IAN

iTrader: (3)

Moving to redtek 12A. http://www.redtek.com/#

Anybody know the amount of 12A that is needed or what was orginally installed in the car?

It is compatable with existing freon and oil?

thanks,
Ian

Suiicidalpenguin

Should really read about the product as it says blatently it is if you read the information about it. It is a direct replacement for R12/R134, though it would most likly be easier to put a retrofit kit on (if the car hasn't been moved to 134) just to make it easier.

Edit:
->Goto main page of Red Tek
->Click Tech Info
->Click Red Tech 12a
->READ as the second Q&A is your answer.

IAN

iTrader: (3)

I read this previously before my post..... (As you so kindly noted)

A. RED TEK® 12a™ is a proprietary blended ultra high efficient hydrocarbon refrigerant designed as a direct replacement for 134a and R-12 substitutes

But my FSM does not state the Freon used nor do I have a sticker on the car saying what it is. So I was wondering if anybody else had success using this kit too.

But so far from what i have read today you can just put it in.



Thanks for your reply.

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

wow! That is seriously cool stuff!

You could probably run it to about 35 PSI suction pressure.

coldfire

iTrader: (1)

Ian, it is compatible but you might want to discharge the system first.

for refrigerant quanities here you go:
http://www.mastercool.com/auto_mazda.html

honestly though i've had the good results just using the sight glass to see how much refrigerant i need.

REDTEK should probably have a conversion chart or number to tell you how much 12A is equivalent to R12.

also this is a good thread if you haven't read it already:
https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generation-specific-1986-1992-17/official-its-summer-there-going-million-ac-questions-thread-300090/

Terrh

iTrader: (7)

you still have a/c?

sooo jealous.


I used 1 can of the stuff in my car 2-3 years ago, didn't remove the old stuff or anything. I had no issues, until I decided to remove it for my FMIC.

pfsantos

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=coldfire;7053497]
for refrigerant quanities here you go:
http://www.mastercool.com/auto_mazda.html

Coldfire - Thank you. I've been looking for this info and actually posted this question last week. All I got were some people selling the benefits of this or that gas and no one had the baseline quantity as factory installed.

Moderators - can one of you put the chart referenced above in the FAQ or Archive? Conversion values are a bit easier to find...but that would be nice too.

staticguitar313

iTrader: (2)

so would this product be a better choice than freeze 12?

coldfire

iTrader: (1)

no problem. but actually this thread here gives tons of info and i posted the same info in it also:
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=300090


honestly i think most of these R12 replacements are more or less generically the same.
what people should really do rather than debate which of these gases are better is to properly get their system evacuated and leak tested before putting anything in.

i have heard good things about the REDTEK product.
i personally went to autorefrigerants.com and used their ES-12a product. they have a DIY kit you can buy that includes everything you need and the price was good. it's been working great for me for 2 years now, my AC is super cold.
http://autorefrigerants.com/co00033.htm

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

NO!

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Let me explain.

This is the same 'stuff' as ES12 and other HC refrigerant replacements. This is NOT the same or anywhere close the to the same performance as Freeze 12, autofrost or other non HC based refrigerants.

Do they work? Yes-Sort of. The answer is really only accurate if expressed in two parts.

Part 1.) Do they work? Yes. They condense and vaporize at similar pressures and temperatures as R12 and R134a. So they do in fact cool in our systems.

Part 2.) Do they work? NO! At least, not very well. Not when it is really hot. Not when the humidity is really high. Not when the inside of your car is really really hot. IOW, not when you really need your A/C to work.

You see, the mere fact that the refrigerant is condensing and vaporizing doesn't mean that the refrigerant can move enough heat in YOUR system! The system charged with the HC refrigerant has probably less than 50% of the heat moving capacity as other refrigerants. Take a look at the referenced conversion chart. Do you really think that 6 oz. of proprietary magic **** is capable of moving as much heat as 18oz of R12, the finest refrigerant ever created by mankind?

Think of it in these terms. A number 18 gauge wire carries electricity, but you would never use it for the power wire to your amp, because it doesn't have enough capacity to carry enough electricity to run the amp. The amp might run at really low volumes, but when you turn it up, you are in trouble. You need a wire with adequate electrical current carrying capacity. A/C system capacity is a little more complicated than that. but not much.

