RoToTuRbO

can you put a charburetor on a 13btII im just way too tired of these sensors and ****!!! i just went through a those used japnese motors in 8000 miles and $5,000 on sensors harness ecu and all other ***** so i just wanna tear everything down turbo injectors harness ecu and just go carb like the 1st gen's if there is a way please tell me i wanted to know if a 12a would go direct on the fc motor mounts and the tranny would fit. please give me all the info you got on carb on

gotdatfiyah

www.racingbeat.com has weber and holley carbs for fc's

NZConvertible

There is no way an EFI-related problem could cost $5000 to fix!

Makenzie71

Carbing an FC is actually a pretty interesting way to gain power. A carbed FC could see up to 250hp without internal mods...with the webber setup, that is.

NZConvertible

There are much better ways to get power than a carb.

You won't see 250hp from a NA 13B without bridgeporting, no matter what you feed it with. You can get 250hp from a 13BT with the stock EFI, so why carb?

RoToTuRbO

well right now im trying to find out some info from www.mazdaracing.com EFI has never worked with me ever i also had something wrong well something with the electrical system has screwed up somthing with the oil circulation in the motor so it pretty much fried my motor i mean the oil had pressure in it but im not sure how but my motor froze over to hell and im guessing it was an electrical problem so are the mazda techs are saying

1987RX7guy

iTrader: (3)

EFI screws up so your engine dies? wtf
\
Unless the S5 ECU stopped the MOP from working and didn't let you know with limp mode I don't think any other things could go wrong with the oil sytem. Isnt the oil pump for the cooling mechanical anyhow? it would have to loose the chain to not work. Oh and we ahve already discussed this more than once and EFI is always superior and carburators have their own separate complexities.

RoToTuRbO

yeah but im pretty sure itll be a lot more easier to work on im to much in a budget and i want my fc so going on a carb i think will be the most confortable and easiest way well anyways i wanted to know if theres anyone on this forum that can help me out

Evil Aviator

I suggest selling the TII and buying a 1Gen with a 12A. You could do a lot of work to your TII to convert it to a carbed 13B or 12A, but it's not going to be worth the cost or effort when you consider the low price of a running 1Gen that already has the engine that you like.

Unlike most of the other people here in the 2Gen forum, I actually understand that you may like a 1Gen better than a TII. If you look at my signature, you will see that the 88 TII is no longer there, but the 12A 1Gen is. I actually hate carbs, and I only have the carbed 12A because of the racing rules, but I do understand if you find EFI confusing.

SDrotary

you can get the motors for $850.00 and we have custom wiring harness for $850.00, and the ECU you can get for about 200-300 bucks, I don't see where you are getting $5000.00.

RoToTuRbO

well acutally does prices are for used products mainly for electrical parts i go for new unots

RoninAutoBoX

Going carb isn't all that bad. I know a few people who have done it and don't regret it. Expect to pay about $300 for the manifold, about $200 for the carb, and don't forget that you are going to have to remove allof the electronic **** and have the whole thing tuned once you are done. Don't forget the front cover conversion if your engine is not distributor equipped. But after you are done, you will have a car that is much easier to maintain and troubleshoot. Things simply are a lot simpler when your entire fuel management system is a tiny (in comparison) box.

I'm an electronics man myself, I have always been real good with electronics, but I can appreciate a carb setup. It really is something else. Those bastard can actually reach into their engine bay and everything.

Makenzie71

Not so Ronin. I'm actually using the CAS and stock coils to power by sparkplugs. I've removed all of the EFI components and left the ECU to recieve my CAS signals and fire the coils...but I did this for the better/easier/stronger spark delivery and pretty much all I wanted was to clean up my engine bay...

Yes, an NA S5 can see 250hp without internal mods. Check out some jap sevens with a webber setup...they're bad ***.

A carbed NA FC can out power a stock TII with little effort. TII's require more attention and maintanance after modding...hell they're needy SOB's before. A carbed setup is an easy way to get cheap reliable performance...just not that much.

