88GXNoTurbo

Hi guys....new to the club......searched around as best i could to find an answer to my problem before posting however i'm an idiot when it comes to forums so bear with me.
Last week my clutch began to make a rattling noise when fully depressed to the floor. the clutch has never slipped, nor has the pedal ever stuck right to the floor. i knew i couldn't afford to have it looked at (and i don't know much about clutches), and it wasn't that loud that it scared me into thinking something was seriously wrong so i left it for a day or two. then the rattling began to occur when the pedal was all the way to the floor and also at the moment when the gear engaged, however the rattling would disappear once the clutch pedal was no longer in use. it also would not rattle in neutral, only with the clutch pedal depressed. once again i just procrastinated at looking at it and the next day to my dismay, the clutch sunk to the floor in the middle of shifting gears and would not engage or disengage the gears anymore. i muscled it into second and slowly drove home (got lucky and hit all greens). i've left it in my garage for 3 or 4 days now, and have already checked the fluid levels and seen that they are a little low, but still above the minimum, and the lines do not "seem" to be leaking.
Could it be that i just don't know enough about the master/slave cylinder assemblage that i couldn't tell that there was a leak, and therefore is a relatively cheap job to do, or could it be something more serious like the T/O bearing, or the cluth/pressure plates themselves. any help at all in identifying the problem would be greatly appreciated and thanx for the patience.

Bob_The_Normal

That all sounds like the throwout bearing.. it all falls right in line with that bearing going out.

--Gary

88GXNoTurbo

is there possibly any more info i could give you that would make that a certainty?
(and by the way, that was an unbelievably fast reply, i didn't even finish rolling a couple of smokes before you were on that one....kudos to you!)

RETed

I bet it's the pilot bearing.
There is no way to confirm this short of a "clutch job".

ENSURE the clutch hydraulics are working correctly.
Have a friend help you - one person actuates the clutch, the other inspect the clutch slave cylinder for proper action on top of the transmission.



-Ted

NSBerkland

same thing happened to me it was the pilot bearing.

truespin88

Judging by the fact that you drove the car by muscling it into gear, the disc and plate are fine.

A rattling noise when the clutch is disengaged (read: pedal in) indicates a bearing failure. However, being that pushing the pedal in doesn't disengage the clutch, one would think your clutch slave is failing to press the fork, the fork is bent, or the T/O is not contacting the plate.

So check the cheapest fixes first. Start with the hydraulics. Then check the fork. Then the t/o bearing. If you go so far as to pull the pilot then you might as well replace it.

88GXNoTurbo

thanx guys, i'll make the hydraulic tests tomorrow, and i'll post back with results.

*edit*
oh and by the way, how do i check the fork?

Bob_The_Normal

If he gets to checking the T/O bearing then he should replace the pilot bearing anyway... replace them both and get it over with.

EDIT: To check the fork... take off the clutch plunger (held on top of the bellhousing by two bolts... AND DO NOT PRESS THE CLUTCH DOWN WHILE IT IS NOT ON THE FORK OR YOU WILL NEED TO REBUILD IT/BUY A NEW ONE) and push back and forth on the fork and feel it... if it's broken (I highly doubt this... it's not something I would ever expect to break, but you asked....) it will probably fall in or something.

--Gary

truespin88

If you get past the fork and are still having problems, I will get the part # for the pilot because you'll need that when you go to Mazda to order it. It's like $10 for 3, and you can't get any fewer.

RETed

Wow, who sells them for this cheap?!?!?
We had a buy a bunch of them, and I swear it was more like $10 for ONE?
We were able to buy them singly...


-Ted

truespin88

I got them at the local Mazda dealership (they are primarily a Honda place, i-*******-magine that). I asked for pilot bearings for my 88NA, and they took like 45 minutes to find the part number, and it was like $10 and change. In the box there were three bearings identical to the one I pulled out. The clutch company gave me this huge ball-type bearing similar to one you might find in a rollerskate.

