BOV needed?????
I'm a fan of having turbos that last a long time, so I run a bov. Jack hammering a S5 turbo with compressor surge can't be good for it.
I understand what you guys are saying for not using one but what technologies make surge ok in the design of a turbo? Ball Bearing? Certain shaft thickness to take the abuse?
I understand what you guys are saying for not using one but what technologies make surge ok in the design of a turbo? Ball Bearing? Certain shaft thickness to take the abuse?
Here is some interesting information I found on performanceforums.com
It makes perfect sense when you think about it as an emission device. Just some more food for thought.
in Part 2 of our interview, we speak to a leading industry expert Simon Gishus about Nissan engines, Holden Gen 3 V8s, and directions for modifications...
What are some areas where people often make errors modifying their turbo car?
"The classic blow-off valve.
"The blow-off valve is designed as an emissions control device for OE manufacturers. It came about when smaller engines made more and more power using larger turbochargers and bigger intercoolers. As you close the throttle, the build up of pressure and the larger volume inside the intake has to go somewhere; it can't go into the engine because the throttle is shut. Instead, it has to do a U-turn and it comes screaming out the airflow meter. That creates the 'gobble-goggle' sound.
"The gobble-gobble sound is something the public has grown to love.
"The airflow meter is not all that smart and does not realise the air is going in the wrong direction; it therefore measures the air twice (once going into the engine and again going out in the wrong direction). The computer now tips in twice as much fuel as what's required, making it run rich - making it not pass emissions.
"Therefore, manufacturers fit a blow-off valve - or a recirculation valve as they are actually called. A recirculation valve opens when it senses manifold vacuum, returning the air trapped at the throttle body to between the airflow meter and the turbocharger. As such, the airflow meter does not take a double reading - the car now passes emissions.
"Unfortunately, we've had people ringing up and wanting the "audible gear change alarm".
""What audible gear change alarm?" we ask. "You know, when the Sierras were running around and just when they went to change gear it used to go whoda-whoda-whoda" they tell us.
""No pal, that is the dump valve..."
"Some people do think that at the absolute upper extremes of boost levels - about 30-plus pounds - the blow-off valve does, somewhat, save the compressor wheel and shaft from trying to rotate backwards. It doesn't actually rotate backwards at all - all you're hearing is cavitation. What happens is, you've shut the throttle, the turbocharger is doing 100,000 rpm and now has a boost spike of 50 psi. Because it's working in a higher region than what it's designed for, it slips; it basically does a skid like a car tyre does when you dump the clutch. That's the noise you hear - the whoof-whoof-whoof is the air doing a skid."
Is there any performance gain to a blow-off valve?
"We've tested one on a manual gearbox performance car run at Winton Raceway. I think it was running 1 minute 40s back then, but it would lose 2 seconds a lap putting the gobble-gobble valve on. When you look at data acquisition, what you find is - as you change gear - the blow-off valve dumps all the pressure built up through the intercooler and pipes. It then goes back to zero manifold vacuum when you get back on the throttle, you have to build all that boost back up.
"The fact that people think that they keep the turbo spinning is a problem. The people that suggest this have never had an engine on the dyno and never had a turbo tacho in their hands. What people don't realise is, when you shut off the throttle, you shut off the air supply to the engine - this shuts off the exhaust gasses coming out of the engine. When there is no exhaust flow, there is no energy to keep the turbine spinning - the turbo slows down at an alarming rate.
"If you change gears at quite a good speed, you can actually get a boost spike on changes; if you're trying to hold a constant 30 pounds, when you do a racing change you'll get 32-33 pounds when you crack the throttle open again. If everything's working well, you've got a full head of stream waiting to go into the throttle as soon as it's opened.
"I've done this on a rally car and it was quicker through every timed section without a dump valve. You'll never hear a World Rally Car going pssshhht because they don't use a dump valve - you get the woof-woof-woof noise instead."
What are some areas where people often make errors modifying their turbo car?
"The classic blow-off valve.
"The blow-off valve is designed as an emissions control device for OE manufacturers. It came about when smaller engines made more and more power using larger turbochargers and bigger intercoolers. As you close the throttle, the build up of pressure and the larger volume inside the intake has to go somewhere; it can't go into the engine because the throttle is shut. Instead, it has to do a U-turn and it comes screaming out the airflow meter. That creates the 'gobble-goggle' sound.
"The gobble-gobble sound is something the public has grown to love.
"The airflow meter is not all that smart and does not realise the air is going in the wrong direction; it therefore measures the air twice (once going into the engine and again going out in the wrong direction). The computer now tips in twice as much fuel as what's required, making it run rich - making it not pass emissions.
"Therefore, manufacturers fit a blow-off valve - or a recirculation valve as they are actually called. A recirculation valve opens when it senses manifold vacuum, returning the air trapped at the throttle body to between the airflow meter and the turbocharger. As such, the airflow meter does not take a double reading - the car now passes emissions.
"Unfortunately, we've had people ringing up and wanting the "audible gear change alarm".
""What audible gear change alarm?" we ask. "You know, when the Sierras were running around and just when they went to change gear it used to go whoda-whoda-whoda" they tell us.
""No pal, that is the dump valve..."