Every refrigerant can be rated for the capacity to move heat. That rating is one of the reasons why we KNOW that R134A can only move 85% of the heat that R12 can move. R134A systems work just great, but they have to be sized for the refrigerant. If you retrofit 134a into R12 systems, a known issue is that the system capacity is reduced about 15%.

Now, you could design a system to work fine with HC refrigerants, but they would need to be designed and sized correctly for the application. They would need to be sized to have larger volumes of refrigerant, larger heat exchangers etc. than current automotive systems contain.

This is not a BS post. I have used HC's extensively since 1995. I have blended my own HC's to make my own refrigerant. I have used both ES12a and Duracool. I have charged my 1990 RX7, a 1995 Honda Accord, an 88 CRX, a 92 Celica convertible, a 1995 Ford E150 7-seater with front and rear air, a 2000 Nissan UD 1400 Reefer unit (Carrier Transicold) and I currently have a 1992 Celica GT hatch that has ES12a in it as we speak. Several of these cars were charged more than once, as I questioned my results and methods extensively. I went through several cases of ES12a and a case of Duracool, and I can't tell you how many pounds of butane, iso-butane and propane.

Everyone of these installations shared the same characteristics. They worked great in mild weather, but when it got hot, the cooling was inadequate. When it got really hot, the cooling stopped working at all. The principal is fine, but the application just doesn't work.

Now, the real question is, will HC refrigerants work for you? If you are in Canada, maybe so. If you have ever made the statement 'A/C is for Pussies', then yes, HC's are the *perfect* refrigerant for you. If you live anywhere that is hot, humid or hot and humid then no, HC's are not for you.

In my educated opinion, there are only a very few appropriate refrigerants for automotive use in existing systems. The best refrigerant is the one your car was designed for, and in the case of RX7 it is R12. Freeze12 is a close second, Autofrost works fine. R134a kinda sux in a 7 but is useful enough for you Northerners and Canucks.

I personally use R12 in my 7 and in my wife's Celica Convertible, because that is the refrigerant they were designed for. In these applications R12 rocks. My other cars also use the refrigerant they were designed for as well and in those other systems, R134a rocks. The 92 celica gt is a test sled for A/C trials and my teenage son's car. It gets whatever I am playing with at the moment. (r152 is on deck).

Sideways7

iTrader: (7)

I'm glad you posted, because jackhild, because I don't have half the info that you do. Anyway, I have been in cars with a number of different r-12 replacements, and the only one I have been in that worked as stock is Freeze-12. It is just as jackhild said, they just don't have the cooling capacity of r-12. Our systems were designed for r-12, and they need something with similar properties to r-12. r-134 works great in cars designed for it, but its just not the same because r-12 didn't need as beefy of a system, basically. I wholeheartedly reccommend freeze-12. You can get it from http://www.sherco-auto.com/fr4012.htm for quite good prices, but you do have to have an MVAC certification to buy it (as you do at all legal places.) You can get that certification very easily at www.epatests.com. You want the EPA 609 test. You can read the material then take a quick test and you are done. It shouldn't take more than an hour or two.

coldfire

iTrader: (1)

jackchild59 i will trust your results for the simple fact you live in Texas, haha.

BUT, that's not to say it doesn't get hot up here the odd days. i've driven in 100+ degree F 80% humidity weather. the ES12a seems fine to me. when i initially charged the system using the recommended quantity it wasn't blowing very cold and the sight glass wasn't as it was supposed to. i charged it a bit more than recommended and it is fine. i could also get ES12a in Canada so it was cheaper for me.
if i ever need to i guess i will try freeze 12 next.

as for the original R12 gas, that's all fine and good but purchasing the stuff is a bit of hassle and isn't cheap, and i'm assuming jackchild you are using the appropriate disposal techniques for freon?

scrip7

iTrader: (6)

After retrofitting close to a hundred cars from r12 to r134a since 1994, I will shed some light on this subject. In my opinion, the best refrigerant to use in your rx7, obviously, is r12. If you wish to convert it to r134a due to cost or availability, consider this fact:

