Any Build Threads with a happy rotary ending?!
08-10-13, 09:06 PM
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Any Build Threads with a happy rotary ending?!
Hi all,
been reading a lot of build threads lately looking for motivation to get mine going, i have a 10th AE with a completely built studded FD rotating assembly lightened rotors, upgraded stationary gears FD... among other upgrades motor built by adam at rx7 specialties, have ps1000 undivided turbo manifold, vmount, and a bunch of other goodies to come, going to be going for 350-400rwhp however im concerned because every build thread ends with bad news or a v8 swap or even a divorce, even aaron cakes build eventually cracked housing as well... anyways tell me about builds that are still going/ actually finished!
been reading a lot of build threads lately looking for motivation to get mine going, i have a 10th AE with a completely built studded FD rotating assembly lightened rotors, upgraded stationary gears FD... among other upgrades motor built by adam at rx7 specialties, have ps1000 undivided turbo manifold, vmount, and a bunch of other goodies to come, going to be going for 350-400rwhp however im concerned because every build thread ends with bad news or a v8 swap or even a divorce, even aaron cakes build eventually cracked housing as well... anyways tell me about builds that are still going/ actually finished!
08-10-13, 10:04 PM
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I don't have a build thread but I rebuilt my engine 6 years ago and its still going strong through plenty of miles and mods... just be smart and take care of the thing
08-11-13, 11:58 AM
#4
The best way to not screw up a build thread is to not underestimate the cost of what you are doing. Custom builds will have custom problems that will take expensive custom solutions. Not to mention that its the small things that add up quickly.
My last build is still going strong, but, its an N/A build. It does go down from time to time because other things around the motor seem to go bad though...
My last build is still going strong, but, its an N/A build. It does go down from time to time because other things around the motor seem to go bad though...
08-11-13, 12:05 PM
#5
Shoe string budget is what cost me my last motor. Its tough to cut corners with these cars. Its better to take your time and wait for good deals to pop up. Take your time, do things right, learn what everything is doing and why. If the rotary was THAT unreliable I don't think anyone would want to use it.
08-11-13, 09:04 PM
#6
every engine has weaknesses, there is no such thing as a bullet proof rotary. i admitted that to myself many years ago.
you can build one to handle a bit more than a stock block can but if you plan on expecting it to live a long and happy life you probably will be let down.
the most i have pulled off with these engines is about 50k miles at 450whp, which is actually fairly exceptional if you think about it for a bit. AND the engine failed due to a clogged injector running one rotor lean, the good rotor and housing had very marginal wear and could have survived 3 times as long if all conditions actually serving the engine were ideal.
you can build one to handle a bit more than a stock block can but if you plan on expecting it to live a long and happy life you probably will be let down.
the most i have pulled off with these engines is about 50k miles at 450whp, which is actually fairly exceptional if you think about it for a bit. AND the engine failed due to a clogged injector running one rotor lean, the good rotor and housing had very marginal wear and could have survived 3 times as long if all conditions actually serving the engine were ideal.
08-12-13, 03:25 AM
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Good to know, its impressive to see so many continue to go this route with the advantages of the ls swap, What would you say the average life span of a modified turbo rotary around 400whp be? i suppose there are many variables with these engines being so fussy but overall i wont be racing often occasional auto cross and drag...
This is the route im going, ive decided to take the plunge but like many others, will go with ls swap if anything catastrophic happens
Current mods to my long block
Studded
3mm ceramic apex seals
new S5 rotor housings
new center and rear intermediate housings
FD Eshaft, Stationary gears, rotors (lightened FD rotors), flywheel all balanced
new waterpump new oil pump
running premix
ill be using 4X 1000 cc ID injectors, a 340lph pump, 5 micron filter, new lines and tank
new wiring harness, new sensors 2X EGT, 1 IAT, 1 watertemp, 1 narrowband, 1 wideband, new oil pressure, oil temp, hall affect, fuel pressure, any ideas on running a knock sensor? , probably going to run race display i hate having gauges everywhere also one connection to ps1000 for all info needed is pretty appealing... ill be running a borg warner 363 90degree undivided turbo new neukin vmount and exhaust manifold, snow performance water meth inj.