RoninAutoBoX

Wow! Now that's one I hadn't heard of before! If that can be done, sheeeit, I just might go carb!

Can you PM me with some pics or more info on your car? I'd like to make an easier to maintain daily driver out of this car.

Makenzie71

I don't have pics of it right now. Plus it's in pieces again...I had to make a custom manifold because I couldn't afford a fabbed one...lol...I likes mine better anyways ...but one of the welds is busted all to hell and I'm redoing it. Mine's setup with a my custom tubular (mandrel bends of couurse) intake manifold and a holley 4-barrel of a pontiac 400. But it's pretty easy what I did...it's just remove evrything and cut out the wires you don't need. After I get a good running setup I'll have pictures and a decent writeup even on constructing the manifold.

NZConvertible

I've watched guys tear their hair our trying to get carb'd engines running. Fact is if you don't know what you're doing it doesn't matter whether it's carb or EFI, it'll cause you grief.
How many of those Jap cars had stock ports? Probably none. I live in the land of Weber'd rotaries and I assure you you cannot get 250hp from a stock-port 13B no matter how big the carb is.
Why is a stock TII always used as a benchmark? How many here people actually have a stock TII? Spend the money you'd spend on a complete carb conversion (including tuning) on a stock TII instead and you'll be going a lot faster.

Makenzie71

Ditto...you're right on that one. No matter which way you go you're just going to have to learn how to diagnose and work on the car. Ignorances kills more engines than anything else.

I don't really have proof...it's kinna a "take my for it if you want to." Can't prove my point but I have seen a 224rwp webber'd 13B with a stock port...S5 block, ported manifolds, full true-duals, and a couple other lil things. Most of his gains were from the ported manifold and the full exhaust.

A stock TII is a benchmark because of the attitude most NA drivers recieve from turbo owners...though the attictude isn't felt much at all here as compared to other forums. 5 reasons to carb instead of investing in a TII:

1...TII's are rare at best. How many do you see every day?
2...Cheap. A very well performing setup witha tuning can be had for $500-600.
3...Reliable. FC's are known for their pesky electrical problems. If nothing electrical is needed then it doesn't matter if it breaks.
4...Easy. A webber or holley setup is easy to tune and maintain if you put some studying into it...and if you're not stupid...of course if you've gone through $5K chasing an elec gremlin this certainly isn't the route for you.
5...Clean. Ever see a propperly setup webber seven? This alone is reason enough for me to get one...but I'll have to stick with my holley for now...

Makenzie71

i forgot to add "It's a to each his own kinna thing. I like it cuz it's simple and cheap and I'm not looking for big power.

RoninAutoBoX

If you don'tknow what you are doing, stepping out of your bed can lead to your death.

The difference is, a properly setup new carb working normally, runs properly, a 13 year old Fc electrical system working normally, should have a ton of problems. I know most, if not all of them, which is why the first items you would be able to grab out of my toolbag are a wire stripper/crimper, a multi-meter, and a spool of 14 gauge(I have other gauges as well). Just ask anyone who went to Moroso with me about how I diagnosed and repaired a split TPS harness by re-wiring it in the middle of a K-Mart parking lot and proceeded to re-ground the engine. I know my ****, but let's face it, these problems are as normal on our cars as moving forward is to another car at this age.

RoninAutoBoX

Definitely. i wouldn't run a carb right now. I understand how to deal with a screwball electrical system much better than I understand a carb, but I want to learn so that I can exploit the simplicity.

White_FC

haha lol, I was just about to make a post about this dude wanting to convert his EFI turbo rotor to a carby turbo rotor... and IMHO it being a very silly thing to do..

Setting up a carbed rotor is reasonably hard if you don't know what your doing...

Setting up a carbed TURBO rotor (or any engine for that matter) is damm near impossible to setup if you don't know what your doing without going through a few engines first..

