Yes look at the bottom part of my statement. I do agree that **** alarms are ****! But Installation is more important when considering an alarm. Every alarm company as high and low end versions in their product line, and that is what I was reffering to.

 

With over 18 years of installing (and 6 of those actually working at DEI and 50% of that time actually training installers how to install DEI product in the field) a MECP masters certification (as well as I was one of the people that helped write the security section of the masters test) I think perhaps I should define it a little further, and let you in on a little of how the car alarm manufacturing really is...

The installation is without the doubt the most important thing to do with car alarms. In fact I am gonna prove it to you based on your own statement.

For example you mention that you had problems with K-9; which is surprising actually. Because K-9 is made in the same exact factory in Taiwan that All the DEI stuff is including the newer Viper, Clifford, and Avital, and even Audiovox prestige. In fact 75% of all the alarms sold in the North America are made in that Neutek factory in Taiwan. Don't believe me??? Ask your DEI rep next time you see him... he'll him and haw about it, and tell you that all the systems are designed in Vista, CA at the DEI "factory", but pressed enough and he will admit they are actually made at Neutek.

Now, yes the companies do spec the quality of the product used internally (like the transistors and the relays), and most companies beta through the chips (which are coded by the same exact guys that coded the DEI ones) but as far as over all quality it is all pretty much the same. Now DEI does spec some cool stuff into the alarms, and the American check of the coding is very good (and that does help make the product slightly superior). But to compare apples, it would be the DEI product is just from a much bigger tree in the orchard that the farmer prunes a little more often.

So frankly if you had trouble with installing K-9 I suspect that you may have trouble with DEI product as well.

So I can't emphasize more on the proper installer putting in any alarm, not just my favorites.

Does the installer put the alarm right under the dash on the drivers side (2nd worst place to put an alarm system) so that the first time you see the under the dash there it is???

Does the installer put the siren just under the hood so it is easily seen as soon as the hood is opened??? I know I always put my siren hidden inside a fender opening or under the battery tray or hidden under a couple of other things. Sure it takes 15 minutes more, but if the criminal can't find it easy...

Does the installer cover the wiring he has installed to match what is done by the factory???

Does the installer have a hood pin, trunk pin, door triggers??? Did the installer include starter kill?? Or even parking light flash??? Did he use a relay on the parking light flash if the circuit has more than 8 bulbs???

Did the installer mount the shock sensor by just screwing it into the support of the dash, or Zip Tye it in to a harness or HVAC duct like they are supposed to be?

These are all simple things that a "professional" installer would do.

Hell, I even crimp and solder most of my under hood connections as well as my heavy gauge wire connections under the dash, but I know that is a bit extreme.

Now how can you tell a good shop...? They have pride in what they do... they had pride in the product... they had pride in their shop and would always be willing to show it off to the next customer.

They were the ones that took you out to show you a car they did, and how clean the install was.

They were the ones that showed cars being worked on in the shop right that second. They were not concerned with "insurance reasons are why you can't watch that install."

But I could tell the shops when I went into the field that had the most problems with installing alarms...that claimed the DEI alarms or Alpine alarms were crap.

These were the shops that were always dirty, scraps of wire day after day in the corners of the shop... garbage cans over flowing, yesterdays lunch wrappers still on the counters... hell even the bathrooms were always dirty with the sinks covered in dirty soap scum...

These were the guys that had no pride in the shop they worked, so what would make anyone think they had any pride in the install on someone else’s car. Sure every shop gets dirty during the day... but every shop and yes even the bathroom should be clean every night before closing.

Because if the shop owner doesn't care if he puts his butt on a dirty toilet and washes his hand in a dirty sink... he sure is not going to care about a crappy install were you can see the wires just pokeing your head under the dash.

 

I really don't know if they are made in the same place or not, so I will take your word for it since I am completetly out of the CA&S bussines. However I know what I was doing and so my peers at the time. I'm not making it up; K9's are one of the examples, and I had some problems with Boss alarms as well.

How would you explain why the K9 beepers wouldn't activate\deactivate the alarm? Even if you where sitting inside the car?

Then, cut the K9 harness and install the viper\avital on the same exact location, on what ever is left of the k9 harness. Guess what? Customers never complain again about alarm problems.

So that's basically the whole ordeal. Cusomers having problems with K9's alarm, after numerous customers complaints, car shop decided to replace the alarms with Dei\Avital, we just cuted the K9 harness and hook up the new harness to what ever was left from the K9's; no more problems and case closed with the customer.

How could you explain that, other than blaming the K9's? Installer? could be, but here is another situation. My father used to live in MD while I was in PR, he purchased a RX7, and had a K9 installed on his car (not by me), problem after problem. Replace the alarm with a Viper (by me) no more problems, NONE, cero, nada, finito.

