bikeboy23332

i want the pump off.
i dont feel like taking it apart for titaniums TT mod

to by pass the need of the pump, i read that you loop the lines. is this simply just making a U from one fitting to the other?

then do i drain all the fluid? leave a little in there?

The CzAR

iTrader: (16)

Buy a manual steering rack. The ratio's are different and you'll be glad you did.

bikeboy23332

i dont want opinions or demands? just how to do it.

Thanks

specialop

use couple water hoses, maybe in a smaller size. Keep the fluid in the rack or you will burn it out. Or you can follow the Czar lead in buying a manual rack or search this forum for "depowering power steering". Either way, KEEP THE FLUID IN!

barnett87rx7

iTrader: (1)

lol looping the lines is a bad idea it will feel horrible because you will be fitting the fluid and seals

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Can you explain how one will "burn out" a fluidless rack?

Looping hoses and leaving in the fluid means that you're now pushing fluid- which used to assist the steering effort- around to no purpose whatsoever.
The effort will be higher than a real manual (or properly depowered rack).

In essence, it's a totally halfassed way of doing things.

*TOUCH*

iTrader: (29)

dont do this. if you buy heater hoses the atf in your p/s system will eventually degrade the hose (ever had an oil leak onto a heater hose before and it got all mushy?). buy oil cooler line, transmission oil cooler line or power steering line. a little more $$ but worth it

this i true but isnt it offset by the fact that the power rack is "faster" (i.e. has a lower ratio)?? or am i getting the specs confused and the manual rack is "faster"?

jjcobm

iTrader: (18)

The power rack is "faster", it is somewhere around 14-15:1 ratio. The manual rack has a 18-20:1 ration (i don't remember the exact numbers). So in theory, the closer you are to 1:1, the "faster" the rack is.

This means, it takes more rotations to turn the manual rack than it does the power rack. This also means that the power rack has more "effort" involved in turning the wheels since you are closer to a 1:1 ratio than the manual rack. You have less leverage in turning the wheels one rotation basically in the powered rack.

Add the fluid pushing through the whole system that has no pump, it will become very hard to turn if you don't properly de-power your rack. I wouldn't even think about driving a car that just has the pump belt removed without properly de-powering it.

--------------------------------

Regardless, since the OP only wants to remove the pump and not mod the rack. Yes, it is as simple as making a "U". You remove the pump and hoses. Look at the attached picture. Loop the red lines in a "U" since this allows fluid to pass from one side of the rack to the other as you turn, which will prevent the rack from hydro locking if you still have fluid in there and you turn to full lock. Where the blue arrow points you need to block those passages via welding or bolts (there will be either TWO or THREE depending on what type of rack you have).... That is looping the rack.

You will probably want to leave the fluid in there since if you remove it the gears will have no lubrication and will cause unneeded wear on your rack. The effort will be increase in steering due to fluid moving from the left passage to the right. On a properly de-powered rack all fluid is removed along with the seals and the gears are lubed with grease. You will also notice some "play" in the steering wheel due to the nature of the powered rack (fixed by welding the pinion via TitaniumTT's write-up).

*TOUCH*

iTrader: (29)

ahhh...ok, makes sense.

also, this is great info as far as "looping the lines." altho, im not personally interested in this, its relevant to his topic so i might as well ask now: what about pushin all the fluid out and plugging the rack? i have heard from some NOT to do this, others say its fine. some sayin that the steering effort is LESS than looping the lines, otherssay its MORE (i suppose this is one of the downsides to "teh interweb" [lots of ppl post wrong and/or contradictory info]). i would assume that leaving the fluid in and looping the lines would make steering harder but also provide the proper lubrication? or is there a middle ground? aka leave a little in to lube but take most of the fluid out and plug in order to reduce steering effort??....i dunno...

jjcobm

iTrader: (18)

See this:

I'd say if doing the loop method, your best bet is to leave the fluid to save your rack from wear.

lonetlan

Inside the power steering rack is a wall with holes in it. It helps push the fluid to and from the pump. draining the fluid and looping the lines will be like a manual rack, but you now have to push pressurized air without the assistance of a pump. Steering effort is more, but it is manageable. Don't misinterpret that its a de-powered rack, because it hasn't been gutted yet. Power steering racks and manual racks share the same ratio depending on the model they are compared to. Think of this, how many times do you turn your steering wheel while not in motion? Now, think of how many times you turn your wheel when in motion. Looping the lines is nothing to brag about, De-powering is a personal achievement, a manual rack is not that cool unless you need to "feel the road". Or I could be wrong. And another thing to add, if you want to make a manual, or "like manual" rack turn more freely, try searching for something about using mustang components in the steering box. I know I am!

jjcobm

iTrader: (18)

The ratios for powered racks and manual racks are completely different. That is why a manual rack takes less effort to turn than a de-powered powered rack. If you were to take a car with a manual rack to an autocross, you will notice yourself turning the wheel more to get the wheels to turn a certain amount of degrees. A de-powered rack will take less turning of the steering wheel to get that same result.

TitaniumTT

You're wrong. There is no wall with holes in it in the rack. Have you ever dissasembled a PS rack? There are a bunch of seals, but seals with holes in them don't really make effective seals now do they?

Very wrong. Looping the lines is NOTHING like properly de-powering a rack

You're wrong. Depending on the year/model, you could have a 15.2:1 or a 17.something:1. The manual racks are all 20:1. So there are more rotations of the steering wheel / change in steering angle with the manual racks. This is what gives the manual rack the mechanical advantage that it needs without the power assist.