Its good to see the potential of the rotary lasting long periods of time, what mods where done to the engine that lasted 50k? and where the injectors ever cleaned during that 50k miles?
This is the route im going, ive decided to take the plunge but like many others, will go with ls swap if anything catastrophic happens
Current mods to my long block
Studded
3mm ceramic apex seals
new S5 rotor housings
new center and rear intermediate housings
FD Eshaft, Stationary gears, rotors (lightened FD rotors), flywheel all balanced
new waterpump new oil pump
running premix
ill be using 4X 1000 cc ID injectors, a 340lph pump, 5 micron filter, new lines and tank
new wiring harness, new sensors 2X EGT, 1 IAT, 1 watertemp, 1 narrowband, 1 wideband, new oil pressure, oil temp, hall affect, fuel pressure, any ideas on running a knock sensor? , probably going to run race display i hate having gauges everywhere also one connection to ps1000 for all info needed is pretty appealing... ill be running a borg warner 363 90degree undivided turbo new neukin vmount and exhaust manifold, snow performance water meth inj.
Its good to see the potential of the rotary lasting long periods of time, what mods where done to the engine that lasted 50k? and where the injectors ever cleaned during that 50k miles?
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08-12-13, 09:13 AM
#8
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Hi all,
been reading a lot of build threads lately looking for motivation to get mine going, i have a 10th AE with a completely built studded FD rotating assembly lightened rotors, upgraded stationary gears FD... among other upgrades motor built by adam at rx7 specialties, have ps1000 undivided turbo manifold, vmount, and a bunch of other goodies to come, going to be going for 350-400rwhp however im concerned because every build thread ends with bad news or a v8 swap or even a divorce, even aaron cakes build eventually cracked housing as well... anyways tell me about builds that are still going/ actually finished!
been reading a lot of build threads lately looking for motivation to get mine going, i have a 10th AE with a completely built studded FD rotating assembly lightened rotors, upgraded stationary gears FD... among other upgrades motor built by adam at rx7 specialties, have ps1000 undivided turbo manifold, vmount, and a bunch of other goodies to come, going to be going for 350-400rwhp however im concerned because every build thread ends with bad news or a v8 swap or even a divorce, even aaron cakes build eventually cracked housing as well... anyways tell me about builds that are still going/ actually finished!
I have absolutely, never, ever, not on Project Tina or any other rotary, cracked housings. I have no idea where you got that information from but until last spring, Project Tina has been dead reliable and trouble free except for breaking transmissions (and a differential).
Last spring I had a secondary injector connector come loose at the track resulting in blowing the corner off a front rotor apex seal. Within 1 week I had the engine apart, cleaned, repainted and back together and on the road. Nothing needed replacing except for the seal but I took the opportunity to replace all internal seals, re-clearance side seals, replace my out of spec rotors, etc. Engine made 2" more vacuum when put back together. I had intended to make a thread about it but with working on the Cosmo, it fell to the wayside.
It is important to remember when looking at people's projects that this is not TV. In the real world, it takes a long time to build up a car when you can't devote 12 hours a day. Most of us are working on our stuff evenings and weekends. And, let's be honest here, most people outsource their fabrication and tuning so they ultimately rely on the skill of a third party to complete the project. Further, for most people their build is their learning experience. Mistakes are often costly and time consuming especially in an engine where damage is often catastrophic if something goes wrong (we can't just pull a head to replace a head gasket or a burned set of valves).
Last edited by Aaron Cake; 08-12-13 at 09:18 AM.
08-12-13, 12:42 PM
#9
almost all failures i have come across were not directly related to a build issue, the engine or anything inside of the engine. the issues with any turbocharged engine are peripherals, such as fuel pump losing voltage or volume, injectors dirtying up over time, injector wiring issues, ground issues, charging system issues, tune issues, etc, etc, etc.
i also would not have recommended ceramic seals for a turbo engine, softer seals are more forgiving and ceramics are even the best quality ceramics are still slightly more brittle than OEM seals. ceramic seals are the best for endurance naturally aspirated engines or turbo engines which have well gone through setup for reliability and backup systems.
i also would not have recommended ceramic seals for a turbo engine, softer seals are more forgiving and ceramics are even the best quality ceramics are still slightly more brittle than OEM seals. ceramic seals are the best for endurance naturally aspirated engines or turbo engines which have well gone through setup for reliability and backup systems.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 08-12-13 at 12:44 PM.