I know is easier to think it's the installers fault, but I take pride on what I do now, not to mention what I used to do before; which was my job and hobby.

I agree installation is the first issue, hell I'm sure it will take a experience person at least 1.5 hours in order to find my alarm module and that is using the right tools. But as stated before, low quality products with yield low quality results, even if its install by the best installer out there.

Sorry for rambling!

 

generally when a remote is not working, as you described... it is being jammed by an electronic in the car or area.

It could be that your area has problems with the freq that the K-9 uses (since DEI and Alpine are one of the few that do use a superhet 434 system). Its hard to say. All alarms will be jammed out if the interfering signal is strong enough.

But I consider failure of the alarm on things like relay that fails or falseing... jammed is not really a failure or anything that most systems can do much about.

And without seeing the install and the wiring it would be impossible for me to say if the install was related to the problems you were having. But it certinly could be possible for the K-9 alarm to have more strict requirements for locations in vehicles. All the more reason for professional experienced installation!

edit
But K-9 really is not in the top teir systems out there, and once again with any system, be it an inexpensive one like the K-9 or the top of the line Alpine, if the install is poor the system is not going to last, and worst of all the customer is not going to use it.

 

Hey man,

I agree with the installation part. You can have the top of the line, and if the installation is a poor one, you will have poor results. Same as poor quality alarm with top notch installer, the customer will receive poor results.

I do consider a jammed remote a failure, if the client:

-Can't get into his car without deactivating his alarm from the remote controller
-Can't get into his car in a reasonable time
-Can't get into his car without attracting atention
-Can't get into his car without waking up the whole neighborhood.

100% of the customers will fed up with this sooner or later. We used to check all settings, conections, and 95% of the problems were solved by re adjusting the remote controller. A week or two later, the customer was waiting on us on a Saturday morning.

K9's not only had a problem on oour area (PR) but where my fathe used to live (MD, which is very very far away from PR). It might be true that it was an area issue, but from what you are saying; K9's had problem in different areas (hence PR & MD).

Now with a Viper I haven't had a problem in PR, nor my father in MD\VA\DC & NY; and the same goes with Avital in PR.

That's been my experience with car alarms.

 

Wow, you scare me.&nbsp Having been with the industry back in 1988, you don't run into many of the "old timers" who can recognize the acronym "CAN".&nbsp My interest in car audio waned back in mid 90's...


-Ted

 

wow this has turned into a crazy debate, but its been very informative, thnks guys.
Ok so now i know what kind of alarm to get, its just a question of finding a good shop. And i think thats going to be tough cuz it seems the only thing around here is either places like circuit city or small independant car audio shops. But next time i go in ill go in with a lot more knowledge and what to look for, like that MCEP certification.

Or maybe ill take my car to Icemark to get my alarm installed

 

Yep... A real old timer... remember the Alpine 7900 (which was really a sony CD player) I put the first one in California into a car in San Diego, back when I was with John at the Radioman.

And I had two cars in both the CAN 1 and the CAN 2 in Bakersfeild.

Hell I even have an old NACA test CD laying around.

But, I actually have been out of the biz for a couple of years now. You know when you get to your late 30's it gets old bending over in the dash, and trianing the damm newbie installer that worked for 6 months at a CC and think they are ready to do highend installs.

I actually bought my 87 sport new after this guy brought me a early T2, that the dealer put an alarm in and couldn't make the car run right after that. I remember being impressed with how the FC was made and after fixing the T2 (the plug on the main relay was loose, the dealer had replaced the CAS, the ECU, the igntion switch, and half dozen other things), so I had to go buy one.

 

Okay loved reading this thread and now am looking for a place to buy a DEI alarm for my FC. My local shop wants 160.00 for a bottom Viper 300.. That seems high as I can get a decent Hornet for 108.00 on EBAY but that has stuff I don't need

Anyway know a good place to buy an alarm mail order or online? I have already decided I want to install it myself.

 

Do you have any experience with alarms? Listen to Icemark story on how he fell in love with the FC, something similar might happen to you and leave you stranded.

I really don't know any online place where you can get an alarm, and quite honestly I wouldn't buy one online either. Also remember that you will loose the alarm warranty if it's not installed by a professional.

On any case, if you have question concerning the installation just ask. Specially since Icemark knows the color cables on the FC by heart

 

I'm closer than CA

J/K

 

I have never instaled an alarm from scratch but I have taken out the alarm in my other car and put it back in. Also had to bypass the starter kill a few times with my old alarm shorting out like it used to do..

I have instaled many a car stereo and I have the colors of the wires for the factory alarm harness so it's going to be a sinch to put it in..