Alot actually. Ever parrallel park your car? The most effective way to move in tight spaces is to turn the wheel when not in motion. So yeah.... alot of times you're turning the wheel while not moving. At speeds, no I don't miss the PS at all.... sometimes when I'm tired, or sore, or hungover and I'm trying to squeek the car around a parking lot, yeah, sometimes I wish I still had the PS. 99% of the time I don't miss it.

Oh, an if you weld the quill solid, you'll "feel the road" alot more with the de-powered 15.2 rack than you will with the 20:1

what?

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Boy o boy...there is a lot of whack info ("info" used generously) in here.

Here's a bit of a primer on how a power rack works that might help...

The rack is divided into two chambers by a seal in the center.
As the steering wheel is turned, pressurized fluid is directed into one side or the other which assists the effort required. This fluid management is handled by valves in the pinion assembly (the section of the rack that the column connects to and has the hose ports)- the valves allow pressurized fluid into one side while bleeding off pressure to the other.

If you remove the power steering belt- or loop the lines- without draining the fluid, you're now pushing fluid through the system absent the help of the pump...basically, your arms are now doing the work that the pump used to perform.
Obviously, this makes for more effort.

Power steering fluid does NOT lubricate the rack, it lubricates the SEALS, helping them contain pressure.

All of the extra seals/valves on a powered rack (necessary to contain the fluid) contribute a lot of drag on movement- no big deal when the power assist is functioning but pretty significant when it's not.

Since it's common for our cars to have larger than stock wheels/tires and smaller diameter steering wheels, the problem is exacerbated when the rack isn't powered (it's all about leverage, kids!) .

I've run all three rack ratios on my street car (the "fast" S4 15:1, the stock S5 17:1- both properly converted to manual- and the true manual 20:1) and much prefer the "slow" 20:1 manual rack.
I found it to be the best compromise between "feel" and "effort".
If you autocross or road race all bets are off, but for a street car the slower rack is the one I'd recommend.

In no case would I find looping the lines acceptable.
If you're going to do it, do it properly.
Anything less isn't a "mod", it's butchery.

TitaniumTT

Excellent post clokker.

This can't be stressed enough. I noticed a significant different in effort with the seals removed. Not only just the main seal in the center, but even the springs in the end seals made a big difference.

When you say properly converted, are you referring to a complete dissasembly, removing all the seals, and welding the quill solid?

That's the problem right there, the fastest rack is great when in motion and for quick transitions on the track. But like I said, the 15.2 rack can get old when trying to park the car or when moving the car at near stopped speeds. On the highway, or cruising around town I really don't miss it. Although in a few weeks I'll be cruising around in a near stock 'vert with the 15.2 PS so I MAY change my feelings, but I don't really think so.

Couldn't agree more. It's utter half-assed butchery. Seen it soo much, driven a few, and it's just aweful, so completely aweful.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Yes...that's the definition of "properly depowered".

TitaniumTT

Well, that's yours and mine, most people I think consider that to be "excessive de-powering"

I have a 17.1 rack that I'm tempted to de-power and toss in. The manual, to me, seemed a little loose but that's leverage for ya.

Remember kids, all this talk of feel/effort, too much too little, whatever, is subjective and someones opinion.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

"Most people" shouldn't be allowed to work on their cars.

TitaniumTT

This is also true.

jjcobm

iTrader: (18)

So you are saying the rack and pinion runs dry without any lubrication and it doesn't need any basically? Last time I checked there was some fluid on the gears and no grease on them when I pulled my rack out and also last time I checked you shouldn't run gears that are going to me meshing with each other dry...

http://www.ehow.com/facts_4928612_wh...ing-fluid.html
http://www.ehow.com/about_5143748_pr...ing-fluid.html

clokker

iTrader: (2)

The pinion and it's shaft get lightly greased, mostly to preserve the lips of the seals.
A little grease certainly won't hurt the teeth on the rack itself but think about it...tain't like there's much movement going on there and what little there is is of a very low speed/frequency.

lonetlan

Well, I'm a man to admit I was wrong.

JustJeff

iTrader: (13)

So the S4 power rack is the better one to do a proper depowering? Purely in terms of quick response. But it will also take more effort than the S5 when moving slowly and parking?

See the question above. The 15 ratio rack will be the hardest to turn? Sorry I'm ADD and there are too many numbers floating around and bright shiny things keeping me from focusing

I was going to toss you a PM as I'm considering following your thread while I'm waiting for my rebuild to come together. Your thread was written 3 or so years ago. How has your depowered rack held up?

jjcobm

iTrader: (18)

The S4 15:1 will be harder to turn when the car isn't moving. The 17:1 will be easier than the 15:1. However, when moving and needing fast response, the 15:1 will have quicker response since you have to turn the steering wheel LESS to achieve a change at the wheels.

The true manual rack, aka 20:1 will be the easiest to turn when standing still. However you need to turn the steering wheel more to achieve a change at the wheels compared to the 15:1 and 17:1

Think of it this way, the higher the first number (i.e. 20, in the 20:1 case) the more mechanical advantage you have to turn the wheels. The lower the number, the less advantage you have.

JustJeff

iTrader: (13)

^ That's what I thought was being said, thanks for confirming.

Sounds like it's like TTT, or somebody said...it comes down to preference between the three.