08-12-13, 08:26 PM
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Hi all,
Good to know about ceramic, wish i listened to my builder i believe he recommended the super Ra seals? either way i had bought these seals from NRS he recommended them obviously and him being in edmonton when he had his sale on i couldnt pass it up, anyways in regards to Aaron my apologies for the mixed information, i have read your Tina build twice and watch your Cosmo updates i may have mixed something up, i just recalled you mentioning something happening, perhaps it had to do with removal of the rear coolant port delete on someone else's build or poor tuning can't recall feel free to correct me, again my apologies. I completely agree with this is not tv an ls swap on a rx7 takes a little over an episode to complete lol (horsepower tv aired this swap on tv) also i have seen a lot of people cut corners and get bit, i guess it will always be a debate but i do know that in total i will have approx 10000$ into the engine alone and on ebay i found an ls7 18k miles pullout for 8000$ which is a 505 horsepower 7.0l... pretty tempting however i do love that the rotary is different and i love getting razzed by all my fellow heavy duty mechanic co-workers about not doing the ls swap
Good to know about ceramic, wish i listened to my builder i believe he recommended the super Ra seals? either way i had bought these seals from NRS he recommended them obviously and him being in edmonton when he had his sale on i couldnt pass it up, anyways in regards to Aaron my apologies for the mixed information, i have read your Tina build twice and watch your Cosmo updates i may have mixed something up, i just recalled you mentioning something happening, perhaps it had to do with removal of the rear coolant port delete on someone else's build or poor tuning can't recall feel free to correct me, again my apologies. I completely agree with this is not tv an ls swap on a rx7 takes a little over an episode to complete lol (horsepower tv aired this swap on tv) also i have seen a lot of people cut corners and get bit, i guess it will always be a debate but i do know that in total i will have approx 10000$ into the engine alone and on ebay i found an ls7 18k miles pullout for 8000$ which is a 505 horsepower 7.0l... pretty tempting however i do love that the rotary is different and i love getting razzed by all my fellow heavy duty mechanic co-workers about not doing the ls swap
08-13-13, 09:12 AM
#11
even a V8 will eventually break, while it takes less stress churning power at lower revs there is a lot more moving parts which inevitably wear and fail versus inside the rotary engine.
yes, the V8 is more idiot proof but it is not the end all swap. you still have to have a wallet to support it where with the rotary engine you must have brains to support them as well as the wallet.
there is still development being made on these engines but we're nearing the end of our ability to come up with ideas to add durability to them for the weekend tinkerer. but back 10 years ago i never saw stud kits, non OEM coolant seals that weren't junk, a dozen apex seal suppliers with all varying types of applications, self tuning ECUs, alternative high octane fuels at the pump, spark plugs in a dozen styles and heat ranges, etc, etc, etc. but there were still people doing close to the same as we are today without all the added buffers.
just be glad these are not 13B-MSP engines, it seems the tradition is to always build something into the engine that runs it into the ground. every series has flaws and i honestly wouldn't blame mazda if they just gave up on the rotary engine altogether. it definitely has a lot of things holding it back which are nearly impossible to overcome, even if that thing is treehugging emissions requirements that are unrealistic while some corporations go unchecked spewing a million times more crap into the atmosphere.
yes, the V8 is more idiot proof but it is not the end all swap. you still have to have a wallet to support it where with the rotary engine you must have brains to support them as well as the wallet.
there is still development being made on these engines but we're nearing the end of our ability to come up with ideas to add durability to them for the weekend tinkerer. but back 10 years ago i never saw stud kits, non OEM coolant seals that weren't junk, a dozen apex seal suppliers with all varying types of applications, self tuning ECUs, alternative high octane fuels at the pump, spark plugs in a dozen styles and heat ranges, etc, etc, etc. but there were still people doing close to the same as we are today without all the added buffers.
just be glad these are not 13B-MSP engines, it seems the tradition is to always build something into the engine that runs it into the ground. every series has flaws and i honestly wouldn't blame mazda if they just gave up on the rotary engine altogether. it definitely has a lot of things holding it back which are nearly impossible to overcome, even if that thing is treehugging emissions requirements that are unrealistic while some corporations go unchecked spewing a million times more crap into the atmosphere.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 08-13-13 at 09:25 AM.
