no_luck

iTrader: (3)

ok so ive narrowed down my choices of apex seals.
down to goopie and als

which of the two would you guys recommend?
this is my first motor ive built for rx7 so some of me isnt expecting it to last longer then the break in period. but the rest of me is thinking well **** if it doesnt blow it up will i like the seals?

thanks for the help

oh btw im going to be running a haltech e6x with 850 primaries and 1680 secoundairies
and maybe water meth injection but i havent decided on that.

Syritis

iTrader: (2)

remember to clean out your oil cooler.

no_luck

iTrader: (3)

I'm doing new dual oil coolers.

nycgps

iTrader: (4)

why not Mazda's seal ? its pretty reliable imo. and not expensive.

jjwalker

This argument comes up a lot, but i'll chime in...

Mazda pioneered and spent millions, if not more developing street worthy and reliable apex seals over 30yrs. I do not understand why people do not just use mazda seals? It has been proven that they are the best overall compromise between seal wear and also not tearing housings up.

I'd dig up links, but I just woke up and need more coffee. If requested I will later.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

mazda also used the cheapest materials that they could possibly get by on and stuck with the technology that was developed many years ago and made small changes to their processes. millions is an overstatement because the big chunk of their R+D on seals was spent nearly 45+ years ago and only smaller bits on refinement after that. it took them longer to determine that 2 piece seals were better than 3 piece seals than the aftermarket sources did.

obviously there is still better seals out there. if you want to talk compromise then ceramics are by and far so much superior to the stock mazda seals that it isn't even a fair comparison. ceramics take detonation with stride and the seal and housing wear is virtually nonexistent, i have torn apart endurance racing engines that have been in the upper RPM range for countless hours and the rotor housings still appeared virtually new as well as the seals, the compromise is that when ceramics do break, they take EVERYTHING with them, but you almost have to be trying to break them. with stock seals you can at least flip a coin and have a 50% chance that they did minimal damage, when ceramics fail it is a guarantee that almost half your motor is garbage. but can you imagine a stock motor going a million miles? ceramics could make that possible, except the bearings would be well worn at the 500k mark. and obviously the coolant seals probably toasting out every 200k miles, but it's easy to replace soft seals to keep your motor going indefinitely on all the original hard parts.

so the argument that OEM seals have more R+D is bogus, because aftermarket suppliers have taken the stock seal technology and evolved them to a new level.

jjwalker

I was leaving ceramics out, because they are in a TOTALLY different ball park. Hell, they don't play ball, they just win.

Jimmy2222

iTrader: (3)

What are your goals, if you're DD'ing your car/mildly upgrading it, most people will say OEM seals are best for those goals.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

with seals they're all apples and oranges, everyone has their own preference. some people say atkins are garbage but i haven't had any issues with them aside from the typical chipping upder detonation with no damage to the rotors or housings.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

Give us more details on the setup and what you are using the car for.

no_luck

iTrader: (3)

the car is going to be a "when i feel like driving it" car that would be raced on weekends and so on and so fourth..
i havent really set any goals as far as hp because i dont want to be dissappointed. since this is the first 13 b ive built.. and ported. im weary on going all OUT because im worried that it wont last.

i dont want to spend a gran on seals.. as im under the impression that mazda seals are more expensive and they dont handle detonation well. i will be also attempting on tuning the car myself on my haltech e6x till i give up and just get ti tuned my self. from research ive seen that both these seals handle.."mistakes" well .. all that being said im pretty much bent on getting one of the two seals in the OP.. als unbreakable seals ($450) or the goopy performance seals ($295). i just see more people talk about als then goopy and all the post i find are old i want to kno opinions now .. goopy 2011!
thanks
rob

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

ALS are likely an early version of the Goopy seals

I have Goopy seals in two motors, both running well.

You can try and contact Judge Ito on the baord for more info on the Goopy seals since he likely has more experience with them than the rest of us.

I like Mazda OE seals for NA cars, but do not trust end users snough to use them in turbo cars.

If this is an NA occassional use car I would go Goopy or Carbon seals

jjwalker

Carbon seals!

Yeah if he wants to rebuild his motor every 15k miles!

By the way, ceramics aren't bullet proof.

Don Marvel here in Dallas (Dallas RX7 folks should know him) built my brothers FD drag car engine with ceramics. He popped it at 45 psi boost on the strip at Ennis. This was like 8 years ago.

no_luck

iTrader: (3)

i forgot to mention that im going boosted...
i would love to get in contact with judge ito but he is a busy man..
i think im going to wind up going iwht the goopy seals since there cheaper.. and the guy i spoke with wasnt a idiot. and i dont have to wait 15 days for a shippment to come in ..

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

If boosted definitely the Goopy's. Also get his O-ring kit, the teflon encapsulated silicon- really happy with them.

Carbon work great for occasional use cars! Especially guys who drive them only on sunny weekends or that sort of thing, hard to do 15K miles even in 4-5 years, and a rebuild at that point consists of swapping out seals, maybe an o-ring kit, put it back together. Boosted is another thing entirely.

SpeedOfLife

iTrader: (16)

Well nothing's indestructible, 45psi is nucking futs. Few people will be pushing that much intake pressure.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

don't think anyone said they were. but they are more knock resistant than the OEM seals are and have far superior wear suppressant since they are light and absorb astronomical amounts of heat.

the pettit race car build i tore down with ceramic seal failure tore up the rotor, housing, center and rear irons. the front rotor and housing looked like they came right from the factory with literally no rotor, seal or rotor housing wear.

you can get them direct from mcmaster carr but those teflon encapsulated seals are garbage, the teflon skirts tend to fail in daily driven street cars in as few as a a couple of years of daily driving heat cycling. sure they're reusable, if you don't mind your engine drinking a little water..

rotary aviation, goopy, mcmaster carr, whoever is selling them now i won't touch em even if it was a make or break deal to sell an engine rebuild because they're a liability in waiting as well as reputation. they do take heat abuse well but they have inferior sealing properties. they're also a pita to work with in cold climates.

rotaryB-2000

This is easy!!!

450.00 vs 295.00

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

Karack I think we are talking about two different o-ring types. I have seen the telon "lined" seals and had pretty much thought it would basically fall off at some point, in fact the last RA seale dmotor I took apart had the "teflon" completely seperated from the o-ring.
My experience with the O-rings I got from Goopy so far is they will take a fair amount of heat and not fail.

K-Tune

iTrader: (26)

I don't see any reason to stray away from stock apex seals for this application.

nycgps

iTrader: (4)

for your application I think Mazda seals are "good enough"

they are not the best, but they can take quite a lot of abuse.

no seals can stand denotation/ping forever.

I ordered some NRS Ceramics and its coming to me soon simply because I want best sealing and something that would last MUCH longer and don't mind to pay the extra. (gonna use it with new housing and lots of new parts, might as well)

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

Because when that OEM seal chips that little corner out of it and takes out the turbo, it sucks.