88GXNoTurbo

hey guys, i got a friend to look around under the hood and he's pretty certain it's not a hydraulic problem. so i called the local parts store and found a throw out bearing for $53 (CAD), and a pilot bearing for $16 (CAD), so this weekend i'm taking the car over to my parents' house cause they have a nice big garage to work in (rather than trying to do it in my apartment building's poorly lit underground parkade), and then monday we're gonna tackle the bearings.

one question though, is there any tricks to this i should know about that would allow me to do this without droppin the tranny, or is that a dumb question? also, the explanation i've got from the manual is a little vague (for me at least), could one of you more knowledgeable fellows give a quick run down of the proceedure involved in replacing the T/O and Pilot bearings. thanks again.

truespin88

Basically, you have to remove the transmission to get at them. When you do, you may as well inspect your clutch and plate for the simple fact that it's a bitch to get them out, and no sense putting them back in if they are going to fail anytime soon.

To remove the tranny, you must first do the following.
Remove the shifter. Pretty simple operation.
Remove the clutch slave. Another straightforward task.
Remove the exhaust. You only really have to take out the three cats, but I took the entire system down when I did mine. One less thing to drag under the car when I pushed it out of the garage to wait on parts.
Remove the heatshields. All of the ones that even look like the transmission MIGHT hit them. There are alot of them.
Remove the driveshaft. This is fairly simple to do, but in order to save yourself from needing a third hand, use the emergency brake to hold the rear wheels in place while you undo the bolts, 2 or so at a time, and then release the brake to turn the wheels so you can get at them all. Don't forget to take some form of paint or ink and mark the driveshaft and input flange on the differential so that you get the driveshaft correctly reinstalled.
At this point, you disconnect the speedo cable, and all of the electronic gizmos on the side of the tranny. Then, support the tranny using a tranny jack or a floor jack with a block of wood on it to spread the weight out and avoid cracking the case. Remove the tranny crossmember (it is only necessary to unbolt it from the body, not the tranny, as this adds much complication to an otherwise simple affair). Unbolt the tranny from the motor and double check that all wiring is disconnected, speedo cable is tied aside, no heatshields will inhibit removal, and that you removed the shifter from the extension housing.
To remove the tranny once it is supported on the jack, just move it back about an inch, tilt the tail end down, and wiggle it until the extension housing clears the body and the input shaft clears the clutch. Then lower it, and pull the tranny out. It's not a good idea to try to transport the tranny on the jack unless it is specifcally designed for it. The tranny isn't that heavy anyway, so just carry it yourself you manly beast.

To remove the t/o bearing, just push the top of the clutch fork (where the hydraulics would push it) until the original t/o falls off the input shaft. You've come this far, you might as well replace it at this point. To install the new one, just push on the fork until you can wiggle it onto the fork and the input shaft in the same manner as the old one was.

Next, you have to unbolt the clutch plate. You need a clutch alignment tool at this point anyway. So insert the clutch alignment tool and unbolt the plate. Then slide the plate off, and pull off the disk along with the tool.
To remove the pilot, insert the pilot puller attachment on a slide hammer into the pilot hole and expand the puller, then bang with the hammer. You should receive a pilot bearing (perhaps somewhat beaten up by the hammer) and what resembles a washer. Save the washer, chuck the bearing.

Assembly is the reverse of removal, but make sure you get the pilot fully seated, otherwise the tranny reinstall will be a pain in the ***. I know from experience.

88GXNoTurbo

sweet, thanx truespin.
i'll print that out and use it this weekend, appreciate you takin the time to write all of that out. anyway, i'll post again in about a week cause i have to fit this in around both my work schedule and my "mechanic" buddy's work schedule.
and thanks to all that replied so quickly, i've never seen a forum work this efficiently!

truespin88

it's rotary love.
if you let me know when you get around to doing this, and if you have access to the net while working, I can probably give some form of semi-live support. I've been down the same road so I figure I could at least help someone else get down it (regardless as to how little help I had)

dorkman52000

In addition to the pilot bearing, there's also a little seal at the end of the eccentric shaft that you should replace since you have to remove it to get to the pilot bearing anyway. Go to your Mazda dealer and ask for:
pilot bearing (part#N326-11-D03)
seal (part#1881-11-404-A)

If they're a good parts department like mine is, then they have them in stock. If not, get ready to wait a couple days while they order them. Also, they can print up a pretty detailed picture of that area if you need it for reference. I'm looking at them on my EPC right now but it's pretty gay because you cannot copy or send pictures from the catalog. Only print, then fax

Good luck!