08-13-13, 02:11 PM
#12
almost all failures i have come across were not directly related to a build issue, the engine or anything inside of the engine. the issues with any turbocharged engine are peripherals, such as fuel pump losing voltage or volume, injectors dirtying up over time, injector wiring issues, ground issues, charging system issues, tune issues, etc, etc, etc.
i also would not have recommended ceramic seals for a turbo engine, softer seals are more forgiving and ceramics are even the best quality ceramics are still slightly more brittle than OEM seals. ceramic seals are the best for endurance naturally aspirated engines or turbo engines which have well gone through setup for reliability and backup systems.
i also would not have recommended ceramic seals for a turbo engine, softer seals are more forgiving and ceramics are even the best quality ceramics are still slightly more brittle than OEM seals. ceramic seals are the best for endurance naturally aspirated engines or turbo engines which have well gone through setup for reliability and backup systems.
I won't even waste my time with any oem engine related wiring. All is getting redone before my engine will power my car. So frustrating when you spent a ton of my on an engine and it decides when it want's to run normal or pig rich sometimes to the point where it just floods itself out. FC wiring is garbage. The engine harness was not made to last forever. After 25 years, you are lucky if it still has the rubber insulation everywhere and clips that are not crumbling apart like a cracker.I'm determined that a turbo rotary engine can last 250,000 miles like a 12a. I think it depends on your budget, how well you take care of it, and how much you push it. I'll probably try that ceramic/dry film coatings on my next build.
08-13-13, 08:59 PM
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I agree, i am actually making a wiring schematic to rewire the entire car, I am going to use a IQ3 dash, and I am debating on buying Race tech's new Smartwire module looks amazing but for 1700$ i am not sure if its worth it but it would add another degree of protection, being a HD mechanic i have deutch crimpers and tons of extra connectors including 2 24pin mountable ones that im going to mount it to the connectors to the firewall for the engine and chassis harness
08-13-13, 09:45 PM
#14
the wiring also isn't as bad as it seems.
problems almost always arise when i find some other chucklehead has been under the intake manifold and not reassembled things properly or lacked any form of care about taking things apart.
when i simply rewrap a harness that isn't completely beat up by someone else i feel totally confident in it. it's only been a rare occasion that issues have come from inside an engine harness, the rest were all user error.
problems almost always arise when i find some other chucklehead has been under the intake manifold and not reassembled things properly or lacked any form of care about taking things apart.
when i simply rewrap a harness that isn't completely beat up by someone else i feel totally confident in it. it's only been a rare occasion that issues have come from inside an engine harness, the rest were all user error.
08-13-13, 09:54 PM
#15
the wiring also isn't as bad as it seems.
problems almost always arise when i find some other chucklehead has been under the intake manifold and not reassembled things properly or lacked any form of care about taking things apart.
when i simply rewrap a harness that isn't completely beat up by someone else i feel totally confident in it. it's only been a rare occasion that issues have come from inside an engine harness, the rest were all user error.
problems almost always arise when i find some other chucklehead has been under the intake manifold and not reassembled things properly or lacked any form of care about taking things apart.
when i simply rewrap a harness that isn't completely beat up by someone else i feel totally confident in it. it's only been a rare occasion that issues have come from inside an engine harness, the rest were all user error.
08-14-13, 01:51 PM
#17
I'm guilty of breaking one of my injector clips, and this was after replacing them. (After putting them on i had them in the wrong place and had to switch them again).
I plan to replace it again at some point , the clips on the primaries are not easy to get off with the rail attached to the block. I want to say its ideal to remove the primary rail before attempting to.remove the clip.
Lesson learned.
The clip is still on there really tight so it should be fine , but I will replace it just for peace of mind. Or am I worrying too much?
Rotary > Pistons
I plan to replace it again at some point , the clips on the primaries are not easy to get off with the rail attached to the block. I want to say its ideal to remove the primary rail before attempting to.remove the clip.
Lesson learned.
The clip is still on there really tight so it should be fine , but I will replace it just for peace of mind. Or am I worrying too much?