It'll almost definatly work out WAY more expensive to get a carbed turbo rotor happening than it would putting a BRAND NEW after market EFI computer in your car and not having to worry about silly little FC3S electrical problems...
(incidently I've never had ANY electrical probs with my Dec. '85 FC.... )


Well, thats what i think anyway...

NZConvertible

I'll wait for more proof on that one. That's over 260fwhp, 60% more power without porting, which sounds a bit far-fetched. As I said, I've seen enough Weber'd rotaries over the years to know what to expect from them.
This thread is supposed to be about carbs, not turbos.
See above. Besides, a carb can't be considered a performance alternative to a turbo. Not if you're actually expecting similar results.
I'd rather save for a decent EFI system than take such a huge step backwards in technology.
I've never had an EFI-related breakdown in 8 years of daily-driving EFI turbo rotaries.
An EFI setup is also easy to tune and maintain if you put some studying into it. Actually I partly take that back. Whether you're tuning a carb or EFI, you need to actually know how to tune. It's just as easy to blow up a carb'd engine by fiddling with stuff you don't understand. The main reason I see people changing to carbs is because they don't understand their EFI. So why not learn it? It ain't that hard.
Literally dozens of them. Ever seen a properly set up EFI system? Most of the mess in the engine bay isn't even EFI-related. It's emission controls or all the other electrical systems in the engine bay.

Why should it have a ton of problems? Does anyone here actually have a ton of EFI-related problems on their car? I think you're overstating the case here. If a car has problems caused by 13yo components, then it seems more logical to replace the dodgy components, not the entire fuelling system. Other than a very small 3800rpm hesitation that comes and goes at random, I have no EFI-related problems. Of the FC owners I know personally, none seem to have all the problems you claim they should.

White_FC

Well it probably was done on one of those over optimistic USA dynos for starters
Even still, I agree NZConvertible, sounds a bit off the mark of what a stock port engine will do... or else the IP racing people in Aus (NZ aswell? not sure about the IP scene there ) wouldn't be only JUST cracking the 300rwhp stage with their EFI Bridge Ports.....

Well said, I have no complaints with my FC, only electrical prob I had with the stock ECU in mine was a verrry slight 3,800rpm studder... now with the microtech, have no prob's at all (still using stock ECU for timing aswell)

RoninAutoBoX

Then the owners you know are very lucky. Everywhere I go I see one problem after another related to an electronic issue, in most cases being bad grounds, cracked wires, leaky or destroyed vacuum hoses, or sensor failure. You can replace the components with new ones, but that adds up, and can be difficult to diagnose in a lot of situations. I have seen some of the worst.

I don't know what kind of carb setups you have been looking at, but they aren't that expensive. Certainly not even close to as expensive as aftermarket EFI, and on a tuning level, going with an aftermarket computer requires substantially more attention and time.

The main reason i see people going with carbeurators is because they know full well that the most expensive component in the system, is the system, and that system costs less brand new than half a set of our injectors by themselves.

Carbeurators do have distinct advantages, I think thisis one of those times that the point of failure analysis applies. There is simply less to go wrong, and if it does, remove 4 bolts and replace your engine management in 30 minutes.

EFI can't manage that kind of simplicity.

You seem to be under the impression that I am claiming carb>EFI, but that is not the case. I know which one I have under my hood right now, and I'm not sorry for it.

NZConvertible

Bad grounds are cheaply and easily fixed. Strictly speaking most of the vacuum hoses are not part of the EFI system. Most are emission controls that get removed either way. There are only 3 or 4 (MAP, FPR, injector bleeds) that are required for the EFI system and again, they're cheaply and easily replaced either as a repair or as insurance. Cracked wires and failed sensors I'll give you, but I still think they less common than you're making out. I've had neither in over 100,000 miles of running these cars.

Sure you see a lot of posts here about these sorts of problems, but that's because people only post if they have a problem. Nobody posts to say "Hey, my AFM worked perfectly today."