The single most important component in the a/c system that has the greatest affect on cooling efficiency is the condenser. The stock condenser is a "serpentine type", meaning the flow of refrigerant starts at the top and goes back and forth through a flat tube and exits at the bottom in liquid form. The stock condenser is sized pretty well for r12, but doesn't have enough capacity to make the same cooling with r134a. Most cars today use "parallel flow" condensers, having tiny flat aluminum tubes very close together, with flow resembling that of a coolant radiator. These have much greater capacity and is a major player in cold a/c from such a lousy refrigerant. Universal parallel-flow condensers are available, but the a/c hoses will need to be custom-made to make it work. Here's an option for you guys that I use on my N/A:

If you want to use your OEM condenser, as I have, look to see if you have an electric "pusher fan" installed. They came from the factory on TurboII and cars with auto trans. My GXL didn't come with one, so I found one on eBay from a TII for about 20 bucks. The studs are already there to mount the fan, and you can wire a common relay to turn it on either when the compressor kicks on or possibly from the high side pressure switch. Use a dryer that is compatible with 134a (most nowadays are) and install your retrofit fittings. Pull a vacuum of at least 29" for 1 hour and recharge with r134a. With a pusher fan and a known-good clutch fan or electric fan, charge until your high side pressure is about 275psi @ 2500 rpm, ambient temp around 90 degrees. This should give you a dash vent temp around 50 degrees, not like r12, but tolerable. Should you be able to convert to parallel flow, expect another 10 degree drop or so at the vents.

EDIT: Don't forget to add the proper amount of refrigerant oil. I used 5 oz. Ester oil. Also, the suction (low) side pressures are less important in determining refrigerant charge than discharge pressures. Using the sight glass on r134a is worthless compared to r12.

IAN

iTrader: (3)

Thanks,

Is there some sort of vacuum applied during discharge or just having no charge I can charge it up without worries of air in the system?

coldfire

iTrader: (1)

i filled mine up with atmospheric air in the system (no vacuum or pressure), seemed to work fine.
just keep an eye on the sight glass and you might have to put in a bit more after driving awhile.

Aaron

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Ding ding ding ding-We have a Winner! The answer to this question is the #1 indicator that the HC refrigerant 'industry' is bogus and full of horseshit. Ian, you asked this question early. It took me a couple of years and many many failed installations to realize that there is no real hope of good performance from these materials.

I am not making this stuff up, all information comes from the Red Tek site. (BTW, nearly the same lines of B.S are located at the ES12a and Duracool sites.)

From the Red Tek Charging 12a pdf :


First they tell you to recover ALL the refrigerant from your system so you comply with Federal Regulations:
"Evacuation of the refrigerant in the system is recommended prior to installing RED TEK® 12a refrigerant...Recover all existing refrigerants into a suitable approved container and mark appropriately,"


Now, they instruct you to not mix refrigerants to comply with Federal regulatons:
DO NOT MIX REFRIGERANTS. Mixing refrigerants is illegal in Canada and the US and will not offer the maximum performance available from RED TEK® 12a.

Then they tell you to not charge into a 'hard vacuum'
RED TEK® 12a Refrigerant is installed through the LOW SIDE SERVICE PORT AND IS CHARGED AS A LIQUID INTO A "0" ATMOSPHERIC CONDITION. DO NOT INSTALL INTO A SYSTEM WHERE A HARD VACUUM EXISTS.

Now, all you budding scientists out there, just WTF is a 'hard vacuum'? Vacuum is measured (not described) by two methods that I know of, inches of mercury and microns. There is no hard or strong or weak or soft vacuum.

So let me summarize:
1.)They tell you not to mix the refrigerants or the magic sh*t won't work.
2.)They tell me to remove ALL the refrigerant from my system, the result of this is a vacuum.
3.) Assuming the system is leak-free and holds the vacuum, it is time to add refrigerant.
4.)But now they tell you that if you charge into a 'hard vacuum' that the magic **** won't work.


Can anyone tell me just what the f**k is supposed to be in the system in between the vacuum created by the total legal removal of the previous refrigerant and the addition of the Red Tek magic ****?

If you ask them, they won't tell you.

Do your selves a favor and don't waste your money, time or energy on this Magic Hopeinabottle ****. There is plenty of documentation of successful use of Freeze12 and Autofrost, not to mention R134a and R12.

If anyone wants them, I have a couple of cans of Hope that I would sell.

scrip7

iTrader: (6)

I always say use r12 if you don't have a large system leak, if it's readily available, and you can afford it. Otherwise, add a pusher fan, convert to 134a per post #14, and be done with it.