Rotary > Pistons
08-14-13, 04:24 PM
#18
the wiring also isn't as bad as it seems.
problems almost always arise when i find some other chucklehead has been under the intake manifold and not reassembled things properly or lacked any form of care about taking things apart.
when i simply rewrap a harness that isn't completely beat up by someone else i feel totally confident in it. it's only been a rare occasion that issues have come from inside an engine harness, the rest were all user error.
problems almost always arise when i find some other chucklehead has been under the intake manifold and not reassembled things properly or lacked any form of care about taking things apart.
when i simply rewrap a harness that isn't completely beat up by someone else i feel totally confident in it. it's only been a rare occasion that issues have come from inside an engine harness, the rest were all user error.
aaaaamen....
I am doing more of that lately than anything else. Cleaning up somone elses 4 stage hack job wiring where they didnt wrap it properly, ignored broken clips, ignored BARE wires, did not bolt grounds back down, did not secure wires. etc....
The wiring harnesses in these cars do get old and brittle (especially FDs) but honestly i have seen even terribly overheated examples and burned up wiring perform without a hitch and then someones ignorant mod job x 3 attempts makes the car run terribly or not run at all... the number one bane of these cars has been thier "owners" from the factory they were about 99% engineering successes, that last 1% being mandated emissions equipment causing problems...
my favorite is the...
"Why does my car keep blowing this 15amp fuse!?! I guess ill just put a 30 amp in there...problem solved!"
08-15-13, 09:47 AM
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I wrote a long post with some comments and suggestions for your build, only to have my browser crash when I hit the post button. No matter, I'll just paste the reply back as I always copy a post before I make it. Oh, IE10 crashing cleared the clip board?! Seriously?
Frankly the problem is less my browser more this forum. Anyone notice I've been here less? That's because half the time I can't stand this forum now that the pages take a minute to render, cause massive amounts of HD activity, chew up 500K of bandwidth per page, have annoying mouse over Flash ads that blare in my speakers, and are unusable on all my computers except my damn quad core Xeon workstation! The computer I use most, a TC4200 tablet is a Pentium M machine. Yeah, it's old, but it's reliable and does everything I need to do. Except handle this forum. 100% CPU usage, HD light on solid and battery draining in half the time when I am using this forum. There is zero excuse for this.
Anyway, I'll reply again but in shorter form.
That's not necessarily the best recommendation. Those seals are well known to be brutal on rotor housings.
I apologize as well. As soon as I noticed you were a Calgarian my defenses went up due to past experiences I've had with some Calgarians on this forum. For some reason they enjoy taking opportunities to attack me, and then like ants, when one starts in on a thread, they all follow and support one another in a big circle-jerk like motion. I do not mean to imply you are one of those people, but I have no reason to believe they don't do the same thing offline and spread weird rumors about me, all the while patting themselves on the back.
That is an extraordinary amount to spend on a 400HP 13B! Though going back on your list of mods, I can see how it happened. New rotor housings are understandable but new irons are a bit extreme. Irons are almost never bad. 75% of the time they can just be put back in the engine. If you want to make them near perfect, they can be lapped. It's almost unheard of to buy new.
Lightening the rotors isn't going to do a whole lot unless you plan on sustained high RPM operation. Though obviously they will be better all around, it's a cost v. benefit consideration.
New oil pump isn't really necessary. They almost never fail or wear.
Why both a narrowband and wideband? With the wideband, the narrowband has nothing of value to contribute.
There is great debate about 3MM seals but I've never seen evidence they are must stronger than 2MM. But there are certain engine builders and shops who love to sell them because they can then charge you for milling out the rotors to accept them.
Why an undivided turbo!? Unless you are running a very small turbine (not suitable for 400HP) then boost response will suffer greatly compared to the only slightly more expensive divided turbo.
People are going to crucify me for this statement but I have to say it: building a high HP rotary is far less about the engine than it is about everything bolted to it. An amazingly poorly built engine with worn out parts, wide open clearances and gnawed by beavers porting can and does make reliable high power. Of course, with a properly wired and TUNED standalone, clean quality injectors, quality fuel pump, properly sized intercooler and all supporting systems where attention to detail has been paid. Things like new wiring connectors, dielectric grease on all connections, working alternator, big beefy grounds and battery cables, new TPS etc. Fuel hoses that aren't pinched, no stock FPR or filters, etc. All the stock parts are very old and relying on them is asking for trouble.