"Some people do think that at the absolute upper extremes of boost levels - about 30-plus pounds - the blow-off valve does, somewhat, save the compressor wheel and shaft from trying to rotate backwards. It doesn't actually rotate backwards at all - all you're hearing is cavitation. What happens is, you've shut the throttle, the turbocharger is doing 100,000 rpm and now has a boost spike of 50 psi. Because it's working in a higher region than what it's designed for, it slips; it basically does a skid like a car tyre does when you dump the clutch. That's the noise you hear - the whoof-whoof-whoof is the air doing a skid."
Is there any performance gain to a blow-off valve?
"We've tested one on a manual gearbox performance car run at Winton Raceway. I think it was running 1 minute 40s back then, but it would lose 2 seconds a lap putting the gobble-gobble valve on. When you look at data acquisition, what you find is - as you change gear - the blow-off valve dumps all the pressure built up through the intercooler and pipes. It then goes back to zero manifold vacuum when you get back on the throttle, you have to build all that boost back up.
"The fact that people think that they keep the turbo spinning is a problem. The people that suggest this have never had an engine on the dyno and never had a turbo tacho in their hands. What people don't realise is, when you shut off the throttle, you shut off the air supply to the engine - this shuts off the exhaust gasses coming out of the engine. When there is no exhaust flow, there is no energy to keep the turbine spinning - the turbo slows down at an alarming rate.
"If you change gears at quite a good speed, you can actually get a boost spike on changes; if you're trying to hold a constant 30 pounds, when you do a racing change you'll get 32-33 pounds when you crack the throttle open again. If everything's working well, you've got a full head of stream waiting to go into the throttle as soon as it's opened.
"I've done this on a rally car and it was quicker through every timed section without a dump valve. You'll never hear a World Rally Car going pssshhht because they don't use a dump valve - you get the woof-woof-woof noise instead."
I am not knowledgeable enough to really comment on the lower psi and other contributing factors of a stock rx7 turbo, but I would imagine most the same principles apply.
There is definitely a reason whey they come on turbo street cars. If you are pushing 20 lbs boost and the throttle snaps shut that pressure can double (if not more) between the throttle body and turbo instantly, and it has the capability of just snapping the shaft on the turbine in the short term and wearing your bearings susbstantially in the long term.
I would imagine that F1 and serious drag cars (a lot of drag cars don't have intercoolers also...) are not as concerned about durability because of their budgets and relatively limited miles driven on it, and possibly because they are always under throttle unlike a street car.
There is definitely a reason whey they come on turbo street cars. If you are pushing 20 lbs boost and the throttle snaps shut that pressure can double (if not more) between the throttle body and turbo instantly, and it has the capability of just snapping the shaft on the turbine in the short term and wearing your bearings susbstantially in the long term.
I would imagine that F1 and serious drag cars (a lot of drag cars don't have intercoolers also...) are not as concerned about durability because of their budgets and relatively limited miles driven on it, and possibly because they are always under throttle unlike a street car.
been running mine without a BOV for a while now at 15 psi on a 70 trim turbo(roughly 3 times the size of the puny stock turbos and over twice the factory horsepower), no issues. find some pics of turbo shafts snapping from compressor surge, i doubt you will find any. now if this was talk about 2 step exhaust system surging i might be inclined to agree that it will definitely reduce the life of your turbo and break things, that is a much more volatile surge process.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; Apr 13, 2011 at 11:59 PM.
Yes, I've noticed stock JDM S5's with no BPV.
And the 12AT produced 6psi, maybe not enough heat is generated from the compression of 6 lbs to require and intercooler, and a properly sized turbocharger does not require a valve.
And the 12AT produced 6psi, maybe not enough heat is generated from the compression of 6 lbs to require and intercooler, and a properly sized turbocharger does not require a valve.
I think "It is for noise reduction" attitude is patently false.
I work around turbo Diesel motors for John Deere, and certain smaller turbos will destroy themselves when the machine is running full throttle and turned off without idling down. The back pressure of the turbo spooling into a closed block will almost instantaneously result in shaft play. But I think I've gone way off tangent of the original post.
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The stock turbo is designed to work with the stock system which includes a bypass valve. For those who claim no ill affects from the absence of such a device fall into 2 categories:
1) Those running non-stock turbos
2) Liars
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it had a carb style intake with venturies and whatnot. most carbureted cars didnt have an intercooler. read up on the reasoning behind this. basically like a blowthrough setup.
so the engineers are wrong?
have you tested your theory with hundreds of engines with different turbochargers like ...oh i dont know, an auto manufacturer? or are you speaking from a one time experience? or just hearsay? where did you read this if you read it?
so the engineers are wrong?
have you tested your theory with hundreds of engines with different turbochargers like ...oh i dont know, an auto manufacturer? or are you speaking from a one time experience? or just hearsay? where did you read this if you read it?
And I have a blow turbo from a 50 HP 1.5L 3 cylinder diesel Yanmar 3TNV84T in my office that it's bearing failure (age also must be considered) was a direct result of back pressure. These smaller turbo's I deal with I'm sure are not made anywhere near the quality of upper end automotive turbos, but It still proves in my mind that the chance of this kind of damage is application/equipment dependent.
