottom of the Coilovers but MILES better than a spring shock combo. I paid $1400 for them ~6 years ago.

Dont get me wrong, you can get a spring shock combo dialed in, but your pretty much stuck with it.

Pele

iTrader: (28)

Point of note, the car comes form the factory with Coilovers.
Coilover is pretty literal... The coil is OVER the shock.

The coilovers that everyone talks about are threaded collars that allow adjustment of the ride height and spring preload.

I have Ohlins coilovers on my car, They're non-adjustable, just like the original equipment. They look almost identical in appearance to the factory equipment, except for the color. Upon installation, the car sat approximately 2 inches lower, I think I have an inch or so gap between the edge of the tire and the fender. (Stock wheels.) There is also almost no give to the suspension. Driving is rather painful, especially when I hit what would normally be a minor pothole. It's a lot harsher than a friend's car that has Ground Control coilover sleeves, Eibach springs, and Tokico Illumna shocks.


You mentioned that you have Racing Beat springs on your FB, but what is on the convertible currently? If it's stock, the Racing Beat or other aftermarket springs might actually RAISE the ride height.

Think about it, the stock springs are 20 years old. They have probably sagged more than an inch or two by now.


I would probably compare with others on this forum who compete in the same events that you do and see what they're running.

You did mention that you don't want to get a $1500 setup. I think the AGX and Racing Beat or Eibach springs come in at only a couple hundred and many people seem happy with them.

I just ended up with my Ohlins because they were cheap. I also don't want to spend thousands on a suspension setup when the car cost a couple hundred.


If you're not playing with the ride height and spring preload all the time, I think coilovers are going to be more than you need. The adjustable shocks will help you set the car up for different conditions though.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets5.html