Frankly the problem is less my browser more this forum. Anyone notice I've been here less? That's because half the time I can't stand this forum now that the pages take a minute to render, cause massive amounts of HD activity, chew up 500K of bandwidth per page, have annoying mouse over Flash ads that blare in my speakers, and are unusable on all my computers except my damn quad core Xeon workstation! The computer I use most, a TC4200 tablet is a Pentium M machine. Yeah, it's old, but it's reliable and does everything I need to do. Except handle this forum. 100% CPU usage, HD light on solid and battery draining in half the time when I am using this forum. There is zero excuse for this.
Anyway, I'll reply again but in shorter form.
anyways in regards to Aaron my apologies for the mixed information, i have read your Tina build twice and watch your Cosmo updates i may have mixed something up, i just recalled you mentioning something happening,
tv) also i have seen a lot of people cut corners and get bit, i guess it will always be a debate but i do know that in total i will have approx 10000$ into the engine alone and on ebay i found an ls7 18k miles pullout for 8000$ which is a 505 horsepower 7.0l... pretty tempting however i do love that the rotary is different and i love getting razzed by all my fellow heavy duty mechanic co-workers about not doing the ls swap
Lightening the rotors isn't going to do a whole lot unless you plan on sustained high RPM operation. Though obviously they will be better all around, it's a cost v. benefit consideration.
New oil pump isn't really necessary. They almost never fail or wear.
Why both a narrowband and wideband? With the wideband, the narrowband has nothing of value to contribute.
There is great debate about 3MM seals but I've never seen evidence they are must stronger than 2MM. But there are certain engine builders and shops who love to sell them because they can then charge you for milling out the rotors to accept them.
Why an undivided turbo!? Unless you are running a very small turbine (not suitable for 400HP) then boost response will suffer greatly compared to the only slightly more expensive divided turbo.
People are going to crucify me for this statement but I have to say it: building a high HP rotary is far less about the engine than it is about everything bolted to it. An amazingly poorly built engine with worn out parts, wide open clearances and gnawed by beavers porting can and does make reliable high power. Of course, with a properly wired and TUNED standalone, clean quality injectors, quality fuel pump, properly sized intercooler and all supporting systems where attention to detail has been paid. Things like new wiring connectors, dielectric grease on all connections, working alternator, big beefy grounds and battery cables, new TPS etc. Fuel hoses that aren't pinched, no stock FPR or filters, etc. All the stock parts are very old and relying on them is asking for trouble.
08-15-13, 11:02 AM
#23
shorter response is to take your time, do things right. Dont expect 20 year old stuff to not break or fail.
Dont buy used parts that have already been in service for years and years and expect them to also last forever.
And if you dont tune that car properly it can literally go boom in a single drive with your foot on the floor
Dont buy used parts that have already been in service for years and years and expect them to also last forever.
And if you dont tune that car properly it can literally go boom in a single drive with your foot on the floor
08-15-13, 01:48 PM
#24
People are going to crucify me for this statement but I have to say it: building a high HP rotary is far less about the engine than it is about everything bolted to it. An amazingly poorly built engine with worn out parts, wide open clearances and gnawed by beavers porting can and does make reliable high power. Of course, with a properly wired and TUNED standalone, clean quality injectors, quality fuel pump, properly sized intercooler and all supporting systems where attention to detail has been paid. Things like new wiring connectors, dielectric grease on all connections, working alternator, big beefy grounds and battery cables, new TPS etc. Fuel hoses that aren't pinched, no stock FPR or filters, etc. All the stock parts are very old and relying on them is asking for trouble.
08-15-13, 03:13 PM
#25
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Frankly the problem is less my browser more this forum. Anyone notice I've been here less? That's because half the time I can't stand this forum now that the pages take a minute to render, cause massive amounts of HD activity, chew up 500K of bandwidth per page, have annoying mouse over Flash ads that blare in my speakers, and are unusable on all my computers except my damn quad core Xeon workstation! The computer I use most, a TC4200 tablet is a Pentium M machine. Yeah, it's old, but it's reliable and does everything I need to do. Except handle this forum. 100% CPU usage, HD light on solid and battery draining in half the time when I am using this forum. There is zero excuse for this.