88GXNoTurbo

thnx man....hey do you happen to have the part number for the release (throwout) bearing too?

Bob_The_Normal

Hit up Mazdatrix (www.mazdatrix.com) for those things... here's the one on their site for the throwout bearing: S4: 16-5100-FE84 S5: 16-510B-G561

Turbos are different of course, these are N/A part #s.

http://www.mazdatrix.com/f86-92nt.htm

--Gary

edmcguirk

It's a good idea to drain the oil from the tranny first because the drive shaft is the oil seal. Once you pull the drive shaft, if you tilt the tranny, all the oil wil spill out.

Maybe if you keep the tranny perfectly level it won't spill but I spilled the oil three times. First time I tried pulling the whole engine with tranny from the car. That's when I learned about the drive shaft. The second time I drained the oil for removal but thought I could keep the tranny level on installation (I prefilled the tranny) and most of it spilled out quietly while I was looking the other way wrestling the bellhousing into place. The third time I tried to keep the car tilted forward for tranny removal but as soon as I pulled the driveshaft, the oil spilled in my hair.

You don't have to drop a brick wall on me... um... uh... four times before I learn...

ed

rxspeed87

not really

I had the revs on my car up to about 7k and shifted (not a hard shift just paying attention to the hot chick next to me and forgot to shift) which I heard a little bit of a boom. at this point I tried to shift again and I couldn't

come to find out when I brought the car in to the clutch shop (which was where I was heading anyway) the clutch facing broke and wedge itself between the rest of the facing and the flywheel. was still able to drive just had to match gears and

dorkman52000

A little secret: (I don't know if anyone else knows) the Mazdatrix parts numbers are just the Mazda OEM numbers backwards. I'm not knocking Mazdatrix or anything, because they're a good Co. and I've bought stuff from them before, I'm just REALLY BORED today because there's no reason for me to be at work....nobody else is.

Anyways, a little example for you all. Mazdatrix part number, as seen above:
16-5100-FE84
The OEM number is : FE84-16-510 (I'm not sure where that extra zero comes into play...OEM is only "510" not "5100")
Same with 16-510B-G561 (Mazdatrix)...originates from G561-16-510B

Those guys are pretty smart; that makes it really really really simple to catalog their parts. I know I'm just bored, and I hope you all are off work already because I have to be here until 5:30pm....anyway, HAPPY NEW YEAR!

orangegarage

I can guarrintee that your pilot bearring is the problem. One bit of advice, better have a small chisle and a big hammer, three out of four trannys i do on rotary engines, I have to chisle out the pilot bearing piece by piece, dont get discouraged, it will be frustrating. Just chisle out one section, from front to back, then crush it in and pull with pliers. Good luck, and it is alot easier than it looks and these transmissions are very light, it may be easier to put it on your cheast and bench press it in, the jack may complicat it due to the exact angle you need to have to make it slide in. One more thing, get a clutch alignment tool, they only cost 2-5 bucks.

88GXNoTurbo

OK, so we've got the shifter out, the whole exhaust system out, the starter is out, and we've also removed a 3 panel heat shield from the passenger side of the exhaust. I guess now all we need to do is remove the bell housing bolts, drop the tranny and see what's busted right? I'm kind of unsure how to proceed, and if there are any tricks to getting these tranny bolts off cause they seem to be in really weird places. Anyway, any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

dorkman52000

Things are going to start getting really difficult if you haven't already taken the driveshaft out

If you have, then disregard that, and you're all set to take out the tranny bolts. Maybe check the FSM online or look at a service book (Haynes,etc) for help on transmission removal. But it sounds like you're pretty much there, I'd just take them out.

Look at one of the earlier posts in this thread, truespin88 put a lot of detail in it on the procedures that need to be followed. It looks pretty staightforward, but if you haven't already done everything he mentioned, I would do it now before you unbolt it and drop the thing.

88GXNoTurbo

will I need to support the engine, or will the engine mounts be sufficient?
and in reference to my previous post, i was trying to get some advice on removing the bolts themselves........should i go from underneath/above........will i need some crazy tools that bend around corners and sh*t or is it pretty straightforward?