I'm not a kid or anything and I trust my ability to work on my car a hell of a lot more than I would some $6.00 an hour installer at CC or Audio Express.. I just think it's crap that the local high end shop wants to charge me $250.00 to put in my alarm with door actuators and I know I can do at least as good of a job.

When I was a lot younger and didn't know crap about electronics I paid the local pro shop 200.00 to install my alarm with no options.. they said they were the best blah blah.. well they didn't even bother hiding the alarm.. it was in the kick panel and you didn't even need a screwdriver to access it.. and then they put the starter kill relay in plain sight.. you could look under the friggin dash and see it.... I don't like paying people to install things anymore.. don't even let me get into how much they charged me to put in my car stereo..

 

About being a sinch to put in........I don't know about that! But hey, I not saying you can't. If you feel like you can do it, then you can. Don't hessitate to ask questions, I must admit that this is not rocket science, but there is more to it than splicing wires, specially when it comes to reliability.

Icemark third or fourth post has some good pointers on how to or not to do when installing an alarm.

 

A couple things to think about... most shops don't have any professional installers working for $6/hr (Heck I paid trainees more than that). Typical installer makes a flat hourly wage around $12-$16 an hour or is on a commisson scale (or a combo of the both... for example the last shop I worked at, I made $16/hr + 10% on labor i did and 5% on any sales I made). Most shops have a flat hourly rate, which install is based on. In some of the high end shops I have been at it is $75 and hour, but $50 an hour is pretty common on the west coast. So if it takes me on average 2 hours or so to put in two DL motors and wire them, that is about $100-$150 + parts. So $200 or $250 to put in DL motors is not unreasonable.

But besides that. When you take your car into a shop, you are paying that person to do it right. For example, maybe when you pull the radio surround, you crack and break it. Whooops your fault, you gotta buy a new one. But if you took it into a shop, and the shop did the same thing (maybe the guy had forgot about the top screws), then the shop must fix the broken part. Your also paying someone that does have experience. Someone that everyday he works on the electrical system of cars.

I don't know what you do for a living, but short of flipping burgers it is probably something you went to school for, or at the very least had some training. I bet you are pretty good at it too, right? But were you good at it over night? or was there a learning curve?? Were you always good at the job... or only in the last couple of weeks?

Well it is the same for an installer. I know when I was teaching trainees in the shops, they would spend months just learning the basics. Alarms were the last thing that they got taught. Heck, even building enclosures came first. Why??? because I am mean??? nah... its because a security system is the most intensive interface of wiring into a vehicle. Stereo's are pretty basic, because really you are only tapping a couple of wires.

But if you tap the wrong ignition wire or your connection fails the car could be disabled while driving. Improperly fused and it could catch fire. or simpler even dumb little things like mounting and adjusting the shock sensor must be done right or the alarm will false and the customer won't use it. Which is the same as if there was no system in there to start with.

So for security, I am sure there are people that can install them fine, but I highly (and I think most other installers would agree) highly recommend professional installation.

The little you pay is worth the peace of mind and the knowing you have a recourse if something is done wrong.

 

Okay well cinch isn't the right word.. easier than without the factory wiring harness.. yes :-)

I was exagerating by saying 6.00 an hour but I have had a lot of bad expereience with having pros install stuff in my car and very little in terms of satisfaction after something goes wrong.. Someone like yourself Icemark.. you know the FC and I would trust you to install an alarm.. Now then I would be a little more willing to pay to have you instal an alarm that I would not have to worry about..

The problem is I don't if I trust these guys that work at the stereo shops.. I really don't.. I know about the two screws up there.. you know about the screws but I am afraid that they don't... Hell I was there yesterday and one of the owners was trying to tell me we could do door speakers in my car and I kept telling him there was no way they would fit becuase of the sheetmetal down there... I can just see them breaking something and then refusing to pay to have it replaced..

 

RylAssasin
Check out Rich's Car Tunes in Watertown. Rich Inferrera is well respected in the industry. He even started his own installer training school RITOP

 

I always hated disconnecting the battery (which I DID do for safety) on my previous car to work on anything electrical or gas-related b/c the alarm siren would blare into my ear as I reconnect the battery, so I'd have to endure screeching loud noise under the hood for a couple seconds until I could turn it off. Is this a safety mechanism for all alarms?

 

On the current DEI and Alpine alarms, they remember what state the alarm was in when the power was removed.

For example if the system was not armed when you disconnected the battery, it would not trigger when you reconnected the battery.

But if the system was armed when you disconnected the bat, then when you reconnected, the system would triggger.

 

Actually I used to put speakrs down there all the time on the 86-87 models. I would just pop rivet in an aluminum panel there then cut the hole. Plenty of room then, and a nice flat spot for mounting.